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  1. #61
    Puppet of the board Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    Hypothetically speaking, should the situation arise where a Christian organisation approached a 'gay bar' to display a pro same sex marriage poster or leaflets etc, would they have any grounds to refuse to display said poster along side their other posters/leaflets? If they refused to display it due to disagreeing with the message, would they be guilty of discrimination?
    I think bars and shops can refuse to display posters etc without reason.

    The bar isn't selling a poster display service.

    Also, same sex marriage is already legal and well established. I assume that any pro same sex marriage poster would also have an anti gay marriage message so the gay bar would be well within their right to tell them to do one.
    Last edited by Hibbyradge; 26-10-2016 at 07:49 PM.


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  3. #62
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    Hypothetically speaking, should the situation arise where a Christian organisation approached a 'gay bar' to display a pro same sex marriage poster or leaflets etc, would they have any grounds to refuse to display said poster along side their other posters/leaflets? If they refused to display it due to disagreeing with the message, would they be guilty of discrimination?
    Again your mistaking homosexuality as being a lifestyle choice, it isn't. If the church really wanted equality then they'd pay their taxes like everyone else.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Again your mistaking homosexuality as being a lifestyle choice, it isn't. If the church really wanted equality then they'd pay their taxes like everyone else.
    Not sure I quite get your point.

    What do taxes have to do with anything?

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    I think bars and shops can refuse to display posters etc without reason.

    The bar isn't selling a poster display service.

    Also, same sex marriage is already legal and well established. I assume that any pro same sex marriage poster would also have an anti gay marriage message so the gay bar would be well within their right to tell them to do one.

    When you put it like that I can see there isn't really a comparison. It is a tricky one and quite difficult to make an example to see it from the other side. Perhaps there isn't.

  6. #65
    Ireland's Greatest Import Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    When you put it like that I can see there isn't really a comparison. It is a tricky one and quite difficult to make an example to see it from the other side. Perhaps there isn't.
    I don't think there is. The inequality that exists in NI for LGBT couples is a shame upon the provence though. The fact that it's such a political hot potato (due to the influence of religious zealots imo) that the MLA's in Stormont won't even properly debate having a referendum on gay marriage, let alone call one speaks volumes about how backward thinking this place is at the moment.

    It's quite sad really as I believe that a public vote on the matter would be carried.

  7. #66
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    I do think that in certain circumstances peoples personal beliefs should be taken into account. For example a guest house where the owners are Christian wouldn't allow an unmarried straight couple to share a bed and they almost certainly wouldn't want a Gay couple to do so either married or not, in both cases because what they believe doesn't allow it.

    In the case of this cake it seems to me that the people who wanted it made chose this bakery because they knew it would say no, the cake wasn't a wedding cake, it was a cake saying 'support gay marriage' ..... how many wedding cakes has anybody seen that said 'support marriage' gay or otherwise on it?

    In reality the logical outcome of cases like these is that devout Christians, or Muslims for that matter, are effectively barred from running guest houses and now bakeries it would appear ...... gay rights groups will no doubt target any business they are aware of run by Christians on the back of recent events like this one and the famous Christian guest house case ..... at what point does it stop being Gays persecuted by Christians and start being Christians persecuted by Gays?

    Just for the record I'm not against Gay marriage or Gay people for that matter, people are what they are and get on with it I say. But people also have their religious beliefs and to them they are just as real, just as important, as the rights of people to exercise their right to their sexuality.

    The law says its illegal to discriminate against people because of their religion or their sexuality ..... Is it not discrimination to force people who practice a religion to do something that flies directly in the face of their beliefs in order to prevent discrimination against another set of people. If you say, yes they must, then as I said you are giving them a choice between being able to run a business or adhering to their religious beliefs, but not both and if you ask me that's as clear a case of discrimination as you can find.

    Talk about a catch 22 situation.
    Last edited by NAE NOOKIE; 27-10-2016 at 06:47 PM.

  8. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE View Post
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    I do think that in certain circumstances peoples personal beliefs should be taken into account. For example a guest house where the owners are Christian wouldn't allow an unmarried straight couple to share a bed and they almost certainly wouldn't want a Gay couple to do so either married or not, in both cases because what they believe doesn't allow it.

    In the case of this cake it seems to me that the people who wanted it made chose this bakery because they knew it would say no, the cake wasn't a wedding cake, it was a cake saying 'support gay marriage' ..... how many wedding cakes has anybody seen that said 'support marriage' gay or otherwise on it?

    In reality the logical outcome of cases like these is that devout Christians, or Muslims for that matter, are effectively barred from running guest houses and now bakeries it would appear ...... gay rights groups will no doubt target any business they are aware of run by Christians on the back of recent events like this one and the famous Christian guest house case ..... at what point does it stop being Gays persecuted by Christians and start being Christians persecuted by Gays?

    Just for the record I'm not against Gay marriage or Gay people for that matter, people are what they are and get on with it I say. But people also have their religious beliefs and to them they are just as real, just as important, as the rights of people to exercise their right to their sexuality.

    The law says its illegal to discriminate against people because of their religion or their sexuality ..... Is it not discrimination to force people who practice a religion to do something that flies directly in the face of their beliefs in order to prevent discrimination against another set of people. If you say, yes they must, then as I said you are giving them a choice between being able to run a business or adhering to their religious beliefs, but not both and if you ask me that's as clear a case of discrimination as you can find.

    Talk about a catch 22 situation.
    That's what I meant to say!!😉

  9. #68
    Ireland's Greatest Import Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE View Post
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    at what point does it stop being Gays persecuted by Christians and start being Christians persecuted by Gays?
    In the case of northern ireland a balance will only be found if and when the law catches up with the rest of the UK (and ROI too of course) and same sex marriage is allowed. Jeez when you're doing worse than the holy republic for having your laws dictated by those hiding their bigotry behind the untouchable shroud of religious belief then alarm bells should be ringing loud imo.

    Maybe at that point "gays (might) start persecuting christians". I doubt it though. They just want what the rest of us take for granted.

  10. #69
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE View Post
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    I do think that in certain circumstances peoples personal beliefs should be taken into account. For example a guest house where the owners are Christian wouldn't allow an unmarried straight couple to share a bed and they almost certainly wouldn't want a Gay couple to do so either married or not, in both cases because what they believe doesn't allow it.

    In the case of this cake it seems to me that the people who wanted it made chose this bakery because they knew it would say no, the cake wasn't a wedding cake, it was a cake saying 'support gay marriage' ..... how many wedding cakes has anybody seen that said 'support marriage' gay or otherwise on it?

    In reality the logical outcome of cases like these is that devout Christians, or Muslims for that matter, are effectively barred from running guest houses and now bakeries it would appear ...... gay rights groups will no doubt target any business they are aware of run by Christians on the back of recent events like this one and the famous Christian guest house case ..... at what point does it stop being Gays persecuted by Christians and start being Christians persecuted by Gays?

    Just for the record I'm not against Gay marriage or Gay people for that matter, people are what they are and get on with it I say. But people also have their religious beliefs and to them they are just as real, just as important, as the rights of people to exercise their right to their sexuality.

    The law says its illegal to discriminate against people because of their religion or their sexuality ..... Is it not discrimination to force people who practice a religion to do something that flies directly in the face of their beliefs in order to prevent discrimination against another set of people. If you say, yes they must, then as I said you are giving them a choice between being able to run a business or adhering to their religious beliefs, but not both and if you ask me that's as clear a case of discrimination as you can find.

    Talk about a catch 22 situation.

    Eloquently put, and a succinct description of why this is such a difficult situation to get to grips with.

  11. #70
    Ireland's Greatest Import Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    Eloquently put, and a succinct description of why this is such a difficult situation to get to grips with.
    This post from earlier in the thread simplifies it. At least from a legal point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYHibby View Post
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    this case is not about a clash of protected beliefs. It is about a for profit limited company discriminating. The lower court judge clearly explained this point. The "appellant conducted a business for profit and was not a religious organization. She held that it could not therefore avail of the specific exemption for such organisations in Regulation 16 of the 2006 Regulations."

    The business provided less favourable treatment on the basis of a protected personal characteristic and thus was in breach of the relevant legislation.

  12. #71
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYHibby View Post
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    For anyone else reading this, this cases is not about a clash of protected beliefs and is thus not particularly interesting. It is about a for profit limited company discriminating. The lower court judge clearly explained this point. The "appellant conducted a business for profit and was not a religious organization. She held that it could not therefore avail of the specific exemption for such organisations in Regulation 16 of the 2006 Regulations."

    The business provided less favourable treatment on the basis of a protected personal characteristic and thus was in breach of the relevant legislation. A pretty straight forward case.
    But the bakery didn't refuse to bake a cake ... it refused to bake a cake with a particular message on it which the owners of the bakery didn't ( couldn't ) agree with. The judges assertion that the bakery wasn't a 'religious organization' and therefor not exempt under the regulations may well be correct in law, but it still has the same affect for the bakery owners and people like them as I outlined in my previous post ....... It puts people with strong religious beliefs in a position where if they want to run a 'for profit business' ( what 'business' that is a persons living isn't? ) then they can be forced to do things that to them are against that religion and if they don't then they cannot run a business.

    That's as clear a case of a law designed to prevent discrimination against one group being used to discriminate against another as you can get. The fact here is that the people who ordered this cake were not asking the bakery to bake a cake to be used at a wedding, or if they were it was purely coincidental. What they were asking the bakery to do was bake a cake with a message on it that was totally at odds with what the owners believed in. If they wanted a wedding cake then all the had to do was order a wedding cake ..... who the hell goes into a bakery and asks for a cake for a straight or gay wedding, what they ask for is a wedding cake ..... and who the hell has a slogan or political message on their wedding cake anyway?

    If the bakery had simply refused to bake a cake because it was for a gay wedding then I would be slightly more sympathetic to the people who brought this case ... The fact that they asked the bakery to bake a cake advocating 'support' for something their religion tells them is wrong ( whether you agree with that or not ) may have been a great idea as far as the winners of this case were concerned, to me what they did was unfair to the bakery and just replacing one form of discrimination with another ..... even if the law says it wasn't.

  13. #72
    Ireland's Greatest Import Mr White's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting article about the real injustice at that the heart of this issue in northern ireland. The bakery and those supporting them are simply not the ones being discriminated against here. That the DUP are actively blocking democratic process on the issue is outrageous imo. But not surprising.

    "Last year,a majority of MLAs voted in favour of same-sex marriage but the motion was blocked by the DUP when it deployed the petition."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37791366
    Last edited by Mr White; 28-10-2016 at 07:53 AM.

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