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  1. #91
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ok, only uk politicians are self serving.

    The EU commission is full of altruistic idealists who do the job for free and hate the power they have.

    Even more ridiculous hyperbole


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  3. #92
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Correct, that's a tough one for them and probably the biggest sticking point. However all politicians love a fudge and joining EFTA on the premise of it becoming some sort of counter weight to the centralising Eurozone EU would still meet the terms of Brexit so it would require a bit of spin but ultimately Brexit would be achieved (just maybe not in the way the anti immigration element perceived it would be which wouldn't cause me to shed any tears)

    Personally I have no problems with it and see the benefits in being able to source labour from across Europe but I'm very much minded that I didn't like the concept of a forever centralising EU taking more and more of a nations powers away in terms of national budgets etc. Contrary to some of the more excited claims I think (personal opinion only of course!) that such views were shared by a lot of Leave voters so you would only be left with the anti immigration lobby crying foul. Which would be a minority so stuff 'em ;-)
    I agree, it does sound like a reasonable situation. And as you've said, it's the anti-immigration group that would possibly be the only ones complaining.

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    There is a good argument that we should, as a nation, be looking after our finances anyway.

    Of course the EU did have deficit rules to prevent such things but they were junked as soon as they became politically awkward.

    On a slightly different note I read a good article by Mathew Lynn yesterday in MoneyWeek (a man that speaks a lot of sense in my opinion) where he argued for Britain to join the EFTA and effectively turn that into a stronger organisation where it could engage with the Eurozone forever closer union style EU on more level terms but be free of the main downsides of the EU (the aforementioned ever closer union). This would allow access to the European free market but at the same time allow the UK to negotiate trade deals globally alongside providing the required heft to allow the EFTA countries to have input into the EU rule making process. Seemed a pretty reasonable compromise to me and one I'll be interested to see if it comes to pass.
    An EEA/EFTA deal does sound like a good compromise way out of the economic risks, but doesn't look like it can happen politically. The Tory leadership candidates have all signed up to blocking free movement. I'm not convinced there's much chance of EFTA providing a counterweight either. The UK would be utterly dominant by population size so it would effectively boil down to UK vs Germany/France/Italy and if we couldn't make that work from inside the EU how's this going to be any different?

  5. #94
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Michael Gove scored a spectacular own goal on Twitter yesterday



    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b073366f0faf62
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    An EEA/EFTA deal does sound like a good compromise way out of the economic risks, but doesn't look like it can happen politically. The Tory leadership candidates have all signed up to blocking free movement. I'm not convinced there's much chance of EFTA providing a counterweight either. The UK would be utterly dominant by population size so it would effectively boil down to UK vs Germany/France/Italy and if we couldn't make that work from inside the EU how's this going to be any different?

    This was always what annoyed me about europe. The uk and germany should have bee qorking together to drive the agenda - if we had ever actually committed to making it work, we should have been coaying up with the jerries on the economy, amd with france on foreign affairs (notwithstanding how useless the eu is at foreign affairs).

    That this didnt happen was definitely our fault though, through our half in, half out position.

    I suppose another consequence of brexit is that the nascent EU foreign policy has beem set-back hugely, possibly permanatly, and the primacy of NATO (if ever in doubt) is secure.

  7. #96
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    Back to a Thatcherite Britain:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36717050

    Hurry up and get indyref2 sorted Nicola.
    Last edited by The Harp Awakes; 06-07-2016 at 01:21 PM.

  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    An EEA/EFTA deal does sound like a good compromise way out of the economic risks, but doesn't look like it can happen politically. The Tory leadership candidates have all signed up to blocking free movement. I'm not convinced there's much chance of EFTA providing a counterweight either. The UK would be utterly dominant by population size so it would effectively boil down to UK vs Germany/France/Italy and if we couldn't make that work from inside the EU how's this going to be any different?
    I suppose the argument is that after the creation of the Euro there was always going to be a two speed Europe. The Euro necessitates ever closer political and fiscal union...which is exactly what the UK and others (incl Denmark) didn't and don't want. That's probably played a large part in why we are where we are.

    Making the EFTA a force to be reckoned with by the UK joining allows the formalisation of that two speed Europe. The EU will be free to crack on with their grand plan to create one super state while the EFTA focuses on developing the common market concept with the EU and separate trade agreements with other countries while enshrining the status of national governments to follow their own fiscal and political agendas.

  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    This was always what annoyed me about europe. The uk and germany should have bee qorking together to drive the agenda - if we had ever actually committed to making it work, we should have been coaying up with the jerries on the economy, amd with france on foreign affairs (notwithstanding how useless the eu is at foreign affairs). That this didnt happen was definitely our fault though, through our half in, half out position. I suppose another consequence of brexit is that the nascent EU foreign policy has beem set-back hugely, possibly permanatly, and the primacy of NATO (if ever in doubt) is secure.
    But a huge part of the problem is what would work for Germany might not work for the UK.

    The constant drive to integrate more and more power to the heart of the EU may well have suited Germany and as I've said above is essential for the long term health of the Euro. Britain and others outside of the Euro had no such need to cede fiscal powers or anything else to the EU beyond what was needed to make the single market work. The EU and the Euro project is wayy more than the single market but in essence that is largely all that the UK needed.

    As for an EU wide foreign policy, just not achievable with so many states with so many interests and is a typical example of just why the EU was causing friction. Allowing foreign policy to be decided at an EU level was never going to work for the UK with its own seat on the UN Security Council for example.

    Better to admit that the EU was heading in a direction that didn't work for a number of nations, allow them to leave and join the EFTA so collaboration could continue on a trade and labour level and let the remainder of the EU get on with doing what they wanted to do..

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    But a huge part of the problem is what would work for Germany might not work for the UK.

    The constant drive to integrate more and more power to the heart of the EU may well have suited Germany and as I've said above is essential for the long term health of the Euro. Britain and others outside of the Euro had no such need to cede fiscal powers or anything else to the EU beyond what was needed to make the single market work. The EU and the Euro project is wayy more than the single market but in essence that is largely all that the UK needed.

    As for an EU wide foreign policy, just not achievable with so many states with so many interests and is a typical example of just why the EU was causing friction. Allowing foreign policy to be decided at an EU level was never going to work for the UK with its own seat on the UN Security Council for example.

    Better to admit that the EU was heading in a direction that didn't work for a number of nations, allow them to leave and join the EFTA so collaboration could continue on a trade and labour level and let the remainder of the EU get on with doing what they wanted to do..
    You make a lot of sense.

    I was more meaning from the outset, rather than as a firw dighting exercise now.

    And yeah you are right about foreign policy, but if the uk and others had led on it, it might have been different. Although probably not.

    Mind you, the migrant and ukraine situations sirely show howuxh the eu needed foreign policy, or at least a better neifhbourhood policy.

  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    You make a lot of sense. I was more meaning from the outset, rather than as a firw dighting exercise now. And yeah you are right about foreign policy, but if the uk and others had led on it, it might have been different. Although probably not. Mind you, the migrant and ukraine situations sirely show howuxh the eu needed foreign policy, or at least a better neifhbourhood policy.
    Cheers! Not often my points are called sensible ;-)

    I think the migrant situation simply showed the flaws in the EU...it's not a super state (yet) and thus simply isn't equipped to deal with such challenges. Again the answer is more and more integration which brings the whole discussion back round in a circle!

  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Cheers! Not often my points are called sensible ;-)

    I think the migrant situation simply showed the flaws in the EU...it's not a super state (yet) and thus simply isn't equipped to deal with such challenges. Again the answer is more and more integration which brings the whole discussion back round in a circle!
    True, and its easy to see how federalists think the answer is more europe.

    Fascinated to see where europe goes from here. Amongst all the rancour and bitterness (on all sides) is the inescapable fact that the EU project is diminished as a result of losing the UK.

  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    True, and its easy to see how federalists think the answer is more europe. Fascinated to see where europe goes from here. Amongst all the rancour and bitterness (on all sides) is the inescapable fact that the EU project is diminished as a result of losing the UK.
    Indeed...I read (a translated) editorial from Der Spiegel that was saying exactly the same thing. It was calling for a fundamental reassessment that examined why such a large member of the EU wanted to leave and how such a situation had come about. I know many people simply blame the Tory's and BoJo and Farange but the truth is that the EU has been under strain for some time and this is just a rather dramatic manifestation of that.

    I'll not hold my breath for an EU introspection though as it was and still is a political project that seems determined to carry on regardless of the outcomes for the millions of people it encapsulates. Cameron's 're-negotiation' proved that to some degree so I stand by my comments that (dependent on some sensible negotiations) the UK and probably the EU are better off accepting the reality of the situation and get on with dealing with it rather than bemoaning the decision. Half glass full view of course but there you go :-)

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Michael Gove scored a spectacular own goal on Twitter yesterday



    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b073366f0faf62
    some of those responses are comedy gold.

  15. #104
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...20160707110366

    I liked this. Very true!

    Slightly more factually, I see the much talked-about "domino effect" of a Brexit is really taking hold:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/08/brexit-causes-resurgence-in-pro-eu-leanings-across-continent
    Last edited by steakbake; 08-07-2016 at 08:41 PM.

  16. #105
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    We should cuddle up to Russia more. Big trade possibilities there.

    They like their whisky and they're mad on Robert Burns for his socialist tendencies.

  17. #106
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    GBP now world's weakest major currency.

    As I saw somewhere, would be pretty amusing if we ended up using the Euro.

  18. #107
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...he-eu-36703799


    This is interesting, a number of large law firms, experts in European law all seem to come to the same conclusion, it needs the UK parliament to create an Act of Parliament to allow to be invoked.
    #Persevered
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  19. #108
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...de-association

    Anyone looking for an EFTA silver lining in the Brexit cloud will find this a bit depressing.

    If this was about Scotland seeking to remain in the EU, the headlines we could expect to see will be "Fresh blow to Sturgeon" or "Norway snubs Scotland..." or something like that.

  20. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...de-association

    Anyone looking for an EFTA silver lining in the Brexit cloud will find this a bit depressing.

    If this was about Scotland seeking to remain in the EU, the headlines we could expect to see will be "Fresh blow to Sturgeon" or "Norway snubs Scotland..." or something like that.
    Meanwhile the FM is in Germany "Plotting" against the UK, rather than looking after Scotlands interests

  21. #110
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Meanwhile the FM is in Germany "Plotting" against the UK, rather than looking after Scotlands interests
    Saw her interview on German TV last night. The line of questioning was obviously intended to portray any chance of Scotland staying in the EU as "Pie in the sky". Sturgeon countered this line of questioning quite well but I can't shake the feeling that Germany are unwilling to come off the fence on EU membership for Scotland because they're worried about that the effect of doing so would have on brexit negotiations. Let's be clear on this, I'm sure they'd welcome Scotland into the EU but are not willing to openly say so until the cards are on the table.

  22. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...de-association

    Anyone looking for an EFTA silver lining in the Brexit cloud will find this a bit depressing.

    If this was about Scotland seeking to remain in the EU, the headlines we could expect to see will be "Fresh blow to Sturgeon" or "Norway snubs Scotland..." or something like that.
    Most likely, you're correct, but this article is a "fresh blow" to who?
    Buy nothing online unless you check for free cashback here first. I've already earned 1,789.68!



  23. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Meanwhile the FM is in Germany "Plotting" against the UK, rather than looking after Scotlands interests
    Presumably, either description would have been accurate.
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  24. #113
    @hibs.net private member AndyM_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Meanwhile the FM is in Germany "Plotting" against the UK, rather than looking after Scotlands interests
    Good on her.
    She's standing up for Scotland as we voted to stay in Europe

  25. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyM_1875 View Post
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    Good on her.
    She's standing up for Scotland as we voted to stay in Europe
    Without really wanting to go back over this argument as its been done to death...we also voted to stay part of the U.K which means accepting the results of a UK referendum. But I suppose Sturgeon and the SNP aren't very good at accepting referendum results.

  26. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    Without really wanting to go back over this argument as its been done to death...we also voted to stay part of the U.K which means accepting the results of a UK referendum. But I suppose Sturgeon and the SNP aren't very good at accepting referendum results.
    With the former having as a key argument the need to vote No to ensure EU membership for Scotland, then darn tooting it should be challenged

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
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    With the former having as a key argument the need to vote No to ensure EU membership for Scotland, then darn tooting it should be challenged
    It was an argument but I disagree that it was a 'key' argument.

    In any event, the no vote did secure EU membership, albeit for a short time and with the benefit of hindsight.

    A yes vote was anybodies guess and therefore it was a valid argument at the time.

  28. #117
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    Without really wanting to go back over this argument as its been done to death...we also voted to stay part of the U.K which means accepting the results of a UK referendum. But I suppose Sturgeon and the SNP aren't very good at accepting referendum results.
    It's a fair point in some ways, but it is a bit of a phyrric one.

    Does that mean that people in Scotland now must always accept whatever happens in the UK, come what may, and even if it is in direct opposition to the national interest here?

    Are you happy with the fact that we are being taken out of the European Union, even though the majority of people who voted on this in Scotland, did not back it?

  29. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    It's a fair point in some ways, but it is a bit of a phyrric one.

    Does that mean that people in Scotland now must always accept whatever happens in the UK, come what may, and even if it is in direct opposition to the national interest here?

    Are you happy with the fact that we are being taken out of the European Union, even though the majority of people who voted on this in Scotland, did not back it?
    I take your point and see where you're coming from. But as part of the U.K. then yes we have to accept it - that's democracy for you and it's not 'democratically unacceptable' like sturgeon said it was.

    As I seen it, there wasn't many people who were particularly bothered about the EU vote before it happened. I also include myself in that category, because I wasn't really fussed that I missed my opportunity to vote due to a delayed flight. It only seems to be in hindsight that people are bothering about it and a large part of the reason for that is because of Sturgeon and SNP stirring people's emotions again.

  30. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by #FromTheCapital View Post
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    I take your point and see where you're coming from. But as part of the U.K. then yes we have to accept it - that's democracy for you and it's not 'democratically unacceptable' like sturgeon said it was.

    As I seen it, there wasn't many people who were particularly bothered about the EU vote before it happened. I also include myself in that category, because I wasn't really fussed that I missed my opportunity to vote due to a delayed flight. It only seems to be in hindsight that people are bothering about it and a large part of the reason for that is because of Sturgeon and SNP stirring people's emotions again.
    You could extend that to say if the referendum had been Yes then as part of the UK who wanted us to stay then we couldn't have left! There is a genuine political imbalance caused by Brexit, and I don't think a stance of "tough" is a good one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
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    You could extend that to say if the referendum had been Yes then as part of the UK who wanted us to stay then we couldn't have left! There is a genuine political imbalance caused by Brexit, and I don't think a stance of "tough" is a good one.
    Not sure what you're getting at here? The independence referendum was a Scottish only vote and the EU vote was UK, what point are you trying to make?

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