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  1. #151
    Scottish Cup Victory - Witness 2016 Scouse Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy74 View Post
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    In the same way if it was an allegation of rape and the man charged made a statement to police that she had specifically asked to go to a shop doorway then yes it would be pretty relevant.

    Its kind of how statements and evidence works. It doesn't mean he would be not guilty but would be relevant along with all other evidence to give a picture of what may have happened.
    That's the whole point by allowing her sexual preferences to be made public,women may now be afraid to report sexually related crimes due to their private life being dragged up,totally wrong and a major setback to the system of investigating such crimes. It's totally irrelevant that someone dragged off and raped has had sex in a similar location previously.


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  3. #152
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    That's the whole point by allowing her sexual preferences to be made public,women may now be afraid to report sexually related crimes due to their private life being dragged up,totally wrong and a major setback to the system of investigating such crimes. It's totally irrelevant that someone dragged off and raped has had sex in a similar location previously.

    They would only be afraid if they were lying about the rape, if it's non consensual then the rapist would not have any knowledge of the girls sexual preferences, knowing details like what she says and her preferred positions usually means consent was given.

    I disagree with the sneaky way in which he had sex with her but it seems obvious that consent was given, I also find it strange that even till this day she has never accused anyone of raping her, the police and prosecutors took this matter up and went ahead with the case.

  4. #153
    Scottish Cup Victory - Witness 2016 Scouse Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    They would only be afraid if they were lying about the rape, if it's non consensual then the rapist would not have any knowledge of the girls sexual preferences, knowing details like what she says and her preferred positions usually means consent was given.

    I disagree with the sneaky way in which he had sex with her but it seems obvious that consent was given, I also find it strange that even till this day she has never accused anyone of raping her, the police and prosecutors took this matter up and went ahead with the case.
    Not necessarily,scenario where girl tells guy she likes it in shop doorways only to tell him to stop once there and tben he rapes here. Comes out in court that she does regularly have sex in shop doorways so must have been consensual. This is the danger.
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  5. #154
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    Not necessarily,scenario where girl tells guy she likes it in shop doorways only to tell him to stop once there and tben he rapes here. Comes out in court that she does regularly have sex in shop doorways so must have been consensual. This is the danger.
    Quote Originally Posted by HibeeN View Post
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    But this is so circumstantial. I'm sure many women have told previous partners at least once to go harder, or suggested doggy style as it's probably one of the better positions for women. And if a rapist was trying to say the sex was consensual, of course he's going to say something like "she told me she wanted it this way, to go harder etc". The rapist doesn't need knowledge of the girl's sexual preferences, he can just assume that she's probably had this kind of sex before and then claim it's the same here.

    So in this scenario, a man can rape a woman doggy-style, tell the police she wanted it that way and asked him to go harder, and when it's discovered that the woman had doggy style with previous partners and asked them to go harder, it's somehow proof that it was consensual. That's why it's so damaging to bring up the victim's history.


    I'm not saying I agree with any of it, I'm trying to understand what is and isn't acceptable both as evidence and the truth as there seems to be a lot of grey areas surrounding this case. The one thing that still I don't understand is the woman in question has never claimed or accused anyone of rape, the public prosecutor brought he charges not her.

  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by HibeeN View Post
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    But this is so circumstantial. I'm sure many women have told previous partners at least once to go harder, or suggested doggy style as it's probably one of the better positions for women. And if a rapist was trying to say the sex was consensual, of course he's going to say something like "she told me she wanted it this way, to go harder etc". The rapist doesn't need knowledge of the girl's sexual preferences, he can just assume that she's probably had this kind of sex before and then claim it's the same here.

    So in this scenario, a man can rape a woman doggy-style, tell the police she wanted it that way and asked him to go harder, and when it's discovered that the woman had doggy style with previous partners and asked them to go harder, it's somehow proof that it was consensual. That's why it's so damaging to bring up the victim's history.
    Well that would be some coincidence then considering the accused would have no prior knowledge of those facts.

    These facts were deemed relevant to the case by a senior (female) appeals court judge. I'm inclined to believe she thought they were relevant and material to the case in hand and thus allowed them to be heard in the retrial because they were urmm relevant and material to the case.

    I'm all for protecting the alleged victim but there needs to be a proportional allowance for the accused to defend themselves...in this case as stated senior judges decided that the evidence was required for the accused to do so.

  7. #156
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Well that would be some coincidence then considering the accused would have no prior knowledge of those facts.

    These facts were deemed relevant to the case by a senior (female) appeals court judge. I'm inclined to believe she thought they were relevant and material to the case in hand and thus allowed them to be heard in the retrial because they were urmm relevant and material to the case.

    I'm all for protecting the alleged victim but there needs to be a proportional allowance for the accused to defend themselves...in this case as stated senior judges decided that the evidence was required for the accused to do so.
    Is it relevant that the senior appeals court judge was female?

  8. #157
    @hibs.net private member silverhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    I'm not saying I agree with any of it, I'm trying to understand what is and isn't acceptable both as evidence and the truth as there seems to be a lot of grey areas surrounding this case. The one thing that still I don't understand is the woman in question has never claimed or accused anyone of rape, the public prosecutor brought he charges not her.
    Victim doesn't have to make a complaint for someone to be charged with an offence.

  9. #158
    @hibs.net private member silverhibee's Avatar
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    Can the crown appeal this decision.


  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    Is it relevant that the senior appeals court judge was female?
    In my personal opinion yes it is.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newry Hibs View Post
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    An interesting blog on this...

    Evans is a class A tosser, but his morals weren't on trial.
    https://thesecretbarrister.com/2016/...ed-evans-case/
    This article is the most sensible and balanced thing I have read on the case and highlights just how misleading a lot of the stuff being trotted out is. For example:

    A special mention goes to the raft of claims in the press that this case sets a new, special precedent allowing the sexual history of complainants to be admitted in evidence in any future case, solely for the purpose of shaming the complainant in a dark return to the 1970s. Allow me to help: The precedent that has been set is none. The Court of Appeal decision sets down no new application of law or principle, and section 41 continues to operate exactly as it did before, excluding the vast, vast majority of questions about previous sexual behaviour. The newspapers, activists and charities propagating this false message are needlessly terrifying present and future victims, and will only risk deterring them from coming forward.

  12. #162
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverhibee View Post
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    Victim doesn't have to make a complaint for someone to be charged with an offence.

    I understand that SH, just seems very weird that the woman in questioned hasn't claimed anything untoward happened that night but they thought a case could be held against Evans and McDonald.

  13. #163
    Testimonial Due Victor Park's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverhibee View Post
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    Can the crown appeal this decision.
    No, case closed according to that Barrister article weblink .

  14. #164
    An alleged victims past should be treated the same way as an accused persons previous convictions. The jury should only be deciding what happened on the night in question.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killiehibbie View Post
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    An alleged victims past should be treated the same way as an accused persons previous convictions. The jury should only be deciding what happened on the night in question.
    The jury need the relevant facts though and this was directly relevant as to why he thought she was consenting.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy74 View Post
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    The jury need the relevant facts though and this was directly relevant as to why he thought she was consenting.
    Which is exactly why Lady Justice Hallet, one of the countries most senior judges, decided that it should be allowed.

    And as the posting above states this was not setting any new precedent or changing the way every rape trial will be run but specific to this case.

    I'm inclined to believe that such a senior judge is possibly more qualified than most to make this decision.

  17. #167
    Scottish Cup Victory - Witness 2016 Scouse Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Which is exactly why Lady Justice Hallet, one of the countries most senior judges, decided that it should be allowed.

    And as the posting above states this was not setting any new precedent or changing the way every rape trial will be run but specific to this case.

    I'm inclined to believe that such a senior judge is possibly more qualified than most to make this decision.
    On this occasion you're probably right but judges are often so far away from reality and the current happenings it's unreal.
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  18. #168
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    On this occasion you're probably right but judges are often so far away from reality and the current happenings it's unreal.
    And a fair few lack the common sense to see past the black and white nature of the law.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    On this occasion you're probably right but judges are often so far away from reality and the current happenings it's unreal.
    Oh for sure but if we can't let a senior appeal judge make a decision on what is relevant to a case or not then I'm not sure where that leaves us..

  20. #170
    Coaching Staff Betty Boop's Avatar
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    David Goodwillie being sued for 500,000 in a similar case.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...news/g-9074981

  21. #171
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    David Goodwillie being sued for 500,000 in a similar case.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...news/g-9074981

    So the case was dropped and no charges brought but she is still suing him for half a million, so how can you sue someone who's never been charged or even brought to court?

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    So the case was dropped and no charges brought but she is still suing him for half a million, so how can you sue someone who's never been charged or even brought to court?
    The burden of proof is different in a civil case from a criminal case. It's a legitimate path to follow by those who may have been let down by the criminal system.
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  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    The burden of proof is different in a civil case from a criminal case. It's a legitimate path to follow by those who may have been let down by the criminal system.
    Whilst that is true, the Goodwillie case raises some interesting questions about the concept of innocent until proven guilty and access to justice for the accused (as well as the alleged victim).

    Despite having the financial resources to pay for the legal representation he chooses, Goodwillie has had this option removed as a significant proportion of those resources have been frozen to ensure there would be something for the alleged victim to be paid in the event her legal claim is successful.

    Furthermore, despite the absence of any specific law preventing it, I understand the judge has stated he would not allow Goodwillie to question his accuser during the trial. As a result, he is essentially prevented from representing himself.

  24. #174
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    Furthermore, despite the absence of any specific law preventing it, I understand the judge has stated he would not allow Goodwillie to question his accuser during the trial. As a result, he is essentially prevented from representing himself.
    I don't know if there is a law preventing this or not, I'll take your word for it though. You surely don't think that someone up in court for rape should be allowed to question the person accusing him? That would be ridiculous.

  25. #175
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    Whilst that is true, the Goodwillie case raises some interesting questions about the concept of innocent until proven guilty and access to justice for the accused (as well as the alleged victim).

    Despite having the financial resources to pay for the legal representation he chooses, Goodwillie has had this option removed as a significant proportion of those resources have been frozen to ensure there would be something for the alleged victim to be paid in the event her legal claim is successful.

    Furthermore, despite the absence of any specific law preventing it, I understand the judge has stated he would not allow Goodwillie to question his accuser during the trial. As a result, he is essentially prevented from representing himself.
    I read it that the judge doesn't think that justice would be seen to be done if DG represents himself. In other words, that justice would be better served by having a professional doing it.

    A jury may be swayed by DG's manner of examining of the woman, purely by his (lack of) experience.... that might go for him or against him. Again, rape being what it is, one can't always apply the same procedures in cases like this as in other types. (cf Evans, C)

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