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  1. #2131
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Correct, we really need to learn our place.
    'we'


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  3. #2132
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    'we'
    You know, we un-homogenous mob north of the imaginary border.

  4. #2133
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Correct, we really need to learn our place.
    Who is this ‘we’ you speak of? I’m not sure it’s you and me.
    Last edited by Mibbes Aye; 13-06-2018 at 09:49 PM.
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  5. #2134
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    You know, we un-homogenous mob north of the imaginary border.
    'we' all think the same do we?

  6. #2135
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    You know, we un-homogenous mob north of the imaginary border.
    Are you saying ‘we’ are homogenous and that the border hasn’t been a shifting line on a map, dictated by geographical features and whichever unelected tyrant/leader had the stronger army?
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  7. #2136
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Why is that? If we all walked out every time something never went the way we wanted it then nothing would get done. As I said a point was made, but what progression was made on solving what caused the walkout in the first place?
    No progress.

    What a way to show the rest world the Scottish political talent we have - storming out Westminster raging with injustice.

    No sitting and waiting wanting to have dialogue even if it meant working beyond normal hours to get an agreement in place, no thoughts of compromise, no cooperation, no winners just more grievance, more Ill feeling and resentment between the SNP the rest of UK politics .

  8. #2137
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    Cool story bro.
    Thanks.

    Well I was impressed. Glad you are too.

    J
    Last edited by Bristolhibby; 13-06-2018 at 10:02 PM.

  9. #2138
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Thanks.

    I was impressed. Glad you are too.

    J
    Yeah, I wasn’t impressed, thought it was a cool story though
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  10. #2139
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    Are you saying ‘we’ are homogenous and that the border hasn’t been a shifting line on a map, dictated by geographical features and whichever unelected tyrant/leader had the stronger army?
    Yes, there are many things that connect us. Homogenous doesn't mean we are identical, but that we share certain traits culturally, temperaments and geographical to name a few. You should know the definition of the word considering you were the one to have first used it in the debate. To suggest that the Scots aren't homogenous is akin to denying that Scotland exists, but I suspect that's just wishful thinking on your part.

  11. #2140
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Yes, there are many things that connect us. Homogenous doesn't mean we are identical, but that we share certain traits culturally, temperaments and geographical to name a few. You should know the definition of the word considering you were the one to have first used it in the debate. To suggest that the Scots aren't homogenous is akin to denying that Scotland exists, but I suspect that's just wishful thinking on your part.
    It’s funny because you can read so many posts on here where people actively differentiate themselves from HOMFC fans and more especially The Rangers and Celtic fans.

    Not seeing much homogenity there. Or shared traits.

    And its it’s only been in the last two or three hundred years that the highlands and lowlands have been brought together in an enforced sense of nationhood, that funnily almost mirrors the rise of ‘Britishness’.

    As for your statement about whether Scotland exists, you didn’t address my point that the ‘border’ has moved countless times depending on the balance of power between feuding monarchs and lords. Is that really how a nation should be defined? Where the line ended up being drawn, after it made more financial sense to trade rather than fight?

    It merely reinforces the point that nationhood is a social construction which relies heavily on artificial differentiation and often the stoking of grievance and resentment.

    People are better than that, or at least some of us think so.
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  12. #2141
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    Yeah, I wasn’t impressed, thought it was a cool story though
    Fair one. Good to see people being inspired by politics.

    J

  13. #2142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    OK. The way the message was delivered aside. Does the Westminster power grab not concern you?

    These are devolved powers going straight to to Westminster from the EU rather than remaining with the Scottish Parliament.

    It’s also a slap in the face of those who believe in Devolution rather than Independence.

    J
    How can something ‘remain’ with the Scottish Parliament when they doesn’t exist there currently?

    These are the same powers that the SNP are only too happy to have reside in Brussels...an irony that is of course lost on the ‘outraged’

    The logic on the repatriation of power is pretty clear...where there is a perceived need to maintain a U.K. wide approach during the initial years post Brexit they will remain at Westminster to ensure consistency across the U.K. before being passed to the devolved powers. Where there is no perceived need then the powers are passed immediately.

    While there may be some debate around the edges on time scale and precisely which powers the general approach seems sensible enough to me.

  14. #2143
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    How can something ‘remain’ with the Scottish Parliament when they doesn’t exist there currently?

    These are the same powers that the SNP are only too happy to have reside in Brussels...an irony that is of course lost on the ‘outraged’

    The logic on the repatriation of power is pretty clear...where there is a perceived need to maintain a U.K. wide approach during the initial years post Brexit they will remain at Westminster to ensure consistency across the U.K. before being passed to the devolved powers. Where there is no perceived need then the powers are passed immediately.

    While there may be some debate around the edges on time scale and precisely which powers the general approach seems sensible enough to me.
    I think you’ve made this point a few times and failed to get an answer from Nat-supporting posters.

    They talk about a need and desire to govern ‘ourselves’ and not be subject to the diktat of Westminster (which we have exposed as a myth in previous posts and threads).

    At the same time, I’ve not seen one Nat poster on here who wants to leave the EU, quite the opposite. Yet there is a failure to acknowledge that even if the EU was happy to accept Scotland as a member, which is dodgy given the financial convergence rules, we would continue to give a huge amount of sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.

    I’m personally okay with that, you maybe less so, but it flies in the face of the rhetoric from the Nat camp about being masters of our destiny etc etc
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  15. #2144
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    It’s funny because you can read so many posts on here where people actively differentiate themselves from HOMFC fans and more especially The Rangers and Celtic fans.

    Not seeing much homogenity there. Or shared traits.

    And its it’s only been in the last two or three hundred years that the highlands and lowlands have been brought together in an enforced sense of nationhood, that funnily almost mirrors the rise of ‘Britishness’.

    As for your statement about whether Scotland exists, you didn’t address my point that the ‘border’ has moved countless times depending on the balance of power between feuding monarchs and lords. Is that really how a nation should be defined? Where the line ended up being drawn, after it made more financial sense to trade rather than fight?

    It merely reinforces the point that nationhood is a social construction which relies heavily on artificial differentiation and often the stoking of grievance and resentment.

    People are better than that, or at least some of us think so.
    Your view of nationalism is stuck in the 1930's. The driving force behind MY wish for independence and that of many others is not governed by the desire to distinguish ourselves from the rest of humanity steered by some sense of superiority, it's driven by a wish to have our voices heard. You're outdated ideals of international socialism took a bashing in the Brexit referendum when those areas that traditionally were the backbone of the Labour Party turned out to vote for nationalism before internationalism and showed that many of your previous comrades are in fact national socialists. That's a hard pill to swallow but swallow it you must. Your Labour party still continues to support nationalism with the exception of a few who made a principled stand today by resigning from their shadow cabinet posts. Contrary to that the SNP along with the lib dems and greens have continued to campaign for the UK stay in the European family. The Labour Party have lost their way and instead of listening to their core vote, they're busy trying not to lose ground to the right by courting their voters.

  16. #2145
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Your view of nationalism is stuck in the 1930's. The driving force behind MY wish for independence and that of many others is not governed by the desire to distinguish ourselves from the rest of humanity steered by some sense of superiority, it's driven by a wish to have our voices heard. You're outdated ideals of international socialism took a bashing in the Brexit referendum when those areas that traditionally were the backbone of the Labour Party turned out to vote for nationalism before internationalism and showed that many of your previous comrades are in fact national socialists. That's a hard pill to swallow but swallow it you must. Your Labour party still continues to support nationalism with the exception of a few who made a principled stand today by resigning from their shadow cabinet posts. Contrary to that the SNP along with the lib dems and greens have continued to campaign for the UK stay in the European family. The Labour Party have lost their way and instead of listening to their core vote, they're busy trying not to lose ground to the right by courting their voters.
    Yeah, so for starters, you still can’t answer the point that borders are rather arbitrary and pretty much meaningless - unless you choose to make a big deal out of them?

    People’s voices are heard and an independent Scotland doesn’t make that more likely. There is a devolved parliament and there are local authorities, both carrying more influence in the day-to-day life of people than Westminster does. Believe me, the actions of my council and Holyrood have a much bigger impact on me than that of London.

    But that goes against the nationalist trope of being downtrodden and the victim, doesn’t it?
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  17. #2146
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    How can something ‘remain’ with the Scottish Parliament when they doesn’t exist there currently?

    These are the same powers that the SNP are only too happy to have reside in Brussels...an irony that is of course lost on the ‘outraged’

    The logic on the repatriation of power is pretty clear...where there is a perceived need to maintain a U.K. wide approach during the initial years post Brexit they will remain at Westminster to ensure consistency across the U.K. before being passed to the devolved powers. Where there is no perceived need then the powers are passed immediately.

    While there may be some debate around the edges on time scale and precisely which powers the general approach seems sensible enough to me.
    The EU powers we are talking about are devolved matters. There should be no debate. Devolved matters vest with the devolved institutions, not Westminster.

    Not sure I understand the consistency across the U.K. argument. There currently isn’t consistency across the U.K. and there won’t be in Northern Ireland post Brexit.

    J

  18. #2147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    The EU powers we are talking about are devolved matters. There should be no debate. Devolved matters vest with the devolved institutions, not Westminster.

    Not sure I understand the consistency across the U.K. argument. There currently isn’t consistency across the U.K. and there won’t be in Northern Ireland post Brexit.

    J

    Of course there should be debate. Life isn’t black and white.

    It’s also useful to know just what is being squabbled over. The majority of powers are being fully devolved or in non legislative ways. In fact when you remove defra from the equation there is only a handful of areas where the powers will be retained at U.K. level.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...nce-–-scotland

    Considering the unholy mess the EU has made of its agricultural policies is it any wonder that the U.K. might rightly think that just splintering the prop that CAP has provided all these years into pieces immediately might not be the best approach?

  19. #2148
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Of course there should be debate. Life isn’t black and white.

    It’s also useful to know just what is being squabbled over. The majority of powers are being fully devolved or in non legislative ways. In fact when you remove defra from the equation there is only a handful of areas where the powers will be retained at U.K. level.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/charts/government-analysis-intersection-eu-law-and-devolved-competence-–-scotland

    Considering the unholy mess the EU has made of its agricultural policies is it any wonder that the U.K. might rightly think that just splintering the prop that CAP has provided all these years into pieces immediately might not be the best approach?
    I think ‘unholy mess’ is unfair. There was a lot of aggressive and successful lobbying by various vested interests over decades, and that hard work and those dark arts and deeds need recognised

    Plus, the politicking and lobbying resembles the papal court at the time of the Borgias and there’s nothing unholy about the papacy
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  20. #2149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Yes, there are many things that connect us. Homogenous doesn't mean we are identical, but that we share certain traits culturally, temperaments and geographical to name a few. You should know the definition of the word considering you were the one to have first used it in the debate. To suggest that the Scots aren't homogenous is akin to denying that Scotland exists, but I suspect that's just wishful thinking on your part.

    Have you not previously explained on here how you reject the idea of 'blood and soil nationalism?

    The above seems like you are describing exactly that.

    Otherwise, how else would you say 'we' share certain traits, culture, temprament or geography?

    You say the Scots are homogenous, something I think is agree with to an extent, but is surely counter to the idea of civic nationalism where, as I understand it, anybody who lives here is 'Scottish? Other than sharing the same city or country, I'm not sure how that would sit with us being homogenous?

  21. #2150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    I think ‘unholy mess’ is unfair. There was a lot of aggressive and successful lobbying by various vested interests over decades, and that hard work and those dark arts and deeds need recognised

    Plus, the politicking and lobbying resembles the papal court at the time of the Borgias and there’s nothing unholy about the papacy
    Hmm fair point, well made

  22. #2151
    There's your man that was responsible for 'The Vow', openly supporting independence now.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/independence-is-the-means-to-a-greater-end-jt3lpsjkg

    So there are people that care about devolution despite what some are saying.
    Last edited by Mr Grieves; 14-06-2018 at 07:15 AM.

  23. #2152
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Sure they have.
    Number of new @theSNP members since noon today is now 1,500...and rising. Welcome to all. If you haven’t signed up yet, you can do so here https://t.co/3oQxCOgvmI


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  24. #2153
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    You know and I know that you made that up.

    The Bain principle is funny, another made-up nationalist thing to try and create and stoke difference. Which is why you only ever hear Nats mentioning it. It’s not a principle, that term gives it some sort of authority or legitimacy it simply doesn’t have.

    There are plenty of examples of SNP and Labour politicians voting together at all levels of government.

    But it doesn’t create resentment if you admit that, does it?

    And lets be honest, nationalism relies on resentment, it’s the fuel you need to get your majority.
    I sat through it two nights ago, and watched it. I also watched Pmqs yesterday, unlike you.

    The made up stuff seems to be coming from you and 1ds.

    A simple look on Twitter, and you'll find the first minister, confirming the new arrivals to the SNP.

    It's as a lie though eh.

    I'll leave you to fight you're battles back in the 30's.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  25. #2154
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    You know and I know that you made that up.

    The Bain principle is funny, another made-up nationalist thing to try and create and stoke difference. Which is why you only ever hear Nats mentioning it. It’s not a principle, that term gives it some sort of authority or legitimacy it simply doesn’t have.

    There are plenty of examples of SNP and Labour politicians voting together at all levels of government.

    But it doesn’t create resentment if you admit that, does it?

    And lets be honest, nationalism relies on resentment, it’s the fuel you need to get your majority.
    Are you seriously attempting to contend that the Labour tribe has any less resentment for its counterpart than the SNP tribe?

  26. #2155
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    I think you’ve made this point a few times and failed to get an answer from Nat-supporting posters.

    They talk about a need and desire to govern ‘ourselves’ and not be subject to the diktat of Westminster (which we have exposed as a myth in previous posts and threads).

    At the same time, I’ve not seen one Nat poster on here who wants to leave the EU, quite the opposite. Yet there is a failure to acknowledge that even if the EU was happy to accept Scotland as a member, which is dodgy given the financial convergence rules, we would continue to give a huge amount of sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.

    I’m personally okay with that, you maybe less so, but it flies in the face of the rhetoric from the Nat camp about being masters of our destiny etc etc
    I've given the answer (I think a couple of times). It's a basic power struggle. Both sides say that repatriated powers in devolved competencies should mainly go to Holyrood with certain exceptions where agreed UK frameworks make sense. The difference is the UK wants to impose them, the Scot gov wants to agree them.

    But of course you already knew that ...

  27. #2156
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    I think you’ve made this point a few times and failed to get an answer from Nat-supporting posters.

    They talk about a need and desire to govern ‘ourselves’ and not be subject to the diktat of Westminster (which we have exposed as a myth in previous posts and threads).

    At the same time, I’ve not seen one Nat poster on here who wants to leave the EU, quite the opposite. Yet there is a failure to acknowledge that even if the EU was happy to accept Scotland as a member, which is dodgy given the financial convergence rules, we would continue to give a huge amount of sovereignty to Brussels and Strasbourg.

    I’m personally okay with that, you maybe less so, but it flies in the face of the rhetoric from the Nat camp about being masters of our destiny etc etc
    Oh, forgot to say. This is plain wrong. The financial convergence rules affect membership of the Eurozone, not the EU.

  28. #2157
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6...e-4c0c3fdda365

    If the person behind 'the vow' now believes an independent Scotland is the best way forward what hope has the no campaign got?
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  29. #2158
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Hearing there could be an emergency debate on Withdrawal Bill and devolution next Monday as well as Urgent Statement today
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  30. #2159
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    Yeah, so for starters, you still can’t answer the point that borders are rather arbitrary and pretty much meaningless - unless you choose to make a big deal out of them?

    People’s voices are heard and an independent Scotland doesn’t make that more likely. There is a devolved parliament and there are local authorities, both carrying more influence in the day-to-day life of people than Westminster does. Believe me, the actions of my council and Holyrood have a much bigger impact on me than that of London.

    But that goes against the nationalist trope of being downtrodden and the victim, doesn’t it?
    Arbitrary yes, meaningless no. You can't look around the world and seriously suggest that national identity doesn't exist or affect things? Christ, it's the long and short of Brexit for starters.

  31. #2160
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6...e-4c0c3fdda365

    If the person behind 'the vow' now believes an independent Scotland is the best way forward what hope has the no campaign got?
    To be fair, he was paid to be behind the vow, but still quite a jaw dropping moment.

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