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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    See, that's the kind of disrespect and jingoism that was the trademark of Leave.
    Ha ha, ok then.

    Out come all these committed Europhiles who are students of minor European countries and their domestic political systems.

    I didnt realise there wered so many students of Luxemburgian (?) politics on Hibs.Net.

    Shame on me.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 05-07-2016 at 10:05 AM.


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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    What you mean is YOU don't care about the PM of Luxemburg (it's got an initial capital) and YOU can't name any other former or current Luxemburg PMs.

    That kind of attitude would get you elected leader of UKIP.
    Away and boil yer heid.

    Are you seriously telling me that you know, and that more importantly, the wider public, anywhere in Europe, know, or care about who the PM of Lux is?

    Absolute tripe.

    But yes you are right, i dont care about the politics, or political leaders of Lux. And to make a name for themselves, former Lux PMs have to become committed European federalists.

    If only they knew they were all so famous and admired here in Scotland...
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 05-07-2016 at 10:07 AM.

  4. #63
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    What happens next?

    Obviously I am no expert but I understand this in the Brexit saga:

    The Italian banks will need another bail out from the EU tax payer and now thankfully the people of the UK do not need to pay towards failed Italian banks that did not fix their bad loan problem out when they should have done over 4 years ago.

  5. #64
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Youre missing the point.

    Yes, they have made big impacts on europe, that is the whole point. Europe has served them very well, of course they are committed federalists.

    Otherwise they would be another (unknown) former PM of Lux.

    They are feathering their own nest as much as any other politician does.
    Think you are the one "missing the point", it being that a small country in Europe can make a major contribution to the vision that is the European Union. Of course they are federalists - they are deeply committed to the idea of the EU and it is "federalist" by nature. The last part of your post is pointless polemic ...

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    Think you are the one "missing the point", it being that a small country in Europe can make a major contribution to the vision that is the European Union. Of course they are federalists - they are deeply committed to the idea of the EU and it is "federalist" by nature. The last part of your post is pointless polemic ...
    That is never wjat i said or what the point was. So yoy have missed it.

    I wad making the point, in response to someone saying that uk politicians were self-serving, that the same applies to eurocrats.

    The point being that junker was a complete unknown anywhere other than Lux (because nobody outside lux cares about lux domestic politics - except of course for the squad of commmited lux observers here) until he became a european politician - therefore his federalism is as much about self-service as senior tories being brexit.

    THAT was the point - nothing about the influence or otherwise of individual member states, which has never come up.

    But well done for jumping in and getting it wrong.

  7. #66
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    That is never wjat i said or what the point was. So yoy have missed it.

    I wad making the point, in response to someone saying that uk politicians were self-serving, that the same applies to eurocrats.

    The point being that junker was a complete unknown anywhere other than Lux (because nobody outside lux cares about lux domestic politics - except of course for the squad of commmited lux observers here) until he became a european politician - therefore his federalism is as much about self-service as senior tories being brexit.

    THAT was the point - nothing about the influence or otherwise of individual member states, which has never come up.

    But well done for jumping in and getting it wrong.

    Seems to me that you're the one that isn't getting anything! Juncker is not a complete unknown anywhere other than Luxembourg, he never was, he was/is well-known here in Europe (sic)! To YOU he may be an unknown, that may well simply down to your lack of knowledge of politics beyond the UK arena, an insular quality greatly in evidence of late, I may say. Juncker's ability as a domestic politician is what furthered his career in Europe, it wasn't the other way round. The fact YOU have only picked up on him since recent debates about Europe in the UK does not mean he is/was a complete unknown, nor that Luxembourg is somehow not important. There is a reason why people outside Luxembourg cared about his domestic policies and why much criticism can be levelled at him ...




  8. #67
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasta_Hibs View Post
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    What happens next?

    Obviously I am no expert but I understand this in the Brexit saga:

    The Italian banks will need another bail out from the EU tax payer and now thankfully the people of the UK do not need to pay towards failed Italian banks that did not fix their bad loan problem out when they should have done over 4 years ago.
    We have our own failed banks to deal with, the downgrading of the UK's credit standard which will put up the cost of national borrowing and also likely have a recession coming up fast, a collapse of our currency to 1980s levels and essentially, we will have to print money to keep the economy solvent. As long as we're not bailing out the Italians and gloss over the fact that when our banks collapsed in 2008, a proportion of the bailout money came from the ECB... which we're now cutting ourselves off from... then we can maintain our splendid isolation.

    But no, we are far too important now to need EU bailouts. Just as well, because we won't be getting any and we'll need to find the money down the back of the national sofa.
    Last edited by steakbake; 05-07-2016 at 12:18 PM.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    Seems to me that you're the one that isn't getting anything! Juncker is not a complete unknown anywhere other than Luxembourg, he never was, he was/is well-known here in Europe (sic)! To YOU he may be an unknown, that may well simply down to your lack of knowledge of politics beyond the UK arena, an insular quality greatly in evidence of late, I may say. Juncker's ability as a domestic politician is what furthered his career in Europe, it wasn't the other way round. The fact YOU have only picked up on him since recent debates about Europe in the UK does not mean he is/was a complete unknown, nor that Luxembourg is somehow not important. There is a reason why people outside Luxembourg cared about his domestic policies and why much criticism can be levelled at him ...



    Just parrotting Farage, the former merchant banker, serial non-attender of his highly paid day job, who lectured people about having proper jobs.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    That is never wjat i said or what the point was. So yoy have missed it.

    I wad making the point, in response to someone saying that uk politicians were self-serving, that the same applies to eurocrats.

    The point being that junker was a complete unknown anywhere other than Lux (because nobody outside lux cares about lux domestic politics - except of course for the squad of commmited lux observers here) until he became a european politician - therefore his federalism is as much about self-service as senior tories being brexit.

    THAT was the point - nothing about the influence or otherwise of individual member states, which has never come up.

    But well done for jumping in and getting it wrong.

    that's so ridiculous it's laughable.

    Whether he was an unknown or not, gives absolutely NO credence to your assertion that he's self serving.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    that's so ridiculous it's laughable. Whether he was an unknown or not, gives absolutely NO credence to your assertion that he's self serving.
    True but then why not pick up on the post that called ALL British politicians self serving, like we had a special breed of politician that no other country has?

  12. #71
    [QUOTE=PeeJay;4751181]Seems to me that you're the one that isn't getting anything! Juncker is not a complete unknown anywhere other than Luxembourg, he never was, he was/is well-known here in Europe (sic)! To YOU he may be an unknown, that may well simply down to your lack of knowledge of politics beyond the UK arena, an insular quality greatly in evidence of late, I may say. Juncker's ability as a domestic politician is what furthered his career in Europe, it wasn't the other way round. The fact YOU have only picked up on him since recent debates about Europe in the UK does not mean he is/was a complete unknown, nor that Luxembourg is somehow not important. There is a reason why people outside Luxembourg cared about his domestic policies and why much criticism can be levelled at him ...



    Juncker - the former leader of Tax-haven Luxembourg, hardly a mandate to be mouthpiece of the EU. This guy has dedicated his career to ensuring society becomes less fair, that wealthy institutions and individuals can avoid taxes little people and small businesses must pay. Juncker turned Luxembourg into a tax haven far bigger than say, the cayman islands because it benefits from the EU free movement off capital. More dangerously his policies then inspire the Netherlands, Ireland and other EU states following beggar-thy-neighbour tax policies to join it in a race to the bottom. He's the Sepp Blatter of EU politics.

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    We have our own failed banks to deal with, the downgrading of the UK's credit standard which will put up the cost of national borrowing and also likely have a recession coming up fast, a collapse of our currency to 1980s levels and essentially, we will have to print money to keep the economy solvent. As long as we're not bailing out the Italians and gloss over the fact that when our banks collapsed in 2008, a proportion of the bailout money came from the ECB... which we're now cutting ourselves off from... then we can maintain our splendid isolation. But no, we are far too important now to need EU bailouts. Just as well, because we won't be getting any and we'll need to find the money down the back of the national sofa.
    There is a good argument that we should, as a nation, be looking after our finances anyway.

    Of course the EU did have deficit rules to prevent such things but they were junked as soon as they became politically awkward.

    On a slightly different note I read a good article by Mathew Lynn yesterday in MoneyWeek (a man that speaks a lot of sense in my opinion) where he argued for Britain to join the EFTA and effectively turn that into a stronger organisation where it could engage with the Eurozone forever closer union style EU on more level terms but be free of the main downsides of the EU (the aforementioned ever closer union). This would allow access to the European free market but at the same time allow the UK to negotiate trade deals globally alongside providing the required heft to allow the EFTA countries to have input into the EU rule making process. Seemed a pretty reasonable compromise to me and one I'll be interested to see if it comes to pass.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    Seems to me that you're the one that isn't getting anything! Juncker is not a complete unknown anywhere other than Luxembourg, he never was, he was/is well-known here in Europe (sic)! To YOU he may be an unknown, that may well simply down to your lack of knowledge of politics beyond the UK arena, an insular quality greatly in evidence of late, I may say. Juncker's ability as a domestic politician is what furthered his career in Europe, it wasn't the other way round. The fact YOU have only picked up on him since recent debates about Europe in the UK does not mean he is/was a complete unknown, nor that Luxembourg is somehow not important. There is a reason why people outside Luxembourg cared about his domestic policies and why much criticism can be levelled at him ...




    Ok then, youre so worldly wise.

    The publix at large fall over themselves to observe lux politics. Im just an ignoramus.

    Junker was a household name before he became a top european bureaucrat. I stand corrected.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    that's so ridiculous it's laughable.

    Whether he was an unknown or not, gives absolutely NO credence to your assertion that he's self serving.
    Ok, only uk politicians are self serving.

    The EU commission is full of altruistic idealists who do the job for free and hate the power they have.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ok, only uk politicians are self serving.

    The EU commission is full of altruistic idealists who do the job for free and hate the power they have.
    Difference is. We're close enough to UK politicians to know that they are self serving. As you pointed out yourself, very few people in this country know much of anything about EU politicians. So how can we state one way or another as to whether they're self serving or not?

  17. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    Just parrotting Farage, the former merchant banker, serial non-attender of his highly paid day job, who lectured people about having proper jobs.
    Ha ha, ok.

    Im not as it goes. But hey, rather than engage with arguments that challenge the worldview, its easier just to dismiss them.

    Its little wonder that remain did so badly.

  18. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ok then, youre so worldly wise.

    The publix at large fall over themselves to observe lux politics. Im just an ignoramus.

    Junker was a household name before he became a top european bureaucrat. I stand corrected.
    Perhaps not "worldy" just "euro" wise - glad you have finally seen the light

  19. #78
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ok then, youre so worldly wise.

    The publix at large fall over themselves to observe lux politics. Im just an ignoramus.

    Junker was a household name before he became a top european bureaucrat. I stand corrected.
    Peejay lives in Germany. By the very nature of mainland Europe, he's going to be more aware of his neighbours' politics and personalities than the, naturally, insular Brits.

  20. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    Difference is. We're close enough to UK politicians to know that they are self serving. As you pointed out yourself, very few people in this country know much of anything about EU politicians. So how can we state one way or another as to whether they're self serving or not?
    Apparently not high-on-hibs, apparently junker was very well known in his pre-EU days.

    Well it is just opinion, ultimately. Based on my knowledge amd experiences of politics, and european politics.

    And basded on observation. For example, that the german finance minister is apparently furious at junker for pouring petrol on the brexit flames, and germany are plotting his removal and are marginalising him from brexit negotiations.

    Supposedly they want the commission marginalised in favour of the council when it comes to brexit negotiations.

  21. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Peejay lives in Germany. By the very nature of mainland Europe, he's going to be more aware of his neighbours' politics and personalities than the, naturally, insular Brits.
    My point was that junker has become a household name and powerful man because of the eu. Without the eu, he would be an ex-pm of lux. Therefore his personal interests lie in a strong and powerful eu just as much as senior tories interests (may) lie in brexit.

    Whether he is, or is not, well known for his time as pm of lux or not is a matter of opinion. He may well be in Germany. And maybe germans take a keen interest in lux. If they do, i stand corrected.

    I dount very much that most people in the uk, or across europe, could name any ex lux PMs who havent made their names through the EU, which is really the point i was making.

  22. #81
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=mmmmhibby;4751200]
    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    Seems to me that you're the one that isn't getting anything! Juncker is not a complete unknown anywhere other than Luxembourg, he never was, he was/is well-known here in Europe (sic)! To YOU he may be an unknown, that may well simply down to your lack of knowledge of politics beyond the UK arena, an insular quality greatly in evidence of late, I may say. Juncker's ability as a domestic politician is what furthered his career in Europe, it wasn't the other way round. The fact YOU have only picked up on him since recent debates about Europe in the UK does not mean he is/was a complete unknown, nor that Luxembourg is somehow not important. There is a reason why people outside Luxembourg cared about his domestic policies and why much criticism can be levelled at him ...



    Juncker - the former leader of Tax-haven Luxembourg, hardly a mandate to be mouthpiece of the EU. This guy has dedicated his career to ensuring society becomes less fair, that wealthy institutions and individuals can avoid taxes little people and small businesses must pay. Juncker turned Luxembourg into a tax haven far bigger than say, the cayman islands because it benefits from the EU free movement off capital. More dangerously his policies then inspire the Netherlands, Ireland and other EU states following beggar-thy-neighbour tax policies to join it in a race to the bottom. He's the Sepp Blatter of EU politics.
    All fair points: but let's not pretend: there is a much greater problem in the UK with money laundering, tax evasion, off-shore accounts, but as ever the Brits prefer to blame Europe and well, why not pick on one of the little countries and some supposedly "unknown" eurocrat - all helps in the process of disinformation? By the way, who is stopping the UK from fixing it's problems in this area? Hedge fund regulation anyone? I guess you'll suggest it was the EU, but now the UK's left it can no doubt fix it all! Except - it was never really the fault of the EU, it was all within the remit of the UK government, all the time, so there must be another reason why the UK hasn't fixed it - what could that be, I wonder?



  23. #82
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ha ha, ok.

    Im not as it goes. But hey, rather than engage with arguments that challenge the worldview, its easier just to dismiss them.

    Its little wonder that remain did so badly.
    Not in Scotland, they didn't.

  24. #83
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    There is a good argument that we should, as a nation, be looking after our finances anyway.

    Of course the EU did have deficit rules to prevent such things but they were junked as soon as they became politically awkward.

    On a slightly different note I read a good article by Mathew Lynn yesterday in MoneyWeek (a man that speaks a lot of sense in my opinion) where he argued for Britain to join the EFTA and effectively turn that into a stronger organisation where it could engage with the Eurozone forever closer union style EU on more level terms but be free of the main downsides of the EU (the aforementioned ever closer union). This would allow access to the European free market but at the same time allow the UK to negotiate trade deals globally alongside providing the required heft to allow the EFTA countries to have input into the EU rule making process. Seemed a pretty reasonable compromise to me and one I'll be interested to see if it comes to pass.
    It is something. Wouldn't EFTA bring free movement of labour, though?

    Something the Brexit politicians will have to square.

  25. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    It is something. Wouldn't EFTA bring free movement of labour, though? Something the Brexit politicians will have to square.
    Correct, that's a tough one for them and probably the biggest sticking point. However all politicians love a fudge and joining EFTA on the premise of it becoming some sort of counter weight to the centralising Eurozone EU would still meet the terms of Brexit so it would require a bit of spin but ultimately Brexit would be achieved (just maybe not in the way the anti immigration element perceived it would be which wouldn't cause me to shed any tears)

    Personally I have no problems with it and see the benefits in being able to source labour from across Europe but I'm very much minded that I didn't like the concept of a forever centralising EU taking more and more of a nations powers away in terms of national budgets etc. Contrary to some of the more excited claims I think (personal opinion only of course!) that such views were shared by a lot of Leave voters so you would only be left with the anti immigration lobby crying foul. Which would be a minority so stuff 'em ;-)

  26. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    Not in Scotland, they didn't.
    Ha ha, now whos being parochial.

    But remain did lose, it was a national referendum as well you know.

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    Brexit should not be blocked - England made its choice and there's no going back.

    It should also happen so the rest of the EU can watch rUK implode/Scotland prosper and realise it would be a terrible idea for any of them to do it.


    1-1, 1-1, 2-0, 2-2, 1-0, 0-0, 3-1, 1-0

  28. #87
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    The First Minister continues to reach out to our European neighbours.

    Cmmhpy9W8AA7P6r.jpg

    A nice article from Liam McIlvaney

    https://t.co/VBhNZGNKL5
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 05-07-2016 at 05:01 PM.

  29. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    The First Minister continues to reach out to our European neighbours.

    Cmmhpy9W8AA7P6r.jpg
    A disgrace. No manners. All those ignorant European males sitting making oor Nikki stand!
    Space to let

  30. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    A disgrace. No manners. All those ignorant European males sitting making oor Nikki stand!
    Well they canny have they Scots going over there, stealing their chairs. ..

    Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

  31. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    True but then why not pick up on the post that called ALL British politicians self serving, like we had a special breed of politician that no other country has?

    Good point - our politicians are generally no better or worse than anywhere else

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