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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I would 100% agree that retailers should be allowed to put measures in place to prevent them suffering in some way; in this instance, we're ultimately talking about preventing shoplifting.

    However, you refer to suffering "at the hands of a group of people". They're not suffering at the hands of a group of people; they're suffering at the hands of individuals. Even if, at specific times, those individuals are all from one identifiable group, it's not a legitimate defence to control that whole group when it contains innocent people.

    When I was younger, some kids my age used to shoplift. I'm older now and, based on my experience, far more people my age shoplift than did when I was younger.
    Of course it is justifiable, imagine having your own shop and every day at lunchtime you have so many school children in at one time that you are unable to police their behaviour or identify which of this mass group are stealing. You then decide that if you only allow two in at a time then you can control the situation and help to solve the theft problem. I don't see what you find so hard to understand about that being reasonable.


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  3. #62
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    Of course it is justifiable, imagine having your own shop and every day at lunchtime you have so many school children in at one time that you are unable to police their behaviour or identify which of this mass group are stealing. You then decide that if you only allow two in at a time then you can control the situation and help to solve the theft problem. I don't see what you find so hard to understand about that being reasonable.
    But that's not what the OP is about, this story is about making one subset of individuals endure restricted access whilst another subset enjoys unfettered access. The ONLY difference between the two is the colour of, and the badge on, their blazer.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    But that's not what the OP is about, this story is about making one subset of individuals endure restricted access whilst another subset enjoys unfettered access. The ONLY difference between the two is the colour of, and the badge on, their blazer.
    But surely the one group have caused bother previously hence the action against them.
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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    Of course it is justifiable, imagine having your own shop and every day at lunchtime you have so many school children in at one time that you are unable to police their behaviour or identify which of this mass group are stealing. You then decide that if you only allow two in at a time then you can control the situation and help to solve the theft problem. I don't see what you find so hard to understand about that being reasonable.
    I understand what you're saying, but it's discriminatory and illegal. The reason it's discriminatory and illegal is because you're victimising innocent people (and treating them unfavourably in comparison to other people) based purely on the characteristic they share with the people who are causing a problem; a characteristic they have no control over.

    The problem you are describing is that you have too many people in the shop to be able to prevent shoplifting. Would the same situation not occur with too many adults rather than too many children?

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    But surely the one group have caused bother previously hence the action against them.
    From what I gather, no bother, just purely a numbers thing.
    I'm all for business owners protecting their interests but Tesco's are wrong here. Either make all school kids queue or none at all. To pick one school over another is discrimination,,,nothing else.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I understand what you're saying, but it's discriminatory and illegal. The reason it's discriminatory and illegal is because you're victimising innocent people (and treating them unfavourably in comparison to other people) based purely on the characteristic they share with the people who are causing a problem; a characteristic they have no control over.

    The problem you are describing is that you have too many people in the shop to be able to prevent shoplifting. Would the same situation not occur with too many adults rather than too many children?
    Yes and if you have a regular group of adults who arrive every day and cause problems then you would also put in a system to control them and protect your business.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    Yes and if you have a regular group of adults who arrive every day and cause problems then you would also put in a system to control them and protect your business.
    So, to refer back to an example from a previous post, if you had a shoplifter who came in to your shop after morning mass with a group from the local church, you'd make all Christians queue whilst other customers came in unrestricted?

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    So, to refer back to an example from a previous post, if you had a shoplifter who came in to your shop after morning mass with a group from the local church, you'd make all Christians queue whilst other customers came in unrestricted?
    No but if every week the local group from the church came into my shop and caused havoc and I was unable to identify who was actually doing the thieving,I would take steps to ensure I could control them. If I knew one of them was a shoplifter I would ban him/her from entering anyway.
    Last edited by Sleeping Scouse; 26-11-2016 at 09:38 PM.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    No but if every week the local group from the church came into my shop and caused havoc and I was unable to identify who was actually doing the thieving,I would take steps to ensure I could control them. If I knew one of them was a shoplifter I would ban him/her from entering anyway.
    Exactly. If you knew who was doing the stealing, you would ban the individual.

    If you didn't know who was doing the stealing, but you knew the time of day it was happening, you would control the crowd at that time of day. You wouldn't make an assumption about who was doing the stealing based on the demographics of the crowd...because that would be discriminatory.

  11. #70
    There's EU legislation that actually prohibits this kind of thing from occurring. Tesco are lawfully wrong here. People who are saying that businesses are within their right to do this are actually wrong. It's in direct breach of the equality act to treat a group of people differently than another group.

    They are however within their right to act on an individual basis and ban individuals who are caught actively breaking the law on their premises. They can't however tarnish an entire group of people under the same brush based on age/colour/creed/gender/appearance.... etc. They must act on a case by case basis.

  12. #71
    @hibs.net private member calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    There's EU legislation that actually prohibits this kind of thing from occurring. Tesco are lawfully wrong here. People who are saying that businesses are within their right to do this are actually wrong. It's in direct breach of the equality act to treat a group of people differently than another group.

    They are however within their right to act on an individual basis and ban individuals who are caught actively breaking the law on their premises. They can't however tarnish an entire group of people under the same brush based on age/colour/creed/gender/appearance.... etc. They must act on a case by case basis.
    100%. If they want to control access so they can police shoplifting then that's fine, make people queue outside and let them in 2 at a time or however many you feel you can handle at a time - absolutely nothing wrong with that. However that queue needs to also contain the office workers from round the corner, who by the way, judging from my work anyway, may have a scary amount of people who don't see an issue with scanning through their 80p muffin from the in store bakery as a 30p morning roll on the self serve machine (it's not just kids that steal, adults are just as bad). It should also contain the mum with her infant child and a buggy who's coming to pick up milk, the pensioner who's coming for his papers and also the school kids on their lunch. Not just the school kids.

  13. #72
    @hibs.net private member calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    Some naive comments on this thread. Tesco in Leith has to make school kids queue, or else they walk out with half the shop. Sure it was the same when the Co-op was there.
    It's not naive. Nobody is debating the fact that some of these kids might steal things. However the majority of them wouldn't, and to be made to queue outside based on their age, something they have no control over, is discriminatory and illegal. If the store can't handle a crowd of that size then they're quite entitled to make customers queue outside. It should however be all customers.

  14. #73
    @hibs.net private member silverhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    Some naive comments on this thread. Tesco in Leith has to make school kids queue, or else they walk out with half the shop. Sure it was the same when the Co-op was there.
    And the same is done at the Tesco at Davidson Mains, the kids are made to queue and they are not allowed to take in there rucksack or any school bag to the shop, the reason being is when they were letting them all in at once there was a lot of shoplifting taking place and it wasn't the mums or grannies who were doing it, Tesco had to do something about it and now they allow a few in at a time and they leave there bags at the front door where the security guy or member of staff deal with the crazy hour at lunch time.
    Pretty sure Greggs around the corner also have 2 queues at school lunch time, one for school kids and the other for anyone else.

  15. #74
    Coaching Staff Betty Boop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverhibee View Post
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    And the same is done at the Tesco at Davidson Mains, the kids are made to queue and they are not allowed to take in there rucksack or any school bag to the shop, the reason being is when they were letting them all in at once there was a lot of shoplifting taking place and it wasn't the mums or grannies who were doing it, Tesco had to do something about it and now they allow a few in at a time and they leave there bags at the front door where the security guy or member of staff deal with the crazy hour at lunch time.
    Pretty sure Greggs around the corner also have 2 queues at school lunch time, one for school kids and the other for anyone else.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by calumhibee1 View Post
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    It's not naive. Nobody is debating the fact that some of these kids might steal things. However the majority of them wouldn't, and to be made to queue outside based on their age, something they have no control over, is discriminatory and illegal. If the store can't handle a crowd of that size then they're quite entitled to make customers queue outside. It should however be all customers.

    No it shouldn't be all customers.


    Age discrimination ban:

    The ban does not apply in respect of children aged under 18. This means that people and organisations can continue to provide different services at different rates or on different terms and conditions for children of different ages, or can refuse to serve children – for example, 'no children' hotels can continue as now and newsagents can still restrict the number of children entering their shops.This ban does not cover age discrimination by employers against employees – such discrimination was banned several years ago and this is not affected by the ban in the provision of services.
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  17. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    No it shouldn't be all customers.


    Age discrimination ban:

    The ban does not apply in respect of children aged under 18. This means that people and organisations can continue to provide different services at different rates or on different terms and conditions for children of different ages, or can refuse to serve children for example, 'no children' hotels can continue as now and newsagents can still restrict the number of children entering their shops.This ban does not cover age discrimination by employers against employees such discrimination was banned several years ago and this is not affected by the ban in the provision of services.
    Fair play - I did not realise that (quite evidently) and I humbly apologise.

    Does it say anything about uniforms?

  18. #77
    @hibs.net private member calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    No it shouldn't be all customers.


    Age discrimination ban:

    The ban does not apply in respect of children aged under 18. This means that people and organisations can continue to provide different services at different rates or on different terms and conditions for children of different ages, or can refuse to serve children for example, 'no children' hotels can continue as now and newsagents can still restrict the number of children entering their shops.This ban does not cover age discrimination by employers against employees such discrimination was banned several years ago and this is not affected by the ban in the provision of services.
    As Future17 says, apologies. I'm very surprised that is the case though, especially all the way up to 18 years of age.

  19. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    Fair play - I did not realise that (quite evidently) and I humbly apologise.

    Does it say anything about uniforms?

    No need for apologies mate, some very valid points being raised and a very interesting topic of conversation given the recent bad press. As for uniforms it only says that women over a certain age shouldn't attempt to dress up to please their men
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  20. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    No need for apologies mate, some very valid points being raised and a very interesting topic of conversation given the recent bad press. As for uniforms it only says that women over a certain age shouldn't attempt to dress up to please their men
    And there was me thinking I'd finished my Christmas shopping...

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