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    @hibs.net private member GlesgaeHibby's Avatar
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    Bakers Lose 'Gay Cake' Appeal

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37748681

    It's an interesting case. Wonder how the courts would have acted had it been a gay baker refusing to bake a cake with a message saying 'Don't support gay marriage'.


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  3. #2
    @hibs.net private member oldbutdim's Avatar
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    Has anyone made a pathetic reference to "a fairy cake" yet or am I the first?

  4. #3
    @hibs.net private member Scouse Hibby's Avatar
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    What a load of nonsense,fairy cakes and puff pastry will be outlawed soon.

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    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Whilst I completely disagree with the opinions held by the owners of the bakery about religion and homosexuality - I do think they should be allowed to choose their customers/jobs as they desire.

    If I was running a good bakery and was quite busy with orders and someone asked me to make a Hearts cake - I could say no on those grounds of I wanted.
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  6. #5
    @hibs.net private member GlesgaeHibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    Whilst I completely disagree with the opinions held by the owners of the bakery about religion and homosexuality - I do think they should be allowed to choose their customers/jobs as they desire.

    If I was running a good bakery and was quite busy with orders and someone asked me to make a Hearts cake - I could say no on those grounds of I wanted.
    Exactly, if I owned a bakery and somebody asked me to bake a Hearts cake, or a Vote Tory cake, better together cake etc. I would (politely) refuse.

  7. #6
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    Whilst I completely disagree with the opinions held by the owners of the bakery about religion and homosexuality - I do think they should be allowed to choose their customers/jobs as they desire.

    If I was running a good bakery and was quite busy with orders and someone asked me to make a Hearts cake - I could say no on those grounds of I wanted.
    It's not illegal to discriminate on grounds of football allegiance.
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby View Post
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37748681

    It's an interesting case. Wonder how the courts would have acted had it been a gay baker refusing to bake a cake with a message saying 'Don't support gay marriage'.
    It is a funny one. As I understand it, there are laws against religious intolerance. There are also laws to protect lgbt people from intolerance. If I am saying your beliefs are a load of ****, surely that works both ways?

  9. #8
    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    I used to think that Bert and Ernie were just pals who shared a bed.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby View Post
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    Exactly, if I owned a bakery and somebody asked me to bake a Hearts cake, or a Vote Tory cake, better together cake etc. I would (politely) refuse.
    The judgement is quite clear though that it was the matter of sexual orientation that resulted in the cancellation of the order and that the law defends those orientations from being discriminated against.

    As far as I am aware there is no such law protecting political or sporting allegiance.

    The more pertinent question is maybe if the complainant was directly discriminated against because he was gay...seems to me the cake shop didn't like the message so said no on those grounds, not on the fact that the complainant was gay.

  11. #10
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    It's not illegal to discriminate on grounds of football allegiance.
    Fair enough. I maybe shouldn't have made that comparison.

    I just don't think they should be forced to write something they don't wish to write - no matter how backwards their thinking on the matter is.

  12. #11
    I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag... Sir David Gray's Avatar
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    The ruling is a disgrace and an affront to freedom of thought and expression.

    The couple are quite right to take the appeal to a higher court.
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    @hibs.net private member GlesgaeHibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    The judgement is quite clear though that it was the matter of sexual orientation that resulted in the cancellation of the order and that the law defends those orientations from being discriminated against.

    As far as I am aware there is no such law protecting political or sporting allegiance.

    The more pertinent question is maybe if the complainant was directly discriminated against because he was gay...seems to me the cake shop didn't like the message so said no on those grounds, not on the fact that the complainant was gay.
    I guess you could argue it was a political statement though, as was the case not to the fore at the time Ireland had a referendum on gay marriage?It's quite clear which way the Bakers were voting, so why should they have to bake a cake promoting something they were going to the ballot box to vote against?

    Agree on your last point - they refused sale on the content of message, not because the complainant was gay - as evidenced from their comments today:

    "If equality law means people can be punished for politely refusing to support other people's causes then equality law needs to change," he said.
    Jump media player
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    Media caption'Gay cake' case: Christian bakers Ashers lose appeal"We had served Mr Lee before and we would be happy to serve him again.
    "The judges accepted that we did not know that Mr Lee was gay and that he was not the reason we declined the order.
    "We have always said it was not about the customer, it was about the message."
    Last edited by GlesgaeHibby; 24-10-2016 at 08:23 PM.

  14. #13
    @hibs.net private member Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby View Post
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    I guess you could argue it was a political statement though, as was the case not to the fore at the time Ireland had a referendum on gay marriage?It's quite clear which way the Bakers were voting, so why should they have to bake a cake promoting something they were going to the ballot box to vote against?

    Agree on your last point - they refused sale on the content of message, not because the complainant was gay - as evidenced from their comments today:

    "If equality law means people can be punished for politely refusing to support other people's causes then equality law needs to change," he said.
    Jump media player
    Media player help

    Out of media player. Press enter to return or tab to continue.


    Media caption'Gay cake' case: Christian bakers Ashers lose appeal"We had served Mr Lee before and we would be happy to serve him again.
    "The judges accepted that we did not know that Mr Lee was gay and that he was not the reason we declined the order.
    "We have always said it was not about the customer, it was about the message."
    The bakers are from Northern Ireland, the vote was in ROI only. The issue of gay marriage is a difficult one in NI. Not only does it highlight the fact that the region is now officially the most bigoted part of the British Isles, it also shows that religion is like a horrible weight stopping real progression in society over here.

    I've heard a few people here say they think the couple have been set up to highlight the issue and it wouldn't surprise me.
    Last edited by Mr White; 24-10-2016 at 08:54 PM.

  15. #14
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    Whilst I completely disagree with the opinions held by the owners of the bakery about religion and homosexuality - I do think they should be allowed to choose their customers/jobs as they desire.

    If I was running a good bakery and was quite busy with orders and someone asked me to make a Hearts cake - I could say no on those grounds of I wanted.
    So they could refuse black customers, then?

  16. #15
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    I used to think that Bert and Ernie were just pals who shared a bed.
    Just like Eric and Ernie.

    What is it about Ernies?

  17. #16
    @hibs.net private member Speedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    So they could refuse black customers, then?
    It's not quite as simple as that though.

    This is a case of religious beliefs (which are protected) conflicting with sexual orientation (also protected). It's an interesting case.

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  19. #18
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MB Crunch View Post
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    It's not quite as simple as that though.

    This is a case of religious beliefs (which are protected) conflicting with sexual orientation (also protected). It's an interesting case.
    Presumably they would be fine about a Muslim shop worker refusing to serve them their bacon.

  20. #19
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MB Crunch View Post
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    It's not quite as simple as that though.

    This is a case of religious beliefs (which are protected) conflicting with sexual orientation (also protected). It's an interesting case.
    Is it about their beliefs though? A cake making business doesn't automatically support/believe the messages they put on their cakes. They could easily have made the cake, but held on to their belief that gay marriage is wrong. Making the cake wouldn't have automatically signed them up to a LGBT support association.

  21. #20
    It's a tricky one.

    On the one hand as a supporter of marriage equality my natural inclination is to have absolutely no sympathy for the bakery.

    On the othrr hand is there any proof, or even suggestion, that they refused to serve this customer on the basis of his sexuality? Ultimately 'support gay marriage' is a political statement and if it's a stance the bakery opposes surely they have the right to refuse to promote it? No matter how small the impact would be (and arguably it's had a far bigger impact with them refusing the job).

    Whilst I don't believe anyone should be discriminated against based on their sexuality I'm not sure that is the case here. As far as I can tell the customer wasn't refused service because he happened to be gay, I'd wager the bakery knowingly and unknowingly serves gay people every single day, but rather because they were being asked to promote a politcal viewpoint they disagreed with.
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  23. #22
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    It's a tricky one.

    On the one hand as a supporter of marriage equality my natural inclination is to have absolutely no sympathy for the bakery.

    On the othrr hand is there any proof, or even suggestion, that they refused to serve this customer on the basis of his sexuality? Ultimately 'support gay marriage' is a political statement and if it's a stance the bakery opposes surely they have the right to refuse to promote it? No matter how small the impact would be (and arguably it's had a far bigger impact with them refusing the job).

    Whilst I don't believe anyone should be discriminated against based on their sexuality I'm not sure that is the case here. As far as I can tell the customer wasn't refused service because he happened to be gay, I'd wager the bakery knowingly and unknowingly serves gay people every single day, but rather because they were being asked to promote a politcal viewpoint they disagreed with.
    That's exactly how I see it.

    I wonder if this happened by coincidence or whether the baker's stance was known and he was targetted as a result.

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    I wonder if this happened by coincidence or whether the baker's stance was known and he was targetted as a result.
    That has been suggested frequently over here since the story first broke last year.

  25. #24
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr White View Post
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    That has been suggested frequently over here since the story first broke last year.
    If that's the case then it's a pity that they didn't use their time, money and energy to promote their cause in a positive way instead of looking for confrontation, which can only lead to further polarisation.

  26. #25
    @hibs.net private member Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    If that's the case then it's a pity that they didn't use their time, money and energy to promote their cause in a positive way instead of looking for confrontation, which can only lead to further polarisation.
    That's a fair point. I do feel LGBT activists in NI have every right to feel aggrieved at the provence being the only part of the UK and Ireland where same sex couples can't marry, though I agree re the confrontation aspect and also if this was a deliberate act then it was unfair on the couple running the bakery.

    Though on the other hand they've drawn attention to the reason why NI is now officially the most bigoted part of these isles (enshrined in law on this particular subject): religion and it's disproportionate hold over policy and society in general in Northern Ireland.
    Last edited by Mr White; 25-10-2016 at 10:51 AM.

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    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Presumably they would be fine about a Muslim shop worker refusing to serve them their bacon.
    I don't think your analogy works.

    Why would the Muslim shopkeeper stock bacon in the first place if he wasn't going to sell ut?

    If he stocked something, butvrefused to sell ut to a customer because they were, say Catholic, that could be an offence.
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  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    If that's the case then it's a pity that they didn't use their time, money and energy to promote their cause in a positive way instead of looking for confrontation, which can only lead to further polarisation.
    I disagre, Peev. I think they've done a power if good for their cause, whether or not it was a deliberate ploy.

    They've succeeded in promoting their own rights in law.

    They also have the BBC and world media discussing the issue of LGBT rights in NI.

    Oh, and if they did pick on homophobes deliberately, good.

  29. #28
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr White View Post
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    That's a fair point. I do feel LGBT activists in NI have every right to feel aggrieved at the provence being the only part of the UK and Ireland where same sex couples can't marry, though I agree re the confrontation aspect and also if this was a deliberate act then it was unfair on the couple running the bakery.

    Though on the other hand they've drawn attention to the reason why NI is now officially the most bigoted part of these isles (enshrined in law on this particular subject): religion and it's disproportionate hold over policy and society in general in Northern Ireland.
    ... and the only place in the UK where it's illegal to buy sex.

  30. #29
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    I disagre, Peev. I think they've done a power if good for their cause, whether or not it was a deliberate ploy.

    They've succeeded in promoting their own rights in law.

    They also have the BBC and world media discussing the issue of LGBT rights in NI.

    Oh, and if they did pick on homophobes deliberately, good.
    I don't think you have to be homophobic to be against gay marriage. There are people who have no ill feeling toward homosexuals but have certain views on what marriage is about.

    I know gays who, in this day of legally reckognised civil unions, aren't fussed about the marriage thing.

  31. #30
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    I don't think you have to be homophobic to be against gay marriage. There are people who have no ill feeling toward homosexuals but have certain views on what marriage is about.

    I know gays who, in this day of legally reckognised civil unions, aren't fussed about the marriage thing.
    Fair enough. I would disagree with them, but they have the right to an opinion.

    I don't know what the bakers attitudes are, but I do believe that what the guy who ordered the cake did gave the issue much more publicity than if they'd campaigned another way.
    Last edited by Hibbyradge; 25-10-2016 at 12:58 PM.

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