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  1. #1861
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    I've lost any residual faith I had in all our politicians and parties - and the electorate who voted for these idiots and this crap.

    Brexit must be the stupidest piece of political self harm in our history. Hard left and Hard right Brexiteers are conspiring to trash our economic prospects for a mixture of narrow party advantage and sectarian political purposes while casually fuelling and enabling racism and xenophobia in the process. May and Corbyn are beneath contempt.

    Sturgeon's answer is to pour petrol on the flames of the Brexit economic vandalism by removing us from our biggest single marketplace - exiting the UK despite all the questions on currency, structural deficit and EU membership remaining unanswered. Taking the Brexit self-harm wounds and carefully and deliberately opening them even more deeply with a different weapon. A Kamikaze strategy as blinkered and narrow as that of the UK political joyriders.

    What does that leave? Vince Cable and Willie Rennie? God help us.

    A political party and leader that brought forward a credible long term growth strategy aimed at closing our deficit, increasing productivity and making our economy competitive - together with a guarantee of no more constitutional bollocks for the next twenty years - would get my vote in a heartbeat. Even if it was Sturgeon and the SNP.

    They should all be focused on growth, obsessed by it in fact. Without that to close the deficit those supporting the Union aren't making a convincing case for the status quo delivering economic success and those in favour of independence are advocating a leap into public services destruction and high tax mayhem. Close the gap and we can have a real debate.

    We've wasted the last ten years in Scotland on obsessing about an outdated 19th century nation-state concept instead of getting on with the day job thanks to Alex Salmond and the SNP. We're about to waste the next ten years in the UK obsessing about an outdated 19th century nation-state concept instead of getting on with the day job thanks to David Cameron, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.

    In the words of Charlton Heston: "God damn you. God damn you all to hell"
    Do you (honestly) think the SG with its present set of powers can do anything more than tinker at the edges of economic growth?

    And even if they could, they are about to be well and truly hamstrung by having the Brexiteers' dream immigration policy thrust upon them while inward investment tanks. Who is going to want to invest in Scotland when they could go to Ireland and a market of 500M? Who's going to jump through hoops to live in guaranteed Declinoville, Scotland? Declining population, diminishing economy, ageing demographic. It all spells ****ed any way you slice it.


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  3. #1862
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I dont think the landscape has taken a massive leap to the right. England has always been a small 'c' conservative, right of centre country at its heart. Its nearly 40 years since we voted in Thatcher. Brexit isnt about the right or fhe left all that much imo, as is shown by corbyns support for it.

    The EU is probably the greatest practical example of (neo?) liberal exonomics put into practice anywhere in the world. The left in this country have opposed it for a good chunk of its existence and it is overwhelmingly supported by corporates, finance, banking etc. Brexiting can be just as much a left wing vote - particuarly when those poorer, more left voting areas voted for it against the wishes of the 'metropolitcan, liberal elite'.

    Imo its good, old fashioned populism, mixed in with a good dose of english/british jingoism and foreigner bashing (lets not forget that wales and circa 40% of us jocks voted for it too) with more than a dash of terrible political leadership, fractured politics within the tories amd complacency thrown-in to really spice it up.

    Also, to give a bit of balance, many of the reasons for voting for Brexit are legitimate ones. If i lived in some left behind post industrial dump, id be a pit peeved off with my country transferring wealth to eastern europe, at the same time as seeing millions of east europeans move here and compete with me for low-paid work, houses etc.

    If the new Labour govt has paid more heed to these concerns instead of arrogantly dismissing them, resentment might not habe built up to the same extent. But thats all moot now.
    It's true that the old school left Corbyn comes from are anti-EU but the fact is that Brexit is going to happen under the Tories and if the Brexit true believers win their internal battle it's going to be shaped in a fashion that trashes employment rights and market regulation. The hard left want to sweep away the EU for exactly the opposite reason, to live out some kind of retro-Soviet-lite.

    The European market has been an economic success while incorporating social protection and market regulation. You could make a decent case that it lacks transparency and accountability in its power structure, but the result has turned out pretty well. It's also made it much more difficult for UK governments to make big left or right swings like they used to.

  4. #1863
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Grieves View Post
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    https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonard...the-uk-will-be

    For those sceptical of the Scottish government analysis
    What worries me about it is how, when asked what analysis the government had undertaken regarding Brexit they stated there was none.... Yet they actually had this already commissioned... "EU Exit Analysis - Cross Whitehall Briefing"

    Now, I know it appears a bit onesided on the negative view at the moment, but surely the fully completed briefing could have also included any positive analysis???

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  5. #1864
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    It's true that the old school left Corbyn comes from are anti-EU but the fact is that Brexit is going to happen under the Tories and if the Brexit true believers win their internal battle it's going to be shaped in a fashion that trashes employment rights and market regulation. The hard left want to sweep away the EU for exactly the opposite reason, to live out some kind of retro-Soviet-lite.

    The European market has been an economic success while incorporating social protection and market regulation. You could make a decent case that it lacks transparency and accountability in its power structure, but the result has turned out pretty well. It's also made it much more difficult for UK governments to make big left or right swings like they used to.
    Ill wait till we see what happens with regulation and workers rights - i think there is a lot of scaremongering going on with that - ultinately it will become a domestic political issue.

    I agree the EU has been a success, amd i agree it is in the mould of third-way liberalism, which has gone majorly oit of fashion in this country, alas. However as you know, liberlism is not 'the left' (despite the terms being confused by the US lexicon).

    I suppose beexit was a bit of a perfect storm in that it united disaffected left voters with angry right voters, hence why its been so pernicious and why we have a complete vacuum of political leadership in our two main parties.

  6. #1865
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Do you (honestly) think the SG with its present set of powers can do anything more than tinker at the edges of economic growth?

    And even if they could, they are about to be well and truly hamstrung by having the Brexiteers' dream immigration policy thrust upon them while inward investment tanks. Who is going to want to invest in Scotland when they could go to Ireland and a market of 500M? Who's going to jump through hoops to live in guaranteed Declinoville, Scotland? Declining population, diminishing economy, ageing demographic. It all spells ****ed any way you slice it.

    Yes I do and so does Nicola Sturgeon. She regularly talks about delivering growth and within the existing powers. Actually they all do. So no-one and no party gets a pass.

  7. #1866
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ill wait till we see what happens with regulation and workers rights - i think there is a lot of scaremongering going on with that - ultinately it will become a domestic political issue.

    I agree the EU has been a success, amd i agree it is in the mould of third-way liberalism, which has gone majorly oit of fashion in this country, alas. However as you know, liberlism is not 'the left' (despite the terms being confused by the US lexicon).

    I suppose beexit was a bit of a perfect storm in that it united disaffected left voters with angry right voters, hence why its been so pernicious and why we have a complete vacuum of political leadership in our two main parties.

    The extremist horseshoe.

    One day the centrist dad melts will return to centre stage.

  8. #1867
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    The extremist horseshoe.

    One day the centrist dad melts will return to centre stage.
    One Day Soon, hopefully 😃

  9. #1868
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    One Day Soon, hopefully 😃

    Amen, middle-aged Brother or Sister.

  10. #1869
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    It's true that the old school left Corbyn comes from are anti-EU but the fact is that Brexit is going to happen under the Tories and if the Brexit true believers win their internal battle it's going to be shaped in a fashion that trashes employment rights and market regulation. The hard left want to sweep away the EU for exactly the opposite reason, to live out some kind of retro-Soviet-lite.

    The European market has been an economic success while incorporating social protection and market regulation. You could make a decent case that it lacks transparency and accountability in its power structure, but the result has turned out pretty well. It's also made it much more difficult for UK governments to make big left or right swings like they used to.
    A success except for the 40% youth unemployment in areas across the EU or for the people of Greece.

  11. #1870
    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    A success except for the 40% youth unemployment in areas across the EU or for the people of Greece.
    The single market (what we were talking about) can't take the blame for fiscal irresponsibility, the global financial crash of 2008 and the subsequent austerity in the Eurozone.


  12. #1871
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The single market (what we were talking about) can't take the blame for fiscal irresponsibility, the global financial crash of 2008 and the subsequent austerity in the Eurozone.


    Indeed. Feq me that graph is big though.

  13. #1872
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    What worries me about it is how, when asked what analysis the government had undertaken regarding Brexit they stated there was none.... Yet they actually had this already commissioned... "EU Exit Analysis - Cross Whitehall Briefing"

    Now, I know it appears a bit onesided on the negative view at the moment, but surely the fully completed briefing could have also included any positive analysis???

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
    Asked why the prime minister was not making the analysis public, a DExEU source told BuzzFeed News: "Because it's embarrassing."
    Would be if not so

    The positive analysis was factored in, in fact they make pretty wildly optimistic assumptions about the number of trade deals they're going to be able to conclude:

    On the plus side, the analysis assumes in all scenarios that a trade deal with the US will be concluded, and that it would benefit GDP by about 0.2% in the long term. Trade deals with other non-EU countries and blocs, such as China, India, Australia, the Gulf countries, and the nations of Southeast Asia would add, in total, a further 0.1% to 0.4% to GDP over the long term.

  14. #1873
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Indeed. Feq me that graph is big though.

  15. #1874
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Would be if not so

    The positive analysis was factored in, in fact they make pretty wildly optimistic assumptions about the number of trade deals they're going to be able to conclude:
    To be fair to HMG, they did publish pretty similar analysis to this during the ref - so its not exactly been a secret!

  16. #1875
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    The extremist horseshoe.

    One day the centrist dad melts will return to centre stage.
    Ah, the old 'extreme right and extreme left will meet in the middle' trope, so favoured of people who dont actually want to redistribute wealth or do anything about the power being in the hands of the few. Modern Studies GCSE stuff. But it doesnt actually help describe or explain whats going on in politics anymore. Its just the clarion call for people who have been left behind by twentieth first century politics.

  17. #1876
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Ah, the old 'extreme right and extreme left will meet in the middle' trope, so favoured of people who dont actually want to redistribute wealth or do anything about the power being in the hands of the few. Modern Studies GCSE stuff. But it doesnt actually help describe or explain whats going on in politics anymore. Its just the clarion call for people who have been left behind by twentieth first century politics.
    That's a very arrogant response.

    I assure you i understand politics very well, both theoretical and applied.

    I cant help but be struck by the irony of an unreconstructed socialist accusing others of being left behind by the 21st century. How many of your socialist bastions habe made it into the 21st centrury again?

  18. #1877
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    That's a very arrogant response.

    I assure you i understand politics very well, both theoretical and applied.

    I cant help but be struck by the irony of an unreconstructed socialist accusing others of being left behind by the 21st century. How many of your socialist bastions habe made it into the 21st centrury again?
    It wasnt intended to be a dig at you personally, I just find the theory absolute garbage. "Stalin was left wing, Hitler was right wing, they were both murderous, hence their ideologies are essentially the same". I want someone to explain to me how this works in the world of logic. And Im not sure i would personally describe myself as a 'socialist', unreconstructed or not, because in a world of global capital such labels dont mean that much anymore. I believe in wealth redistribution within the confines of a mixed (public and private) economy, as opposed to the militant extremism we have now with a rampant private sector hoovering up all aspects of public life. Kind of a northern european model. Regardless, I suspect you are using 'socialist' as an insult as opposed to accurately representing me so i get that

  19. #1878
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Ah, the old 'extreme right and extreme left will meet in the middle' trope, so favoured of people who dont actually want to redistribute wealth or do anything about the power being in the hands of the few. Modern Studies GCSE stuff. But it doesnt actually help describe or explain whats going on in politics anymore. Its just the clarion call for people who have been left behind by twentieth first century politics.

    Have you ever had any sustained involvement in politics rather than just talking about it? If you had you would know exactly what is meant.

    We don't have GCSEs here - never have done.

    There are many clarion calls for people who have been 'left behind by twentieth first century politics'. This isn't one of them. The notion - and the fact - that the extreme right and left eventually conspire on the far fringes for at least transitional purposes has been in common political usage since as early as the 1980s - certainly in the Trade Unions. It gained a formal label more recently.

    As far as I can see the only people who don't want to redistribute wealth or do anything about power being in the hands of the few are those who are happy to conspire in a powerless, oppositionalist agenda safe in the knowledge that they can talk, look and sound radical without any actual danger of effecting change. The current Labour Party is a wet dream for the Tories.

    In the context of this discussion perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the Brexit vote and the subsequent looney-tunes runaway train being driven by May and Corbyn is perfectly sensible and reasonable. It's not at all a horseshoe of zealot right-wing freaks like Rees-Mogg and dishonest West haters like Corbyn and MacDonald carefully working together to ensure an economically damaging Brexit for their own narrow political purposes.

    Any party leader who is 'playing it clever' by not getting involved in the Brexit mess is demonstrating that they are spectacularly unfit for office - and doing so with the defining issue of the next twenty or thirty years. We need a statesman or woman and instead we've got Wolfie Faquing Smith.

  20. #1879
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Have you ever had any sustained involvement in politics rather than just talking about it? If you had you would know exactly what is meant.

    We don't have GCSEs here - never have done.

    There are many clarion calls for people who have been 'left behind by twentieth first century politics'. This isn't one of them. The notion - and the fact - that the extreme right and left eventually conspire on the far fringes for at least transitional purposes has been in common political usage since as early as the 1980s - certainly in the Trade Unions. It gained a formal label more recently.

    As far as I can see the only people who don't want to redistribute wealth or do anything about power being in the hands of the few are those who are happy to conspire in a powerless, oppositionalist agenda safe in the knowledge that they can talk, look and sound radical without any actual danger of effecting change. The current Labour Party is a wet dream for the Tories.

    In the context of this discussion perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the Brexit vote and the subsequent looney-tunes runaway train being driven by May and Corbyn is perfectly sensible and reasonable. It's not at all a horseshoe of zealot right-wing freaks like Rees-Mogg and dishonest West haters like Corbyn and MacDonald carefully working together to ensure an economically damaging Brexit for their own narrow political purposes.

    Any party leader who is 'playing it clever' by not getting involved in the Brexit mess is demonstrating that they are spectacularly unfit for office - and doing so with the defining issue of the next twenty or thirty years. We need a statesman or woman and instead we've got Wolfie Faquing Smith.
    Yes, I worked in politics for a long time, at policy level and also at project delivery level, although ive spoken to people that are more qualified than me that know less, and people less qualified than me that know more. But i'll definitely call out things that I think are stupid regardless, such as the notion you describe about confluence between extreme right and left being in any way relevant to whats going on at Brexit level and in UK politics today.

    Brexit is a Tory Party 'party'. You are aware Corbyn campaigned to Remain dont you? That he was the most visible pro-remain campaigner prior to the vote, as assessed by the LSE when looking at media coverage of the referendum? I have an email from his office prior to the referendum practically begging me to vote to stay in the EU. You are banging on as if he and the Tories were in cahoots. Its just total fantasy, and I think you are letting your violent dislike of him overtake your critical faculties. In fact, I think you KNOW that Brexit is solely a result of Cameron's crazy ego-driven mistake of trying to unite his fractured Party by calling a referendum he thought he'd win. And also, it is a result of the Leave vote. Thats a fact, that a UK wide party like Labour cant ignore. I accept that as an individual, Corbyn is probably extremely conflicted about the EU, in part because of the whole troika carry on and the imposition of neo liberal policies and breakup of state institutions imposed on Greece, just as an example. But he campaigned for Remain, and when the referendum was lost he's tried to steer a middle ground, as discussed before, of trying to placate two very different kinds of Labour voter. Corbyn is not a big player in the Brexit story.

    And as ive said previously, I am mortified by the whole notion of Brexit and hope there are some more twists before 1st January 2022 (if that's the actual post transition date). Its not over yet.
    Last edited by hibsbollah; 30-01-2018 at 05:03 PM.

  21. #1880
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  22. #1881
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Yes, I worked in politics for a long time, at policy level and also at project delivery level, although ive spoken to people that are more qualified than me that know less, and people less qualified than me that know more. But i'll definitely call out things that I think are stupid regardless, such as the notion you describe about confluence between extreme right and left being in any way relevant to whats going on at Brexit level and in UK politics today.

    Brexit is a Tory Party 'party'. You are aware Corbyn campaigned to Remain dont you? That he was the most visible pro-remain campaigner prior to the vote, as assessed by the LSE when looking at media coverage of the referendum? I have an email from his office prior to the referendum practically begging me to vote to stay in the EU. You are banging on as if he and the Tories were in cahoots. Its just total fantasy, and I think you are letting your violent dislike of him overtake your critical faculties. In fact, I think you KNOW that Brexit is solely a result of Cameron's crazy ego-driven mistake of trying to unite his fractured Party by calling a referendum he thought he'd win. And also, it is a result of the Leave vote. Thats a fact, that a UK wide party like Labour cant ignore. I accept that as an individual, Corbyn is probably extremely conflicted about the EU, in part because of the whole troika carry on and the imposition of neo liberal policies and breakup of state institutions imposed on Greece, just as an example. But he campaigned for Remain, and when the referendum was lost he's tried to steer a middle ground, as discussed before, of trying to placate two very different kinds of Labour voter. Corbyn is not a big player in the Brexit story.

    And as ive said previously, I am mortified by the whole notion of Brexit and hope there are some more twists before 1st January 2022 (if that's the actual post transition date). Its not over yet.
    Whilst I agree with most of that, I simply can't agree that Corbyn campaigned on anything before the referendum. He was sat firmly on the fence taking great care not to upset anyone either side.

  23. #1882
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Whilst I agree with most of that, I simply can't agree that Corbyn campaigned on anything before the referendum. He was sat firmly on the fence taking great care not to upset anyone either side.
    He campaigned, alright.

    It's just that his words lacked passion and conviction, and that he talked about issues which were of limited interest to the audience.

    I heard him and I remember being hugely disappointed.

    He actually said on TV that his support for staying in the EU was 7/10. That'll mobilise the electorate, right enough.

    I would go as far as saying that his deliberately half hearted "support" for remain, had no positive effect. At best.

    His current position, flying in the face of conference policies and membership opinion, is incredibly frustrating. Labour is allowing the Tories to do what they want.

    If that's a short term political tactic helping the Party to win power and keep us in the EU, then I'll be happy and may even rejoin.

    Unfortunately, I expect the worst.

  24. #1883
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Yes I do and so does Nicola Sturgeon. She regularly talks about delivering growth and within the existing powers. Actually they all do. So no-one and no party gets a pass.
    Forgot to answer this. I don't think she really believes that (or if she does she's deluding herself). I think it's part of the SNP strategy to portray Scotland as already an all but fully functioning country with a government in waiting. I get why they do that but it still makes me a fair bit.

  25. #1884
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Forgot to answer this. I don't think she really believes that (or if she does she's deluding herself). I think it's part of the SNP strategy to portray Scotland as already an all but fully functioning country with a government in waiting. I get why they do that but it still makes me a fair bit.

    Cannot deal with this right now. I'm in TDD Purdah.

  26. #1885
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Cannot deal with this right now. I'm in TDD Purdah.
    Where's your commitment man? Tomato sauce crisps on white bread over the chance to stick it to Sturgeon. Poor show.

  27. #1886
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    As things start to heat up, it was always about the Irish border, until the next bump in the road.

    https://t.co/2Gb94IqFab


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  28. #1887
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    After the Tories rubbished the Scottish Governments analysis on the impacts of brexit as scaremongering, they finally release their own figures, and low, and behold. They're as bad as we thought.

    The Tories have not got a ***** clue.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  29. #1888
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    It's true that the old school left Corbyn comes from are anti-EU but the fact is that Brexit is going to happen under the Tories and if the Brexit true believers win their internal battle it's going to be shaped in a fashion that trashes employment rights and market regulation. The hard left want to sweep away the EU for exactly the opposite reason, to live out some kind of retro-Soviet-lite.

    The European market has been an economic success while incorporating social protection and market regulation. You could make a decent case that it lacks transparency and accountability in its power structure, but the result has turned out pretty well. It's also made it much more difficult for UK governments to make big left or right swings like they used to.
    JC would like a union of soviet republics.

  30. #1889
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    After the Tories rubbished the Scottish Governments analysis on the impacts of brexit as scaremongering, they finally release their own figures, and low, and behold. They're as bad as we thought.

    The Tories have not got a ***** clue.
    They're actually worse! So much for the Scottish Tories' trumpeted influence at Westminster, they are clearly well out of the loop.

  31. #1890
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    They're actually worse! So much for the Scottish Tories' trumpeted influence at Westminster, they are clearly well out of the loop.
    It's hilarious and infuriating at the same time that the DUP had May by the baws for NI yet the Scottish Tories with more MPs sat with their thumbs up their arse.

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