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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    It's a fair point in some ways, but it is a bit of a phyrric one. Does that mean that people in Scotland now must always accept whatever happens in the UK, come what may, and even if it is in direct opposition to the national interest here? Are you happy with the fact that we are being taken out of the European Union, even though the majority of people who voted on this in Scotland, did not back it?
    Is that not exactly what a No vote implicitly stated...we would stay as part of the U.K. and as a direct result would be under Westminster control for non devolved areas, of which EU membership was one?

    Why would people vote No then all of a sudden claim that the result of a UK vote was not in the Scottish national interest and expect Surgeon to go gallivanting across Europe on matters where she holds zero power or responsibility?

    I know why she is doing it but it's purely for her and her parties political interests, to think otherwise is a bit foolish in my eyes. And anyway the wheels of time turn and we shall see where we are at in a couple of years...by then we could easily have a few more countries looking to leave as there are sizeable portions of the electorate in a number of countries that want a very similar referendum.


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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
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    You could extend that to say if the referendum had been Yes then as part of the UK who wanted us to stay then we couldn't have left! There is a genuine political imbalance caused by Brexit, and I don't think a stance of "tough" is a good one.
    It's the stance that some folk are taking a measure of enjoyment in. I don't understand the mentality, but then we've never been so polarised.

    "Tough" will only go so far.

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Is that not exactly what a No vote implicitly stated...we would stay as part of the U.K. and as a direct result would be under Westminster control for non devolved areas, of which EU membership was one?

    Why would people vote No then all of a sudden claim that the result of a UK vote was not in the Scottish national interest and expect Surgeon to go gallivanting across Europe on matters where she holds zero power or responsibility?

    I know why she is doing it but it's purely for her and her parties political interests, to think otherwise is a bit foolish in my eyes. And anyway the wheels of time turn and we shall see where we are at in a couple of years...by then we could easily have a few more countries looking to leave as there are sizeable portions of the electorate in a number of countries that want a very similar referendum.
    Self-styled saviour of the Union and Nat-Slayer in Chief, Ruth Davidson said:

    The only way to guarantee Scotland remaining in the EU is to vote No.

    BT also campaigned in a similar way:

    "What is the process for removing EU citizenship? Voting Yes"

    She did not say "for the foreseeable future" or similar.

    There are those attempting to rewrite history to say that an EU referendum was in the offing, but that was not confirmed as their policy until the Tory manifesto for the May 2015 election.
    Last edited by steakbake; 11-08-2016 at 04:12 PM.

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    Not sure what you're getting at here? The independence referendum was a Scottish only vote and the EU vote was UK, what point are you trying to make?
    You seem to suggest that Scotland is entirely subservient for non-devolved issues for ever now as a result of the referendum. It is fair to say I think that the wishes of Scotlands electorate are in the matter of EU not being carried out by a significant amount. It is a sufficiently large figure as to call into question the direction the country is being driven down, especially in the light of No claims regarding Scotlands future in the EU, which was part of their campaign, and a big one.

  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Is that not exactly what a No vote implicitly stated...we would stay as part of the U.K. and as a direct result would be under Westminster control for non devolved areas, of which EU membership was one?

    Why would people vote No then all of a sudden claim that the result of a UK vote was not in the Scottish national interest and expect Surgeon to go gallivanting across Europe on matters where she holds zero power or responsibility?

    I know why she is doing it but it's purely for her and her parties political interests, to think otherwise is a bit foolish in my eyes. And anyway the wheels of time turn and we shall see where we are at in a couple of years...by then we could easily have a few more countries looking to leave as there are sizeable portions of the electorate in a number of countries that want a very similar referendum.
    She has a mandate to represent Scotland. Whether you agree with her or not it would be a derogation of her duties if she wasn't representing the country this way, surely?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
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    You seem to suggest that Scotland is entirely subservient for non-devolved issues for ever now as a result of the referendum. It is fair to say I think that the wishes of Scotlands electorate are in the matter of EU not being carried out by a significant amount. It is a sufficiently large figure as to call into question the direction the country is being driven down, especially in the light of No claims regarding Scotlands future in the EU, which was part of their campaign, and a big one.
    No I didn't suggest that at all. It would depend on what the vote was for. In this case though it's pretty straighforward... The UK has EU membership, whereas Scotland does not. The UK - in which Scotland voted to remain part of in 2014, was asked whether it wanted to leave the EU and the answer was yes. What is so difficult to understand about that? Yes the demographics showed that most Scottish people would've preferred to remain, but they also showed that most Londoners would've preferred to stay. There's no difference in the context of this referendum.

    Edit, didn't read your post properly. Can take away the first sentence of the above. Scotland do have a say in non-devolved issues, but given our relatively small population it doesn't usually count for much. When we did have our own say, we opted to remain as we are. So why should such a small nation have more say in non-devolved issues?
    Last edited by #FromTheCapital; 11-08-2016 at 05:12 PM.

  8. #127
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    There is a different context in the case of Scotland than in other parts of the UK. Appreciate that London has an assembly or that Norwich etc voted in, but these are not devolved parts of the UK who will see a significant impact upon legislation, even the legislation that underpins the existence of the Scottish devolution settlement as it is, being affected by the overall UK vote.

    I appreciate there will always be people who are implacably opposed to anything that the SNP might propose, but on this issue it is entirely right that the Scottish Government - regardless of who constituted it - should pursue whatever options there are for the outcome of this to as closely match the vote in Scotland.

    I don't think any ScotGov would get very far if they talked about it being a reserved matter and none of their business...

  9. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    There is a different context in the case of Scotland than in other parts of the UK. Appreciate that London has an assembly or that Norwich etc voted in, but these are not devolved parts of the UK who will see a significant impact upon legislation, even the legislation that underpins the existence of the Scottish devolution settlement as it is, being affected by the overall UK vote.

    I appreciate there will always be people who are implacably opposed to anything that the SNP might propose, but on this issue it is entirely right that the Scottish Government - regardless of who constituted it - should pursue whatever options there are for the outcome of this to as closely match the vote in Scotland.

    I don't think any ScotGov would get very far if they talked about it being a reserved matter and none of their business...
    There is no difference in this context. For the purpose of a Uk wide vote, Scotland is simply a region in the north of the Uk.

    There will always be people who are implacably in favour of anything that the SNP might propose...

    Realistically, what options are there that would closely match the vote in Scotland? Other than another independence referendum, which ironically would mean ignoring the outcome of another vote from 2 years ago.
    Last edited by #FromTheCapital; 11-08-2016 at 06:01 PM.

  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    Self-styled saviour of the Union and Nat-Slayer in Chief, Ruth Davidson said: The only way to guarantee Scotland remaining in the EU is to vote No. BT also campaigned in a similar way: "What is the process for removing EU citizenship? Voting Yes" She did not say "for the foreseeable future" or similar. There are those attempting to rewrite history to say that an EU referendum was in the offing, but that was not confirmed as their policy until the Tory manifesto for the May 2015 election.
    But none of that matters a jot...the vote wasn't about being in the EU or if Ruth Davidson had a crystal ball it was about staying in the UK and therefore being part of any UK vote and the consequences of that. That was a very very clear outcome of voting No and only two years later to somehow say that because the outcome of a UK vote doesn't match the Scotland vote we are be taken somewhere against our will is a very convenient mis-interpretation.

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    There is no difference in this context. For the purpose of a Uk wide vote, Scotland is simply a region in the north of the Uk.

    There will always be people who are implacably in favour of anything that the SNP might propose...

    Realistically, what options are there that would closely match the vote in Scotland? Other than another independence referendum, which ironically would mean ignoring the outcome of another vote from 2 years ago.
    Or, the Scottish government seeks what it can do on the issue of retaining some form of membership - which is precisely what Sturgeon is doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    Or, the Scottish government seeks what it can do on the issue of retaining some form of membership - which is precisely what Sturgeon is doing.
    That was my question though, what options are there in that respect? What form of membership can Scotland realistically expect to keep as a Uk nation? From what I've seen, Sturgeon has met with the cleaner and the janny at the European Parliament and done a lot of shouting about 'democratically unacceptable' votes.

  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    Or, the Scottish government seeks what it can do on the issue of retaining some form of membership - which is precisely what Sturgeon is doing.
    Yep. Not to do so would be, IMO, an abdication of her responsibility.

    Scotland voted to stay in, and she is trying to find a way to respect that. It may be that there are none. It may be that the only way is leaving the UK.

    Whatever, it's part of her job to find out the facts. After that, she can put the facts out there for the electorate to decide on the next step.

  14. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Is that not exactly what a No vote implicitly stated...we would stay as part of the U.K. and as a direct result would be under Westminster control for non devolved areas, of which EU membership was one?

    Why would people vote No then all of a sudden claim that the result of a UK vote was not in the Scottish national interest and expect Surgeon to go gallivanting across Europe on matters where she holds zero power or responsibility?

    I know why she is doing it but it's purely for her and her parties political interests, to think otherwise is a bit foolish in my eyes. And anyway the wheels of time turn and we shall see where we are at in a couple of years...by then we could easily have a few more countries looking to leave as there are sizeable portions of the electorate in a number of countries that want a very similar referendum.
    I believe the First Minister got support from 3 other parties in the Scottish Parliament to go Gallivanting across Europe to try and keep Scotland in the EU.

    Maybe because the Tory amendment failed is why we're hearing the howling of derision by the Unionists in our MSM.

    Some are even saying she just spoke to jannies and cleaners.

    The Scottish cringe is alive and well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    The Scottish cringe is alive and well.
    Tell me about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    No I didn't suggest that at all. It would depend on what the vote was for. In this case though it's pretty straighforward... The UK has EU membership, whereas Scotland does not. The UK - in which Scotland voted to remain part of in 2014, was asked whether it wanted to leave the EU and the answer was yes. What is so difficult to understand about that? Yes the demographics showed that most Scottish people would've preferred to remain, but they also showed that most Londoners would've preferred to stay. There's no difference in the context of this referendum.

    Edit, didn't read your post properly. Can take away the first sentence of the above. Scotland do have a say in non-devolved issues, but given our relatively small population it doesn't usually count for much. When we did have our own say, we opted to remain as we are. So why should such a small nation have more say in non-devolved issues?
    It depends on how much you view the identity, history, culture, devolved-ness of Scotland as being worthy of a democratic voice in matters of major importance, and also at what point differences in political will between Scotland and the rest of the UK become of material impact.

    For me, the size of the Remain vote and the political landscape after the Devo vote means that Scotland is sufficiently different and united to have an opportunity to challenge our position. If, for example, the vote had been 80% in favour of Remain would you have thought it right to explore options? If yes, then it really is only a question of at what number action becomes justified. If no, then as a result of the Devo vote, Scotland is destined, in non-devolved matters, to have zero impact on UK policy. that doesnt sit well with me.

  17. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    Tell me about it.
    You're doing well enough, all by yourself.

    Take a look at this. The First Minister meeting your jannies, and cleaner.

    http://www.snp.org/there_is_strong_s...lace_in_europe

    Or maybe we should all just go back into our boxes and not bother with our futures.

    I wonder if the broad shoulders of the UK GOV will stump up the cash. I think not.

    https://t.co/mqGJswPhIM
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 11-08-2016 at 10:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    You're doing well enough, all by yourself.

    Take a look at this. The First Minister meeting your jannies, and cleaner.

    http://www.snp.org/there_is_strong_s...lace_in_europe
    Seeing as you're hell bent on posting biased references, let me add some balance - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-36656980

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
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    It depends on how much you view the identity, history, culture, devolved-ness of Scotland as being worthy of a democratic voice in matters of major importance, and also at what point differences in political will between Scotland and the rest of the UK become of material impact.

    For me, the size of the Remain vote and the political landscape after the Devo vote means that Scotland is sufficiently different and united to have an opportunity to challenge our position. If, for example, the vote had been 80% in favour of Remain would you have thought it right to explore options? If yes, then it really is only a question of at what number action becomes justified. If no, then as a result of the Devo vote, Scotland is destined, in non-devolved matters, to have zero impact on UK policy. that doesnt sit well with me.
    Scotland has always wanted to be different to the rest of the UK, that's evident in many aspects not least politics and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. However, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, we voted to stay as part of the UK and as such we should accept the results of a UK vote. Not sure how identity, history, culture and devolved-ness comes into this particular debate.

    I said in an earlier post, that in my view nobody up here seemed to be particularly bothered about the EU referendum until the results were announced. That's reflected in the turnout. Forgetting percentages, the margin of victory for remain was roughly the same as the margin for better together.

  20. #139
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    Seeing as you're hell bent on posting biased references, let me add some balance - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-36656980
    Is that guy Junker the cleaner or the Janny?

    And those references that I posted were indeed facts. It really happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Is that guy Junker the cleaner or the Janny?

    And those references that I posted were indeed facts. It really happened.
    Your link is an article from the SNP containing mostly tweets from the SNP and it's titled 'Get the facts here'

    Depends what you class as a fact I suppose, certainly doesn't tell the story from all sides.

    What really happened?

  22. #141
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    Your link is an article from the SNP containing mostly tweets from the SNP and it's titled 'Get the facts here'

    Depends what you class as a fact I suppose, certainly doesn't tell the story from all sides.

    What really happened?
    So are you saying the First Minister didn't actually meet these Europeans or was it just the Janny and cleaner?

    You must have been on the Brexit team eh.

    I know the MSM are having difficulty with the fact that our FM has gone out of her way to seek assurances for Scotland, and it's probably the first time that the UK gov have been side stepped, but you better get used to it, because theirs more where this comes from.

    I look forward to the months ahead.
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 11-08-2016 at 11:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    So are you saying the First Minister didn't actually meet these Europeans or was it just the Janny and cleaner?

    I know the MSM are having difficulty with the fact that our FM has gone out of her way to seek assurances for Scotland, and it's probably the first time that the UK gov have been side stepped, but you better get used to it, because theirs more where this comes from.

    I look forward to the months ahead.
    This is pretty boring to be honest. You keep making reference to a joke comment I made, it must have touched a nerve with you .

    Please point out where I say she didn't meet these people. While you're at it, maybe explain how any of these meetings will help Scotland remain part of the EU. And here's the hard part... do so without posting a reference to the national, wings over scotland or the SNP website.

  24. #143
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    This is pretty boring to be honest. You keep making reference to a joke comment I made, it must have touched a nerve with you .

    Please point out where I say she didn't meet these people. While you're at it, maybe explain how any of these meetings will help Scotland remain part of the EU. And here's the hard part... do so without posting a reference to the national, wings over scotland or the SNP website.
    You're right, it is boring reading someone continue to say people must respect the vote in 2014, whilst not respecting the vote 2 years later.

    Imagine if the Labour party took your line of thinking eh. They'd not be having another leadership election ever again.

    The outcome from ALL of the meetings our FM has had will out in the years ahead. She's just laying the groundwork for our future away from the UK.

    I seem to get the gist of your argument is that everyone should just respect the votes and go to the back of the bus and shut up. I'm afraid that's not going to happen bud. Prepare yourself for Indy2 because it's coming to a home near you soon.

    Alternatively we could all just accept that the Tories will look after Scotland and it's people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    You're right, it is boring reading someone continue to say people must respect the vote in 2014, whilst not respecting the vote 2 years later.

    Imagine if the Labour party took your line of thinking eh. They'd not be having another leadership election ever again.

    The outcome from ALL of the meetings our FM has had will out in the years ahead. She's just laying the groundwork for our future away from the UK.

    I seem to get the gist of your argument is that everyone should just respect the votes and go to the back of the bus and shut up. I'm afraid that's not going to happen bud. Prepare yourself for Indy2 because it's coming to a home near you soon.

    Alternatively we could all just accept that the Tories will look after Scotland and it's people.
    Unbelievable...That post just sums up everything I've been saying....Respect the vote 2 years later 😂😂😂

    I know what she has been doing and that's exactly what I've been getting at - of course she knows the only option is another Independance referendum and imo anyone trying to suggest otherwise is at it.

    I will 'prepare myself for Indy2' and while it's pretty obvious which way I'd be voting, let me tell you that it's people like you that would maybe just swing the vote in favour of no once again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    Unbelievable...That post just sums up everything I've been saying....Respect the vote 2 years later 😂😂😂

    I know what she has been doing and that's exactly what I've been getting at - of course she knows the only option is another Independance referendum and imo anyone trying to suggest otherwise is at it.

    I will 'prepare myself for Indy2' and while it's pretty obvious which way I'd be voting, let me tell you that it's people like you that would maybe just swing the vote in favour of no once again.
    I can understand why you're so uneasy and getting personal. The ground has shifted. Most now see us out of the EU as a slap in the face.

    With respect to the options for staying in the EU being Independence(note the spelling) only, the FM is doing the job that the Scottish Parliament voted for her to do. As others have said on the thread, it would have been a dereliction of her duty not to investigate "ALL" options for staying.

    I accept that you wish to stay within the UK, and have you down as a lost cause, however I'm currently on 27 ex NO VOTERS who have moved over to YES if Indyref2 happens.

    I'm off to work on a couple of cleaners and the local Janny. Votes to be won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I can understand why you're so uneasy and getting personal. The ground has shifted. Most now see us out of the EU as a slap in the face.

    With respect to the options for staying in the EU being Independence(note the spelling) only, the FM is doing the job that the Scottish Parliament voted for her to do. As others have said on the thread, it would have been a dereliction of her duty not to investigate "ALL" options for staying.

    I accept that you wish to stay within the UK, and have you down as a lost cause, however I'm currently on 27 ex NO VOTERS who have moved over to YES if Indyref2 happens.

    I'm off to work on a couple of cleaners and the local Janny. Votes to be won.
    Not even going to dignify your suggestion of me getting personal with a response, it's not the first time you've spouted nonsense on this forum and I dare say it will be the last, so crack on. You're arguments are for the most part childish and I'm not getting drawn in to a slagging match about joke comments made or incorrect spelling.

    Most of us, seems to be most on this forum which has always had a majority in favour of independence. However according to the recent yougov poll, most of us still want to stay in the UK despite the imminent Brexit.

  28. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    Not even going to dignify your suggestion of me getting personal with a response, it's not the first time you've spouted nonsense on this forum and I dare say it will be the last, so crack on. You're arguments are for the most part childish and I'm not getting drawn in to a slagging match about joke comments made or incorrect spelling.

    Most of us, seems to be most on this forum which has always had a majority in favour of independence. However according to the recent yougov poll, most of us still want to stay in the UK despite the imminent Brexit.
    Sorry bud, not got a clue what this means so best we leave it there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    Scotland has always wanted to be different to the rest of the UK, that's evident in many aspects not least politics and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. However, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, we voted to stay as part of the UK and as such we should accept the results of a UK vote. Not sure how identity, history, culture and devolved-ness comes into this particular debate.

    I said in an earlier post, that in my view nobody up here seemed to be particularly bothered about the EU referendum until the results were announced. That's reflected in the turnout. Forgetting percentages, the margin of victory for remain was roughly the same as the margin for better together.
    I think it comes into it because of the level of importance to the future of Scotland. A nation dragged into something it clearly does not want is not a good grounding. We accept UK/Tory government because we are in the UK and accept the UK vote. For me, Brexit is the tipping point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Sorry bud, not got a clue what this means so best we leave it there.
    That's fine, I don't expect you to understand. You're best sticking to your main argument which is based completely on a joke comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
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    I think it comes into it because of the level of importance to the future of Scotland. A nation dragged into something it clearly does not want is not a good grounding. We accept UK/Tory government because we are in the UK and accept the UK vote. For me, Brexit is the tipping point.
    Fair do's 👍🏼

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