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Thread: Fidel Castro

  1. #61
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyonhibs View Post
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    Weird aye, unjust aye but nothing on the same scale as for example violently suppressing dissenters, denying the right to free assembly and protest or, in a different part of the world, the wholesale subjugation of women via a variety of heinous means.

    "The West" is far from angelic, particularly on the international stage, but I would be interested to know of anything as indubitably systematic and discriminatory being imposed domestically in the UK in the last 20 years as Castro did to sections of Cuban society that he deemed undesirable.
    Not all within the last 20 years but our Government/Police treatment of the miners and poll-tax protesters wasn't very nice. And it's less than 100 years ago that the Army deployed troops and tanks in George Square. We're lucky that we don't live in a gun culture like they do in the Americas.


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  3. #62
    Coaching Staff lyonhibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    Not all within the last 20 years but our Government/Police treatment of the miners and poll-tax protesters wasn't very nice. And it's less than 100 years ago that the Army deployed troops and tanks in George Square. We're lucky that we don't live in a gun culture like they do in the Americas.
    Point entirely taken and perhaps there was an element of craftiness in my choosing of the time period of 20 yeas but you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere historically when making comparisons here and now in 2016 or else we'd still be saying that the British Army are a bunch of ****s cos Richard of Lionheart + co were a bit naughty during the Crusades.

    My point was that, whilst I do not agree with the judging of absolutely every act of foreign governments through the prism of what we might consider to be right or normal, there are a few unalienable and indisputable pillars of decent, humane society which an absence of can't be explained away by saying "oh, they just do things differently over there"

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    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyonhibs View Post
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    Weird aye, unjust aye but nothing on the same scale as for example violently suppressing dissenters, denying the right to free assembly and protest or, in a different part of the world, the wholesale subjugation of women via a variety of heinous means.

    "The West" is far from angelic, particularly on the international stage, but I would be interested to know of anything as indubitably systematic and discriminatory being imposed domestically in the UK in the last 20 years as Castro did to sections of Cuban society that he deemed undesirable.
    Internment and other wholesale human rights abuses in Ulster in the early 70s? not that long ago. Homosexuality is often cited in relation to Castros Cuba; its often forgotten that homosexuality was illegal in Scotland till 1980, incredibly. I would also make the case that propaganda is just as endemic in our society as in Cuba, although more subtle. Then theres Orgreave. And WMD and Iraq. Cuba has not been engaged in almost constant warfare with and invasion against foreign states as we have. (although Castro did support Mandela's ANC and helped overthrow apartheid when the Tory Govt in London was propping up that regime).

    Its all about how you measure 'angelic' behaviour, I suppose.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Internment and other wholesale human rights abuses in Ulster in the early 70s? not that long ago. Homosexuality is often cited in relation to Castros Cuba; its often forgotten that homosexuality was illegal in Scotland till 1980, incredibly. I would also make the case that propaganda is just as endemic in our society as in Cuba, although more subtle. Then theres Orgreave. And WMD and Iraq. Cuba has not been engaged in almost constant warfare with and invasion against foreign states as we have. (although Castro did support Mandela's ANC and helped overthrow apartheid when the Tory Govt in London was propping up that regime).

    Its all about how you measure 'angelic' behaviour, I suppose.
    2 things, one of which supports your argument, the other of which doesn't.

    1. Cuba was in a virtual state of war for almost 30 years, on the front line of the Cold War. People often forget that particular context.

    2. Its army was engaged in foreign wars, for example in Angola, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Syria and Ethiopia.
    Last edited by CropleyWasGod; 29-11-2016 at 06:03 PM.

  6. #65
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    2 things, one of which supports your argument, the other of which doesn't.

    1. Cuba was in a virtual state of war for almost 30 years, on the front line of the Cold War. People often forget that particular context.

    2. Its army was engaged in foreign wars, for example in Angola, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Syria and Ethiopia.
    1. The most fundamental context of all, you're right.
    2. You're also right about that, fair play (although of course in these conflicts the Cubans were assisting brave freedom fighters, not bloodthirsty terrorists. When defining right and wrong, as Chomsky would tell us, its all about linguistics).

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    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    2 things, one of which supports your argument, the other of which doesn't.

    1. Cuba was in a virtual state of war for almost 30 years, on the front line of the Cold War. People often forget that particular context.

    2. Its army was engaged in foreign wars, for example in Angola, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Syria and Ethiopia.
    Wars of national self-liberation i.e. to overthrow puppet regimes imposed from outside, usually from America. Nicaragua and El Salvador as perfect examples
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Wars of national self-liberation i.e. to overthrow puppet regimes imposed from outside, usually from America. Nicaragua and El Salvador as perfect examples
    I dont think simplistic analysis of the cold war does anyone amy good.

    Rightly or wrongly, communism was our enemy at that time, so any actions to spread communism through the americas need to be viewed through the perspective that the usa had genuine fears about a soviet backed invasion from a trojan horse country. Whether well founded or not.

    Therefore Cuba, propped up and encouraged bu the ussr, trying to spreaf revolution through africa but more importantly, the americas, was a highly provocative act in that context.

    Ultimately neither side was 'good' or 'right', as always in international politics there were just sides with competing interests pursuing them.

    But fidel certainly played the game well...

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    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I dont think simplistic analysis of the cold war does anyone amy good.

    Rightly or wrongly, communism was our enemy at that time, so any actions to spread communism through the americas need to be viewed through the perspective that the usa had genuine fears about a soviet backed invasion from a trojan horse country. Whether well founded or not.

    Therefore Cuba, propped up and encouraged bu the ussr, trying to spreaf revolution through africa but more importantly, the americas, was a highly provocative act in that context.

    Ultimately neither side was 'good' or 'right', as always in international politics there were just sides with competing interests pursuing them.

    But fidel certainly played the game well...
    In the case of el Salvador and Nicaragua (as well as examples like Chile and Iran) America overthrew democratically elected governments in clear breach of international law. We're not talking Cold War here, but the right of people in a sovereign nation to choose their own government. That's the point; and it's hardly surprising the indigenous population mightn't take too kindly to that kind of thing. The Cuban revolution was a consequence of that same kind of thing with Batista. Three times Castro challenged the legitimacy of the regime in the courts, but guess what - the judges said a junta was okay. It's misleading to suggest that the destruction of democratic governments should be understood by the actions of the USA or Soviet Union in the Cold War. Remember, when America was overthrowing those governments, it had the audacity to moralise about 'freedom' and 'democracy'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    In the case of el Salvador and Nicaragua (as well as examples like Chile and Iran) America overthrew democratically elected governments in clear breach of international law. We're not talking Cold War here, but the right of people in a sovereign nation to choose their own government. That's the point; and it's hardly surprising the indigenous population mightn't take too kindly to that kind of thing. The Cuban revolution was a consequence of that same kind of thing with Batista. Three times Castro challenged the legitimacy of the regime in the courts, but guess what - the judges said a junta was okay. It's misleading to suggest that the destruction of democratic governments should be understood by the actions of the USA or Soviet Union in the Cold War. Remember, when America was overthrowing those governments, it had the audacity to moralise about 'freedom' and 'democracy'.
    I'm not defending the USA, and some of their actions in the Americas were terrible, and very hypocritical.

    But their misdeeds dont excuse the other sides misdeeds. And if you think that the USSR and Cuba weren't doing likewise, and backing left-wing coups, parties in elections etc then i think that is naive.

    Also, Fidel was no fan of democracy.

  11. #70
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I'm not defending the USA, and some of their actions in the Americas were terrible, and very hypocritical.

    But their misdeeds dont excuse the other sides misdeeds. And if you think that the USSR and Cuba weren't doing likewise, and backing left-wing coups, parties in elections etc then i think that is naive.

    Also, Fidel was no fan of democracy.
    I wouldn't disagree with any of that. As stated earlier in this thread, I have grave concerns about the authoritarianism in Cuba after 1959. The Cold War was grubby and filled with hypocrisy, and, as usually happens, it was the innocent who suffered most because of power games.
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  12. #71
    I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag... Sir David Gray's Avatar
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    The question that has to be asked is - "Would I have chosen to leave the UK to go and live in Cuba whilst Fidel Castro was in charge?"

    The answer to that question is undoubtedly a no so I think that says it all.
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir David Gray View Post
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    The question that has to be asked is - "Would I have chosen to leave the UK to go and live in Cuba whilst Fidel Castro was in charge?"

    The answer to that question is undoubtedly a no so I think that says it all.
    Of course nobody would have left the UK to live in Cuba. It was a third world country which was then subjected to a half century blockade. But many of us wouldn't leave the UK to live in France or Germany either. I don't think that's the point. For me the question is whether the lives of the great majority of Cubans improved after the removal of Batista and the revolution. The answer seems to be yes, but of course there was repression of dissent, no question.
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    I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag... Sir David Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Of course nobody would have left the UK to live in Cuba. It was a third world country which was then subjected to a half century blockade. But many of us wouldn't leave the UK to live in France or Germany either. I don't think that's the point. For me the question is whether the lives of the great majority of Cubans improved after the removal of Batista and the revolution. The answer seems to be yes, but of course there was repression of dissent, no question.
    A lot of British people have chosen to live and work in France, Germany and many other 21st century countries.

    The repression and lack of basic human rights which blighted the entire reign of Castro cannot be overlooked, despite the positive things he did do. I think a country needs to be judged first and foremost on its basic human rights such as freedom of speech and expression and the presence of free and fair elections. Under Castro that was not allowed unless it was in support of him and his government. Any world leader who turns their nation into a single party state cannot be condoned.
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  15. #74
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir David Gray View Post
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    The question that has to be asked is - "Would I have chosen to leave the UK to go and live in Cuba whilst Fidel Castro was in charge?"

    The answer to that question is undoubtedly a no so I think that says it all.
    It is evidently a 'no' from you. But lots of British people did go and work in Cuba, usually as volunteers, because they supported what was happening in the country. If you like sunshine, swimming in the sea, beautiful people everywhere and left wing politics its not a bad choice! And if you made that decision, you would likely be a supporter of the regime and hence be less likely to be engaged in trying to overthrow him, and hence probably have less reason to be arousing the interest of the Cuban police.

  16. #75
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-brother-raul


    What an egotistical evil *******.

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