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  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    No they didn't.

    52% of passengers on a bus decided the driver should drive them to the beach. The driver has decided to take the shortest route (over the cliff). Now all those 48% that voted against the beach and a good many of the 52% who voted for it are screaming in panick.
    To most voters the single market and the EU are one in the same...to suggest that they voted to leave the EU without knowing that meant leaving the single market is rather fanciful, about as fanciful as your analogy.

    The only people I hear screaming in panic are those that still haven't come to terms with the result with calls on parliament to ignore the reform result to demands for a referendum on the terms of the withdrawal and anything in between.


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  3. #662
    @hibs.net private member CapitalGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    Exactly. Voters aren't as thick as some like to make out.
    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    What's over the cliff that has everyone so worried?
    lol

  4. #663
    Brexit will be the beginning of the end for the Union, in my opinion. This will all start in Northern Ireland as there's very little to absolutely no way to avoid angering either the Republicans or Loyalists without angering the anti-immigration UKIP/Tory supporters. Hard border between Norn Iron and the Republic and there will be riots from the Republicans. Hard border in mainland ports instead but none between Republic and North and there'll be riots from Loyalists as they will see this as a threat to their "Britishness". Either way, Northern Ireland could be plunged back into the 1970s and the SNP will win the next independence referendum, they won't hold it until they know they will win.

  5. #664
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    What's over the cliff that has everyone so worried?
    A rock and a hard place.

  6. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    A rock and a hard place.
    Lol, we will have to disagree, but I do like your wit😁

    I am confident that we will manage. We do need everyone to be committed to the cause though an pull together which will be the difficult thing, especially when there will be too many opportunities for our childish politicians to point score. Lots of good ideas will be dismissed or poopooed simply cos it was the wrong side that came up with it. That will be the single biggest stumbling block imo.

  7. #666
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    To most voters the single market and the EU are one in the same...to suggest that they voted to leave the EU without knowing that meant leaving the single market is rather fanciful, about as fanciful as your analogy.

    The only people I hear screaming in panic are those that still haven't come to terms with the result with calls on parliament to ignore the reform result to demands for a referendum on the terms of the withdrawal and anything in between.
    But exactly what brexit meant wasn't clarified before the referendum. At least now that it will be put to parliament our politicians can be held to account by their constituents on how they vote.

  8. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by ErinGoBraghHFC View Post
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    Brexit will be the beginning of the end for the Union, in my opinion. This will all start in Northern Ireland as there's very little to absolutely no way to avoid angering either the Republicans or Loyalists without angering the anti-immigration UKIP/Tory supporters. Hard border between Norn Iron and the Republic and there will be riots from the Republicans. Hard border in mainland ports instead but none between Republic and North and there'll be riots from Loyalists as they will see this as a threat to their "Britishness". Either way, Northern Ireland could be plunged back into the 1970s and the SNP will win the next independence referendum, they won't hold it until they know they will win.
    I hope the snp gets an effing grip and stops the threats. I think we would lose again and it would need to be put to bed for a long while. Let's wait and see what brexit means first ffs. I was yes, but would vote no as the uncertainty bout what brexit means I might be more taken with what's on offer. I am not alone in changing from yes to no, at least amongst some I have spoken with. Let's give it 5 years and take stock then. Who knows it may enhance our bargaining position, plus who knows what will happen in other countries i.e France, Netherlands to see the outcome of their elections.
    Last edited by beensaidbefore; 24-01-2017 at 04:05 PM.

  9. #668
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErinGoBraghHFC View Post
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    Brexit will be the beginning of the end for the Union, in my opinion. This will all start in Northern Ireland as there's very little to absolutely no way to avoid angering either the Republicans or Loyalists without angering the anti-immigration UKIP/Tory supporters. Hard border between Norn Iron and the Republic and there will be riots from the Republicans. Hard border in mainland ports instead but none between Republic and North and there'll be riots from Loyalists as they will see this as a threat to their "Britishness". Either way, Northern Ireland could be plunged back into the 1970s and the SNP will win the next independence referendum, they won't hold it until they know they will win.
    If there's a hard border between NI and the UK then there'll be a lot of questions to be answered as to why Scotland couldn't be given the same deal. It's an utter mess that pretty much guarantees the break up of the UK or worse.

  10. #669
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    A rock and a hard place.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  11. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    I hope the snp gets an effing grip and stops the threats. I think we would lose again and it would need to be put to bed for a long while. Let's wait and see what brexit means first ffs. I was yes, but would vote no as the uncertainty bout what brexit means I might be more taken with what's on offer. I am not alone in changing from yes to no, at least amongst some I have spoken with. Let's give it 5 years and take stock then. Who knows it may enhance our bargaining position, plus who knows what will happen in other countries i.e France, Netherlands to see the outcome of their elections.
    No arguments on that they need to give it time for the dust to settle, not a big fan of the EU but the fact 68% of Scots voted to remain gives the SNP a big advantage to campaign for an independence in the not so distant future, I'd always vote for independence personally unless any significant changes in circumstances were to arise ie oil etc. Can't understand the people on either side that would support the Union or independence blindly

  12. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    But exactly what brexit meant wasn't clarified before the referendum. At least now that it will be put to parliament our politicians can be held to account by their constituents on how they vote.
    The vote was to leave the EU. Article 50 is invoked to leave the EU.

    Only those who wish to remain in the EU at any cost (including ignoring the result of a U.K. wide referendum) would argue that should not now happen due to a parliamentary vote.

  13. #672
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    The vote was to leave the EU. Article 50 is invoked to leave the EU.

    Only those who wish to remain in the EU at any cost (including ignoring the result of a U.K. wide referendum) would argue that should not now happen due to a parliamentary vote.
    You make a lot of assumptions for a lot of people. The referendum was advisory and as the supreme court ruled today that advice was intended for parliament to decide and not intended to allow the tory party to do as they please.

  14. #673
    I think it was the correct decision today to allow Parliament to vote on the triggering of article 50. I have no doubt that the will of the people will be carried out and we will leave the EU. Giving the MP's a vote will give the result of the referendum the respect it deserves.

    I know a couple of Yes voters who will now vote No if the SNP go ahead with their threat of indyref2. They understand it was a UK wide vote on the UK's membership of the EU.

    Scotland needs an indyref 2 like a hole in it's budget which is exactly what it would give. The union between Scotland and the rest of the UK is far more important to the scottish people and i think the SNP are going to learn this the hard way, again.

    But Sturgeon brought this on herself by over playing her hand. She should have shown respect to the result of the EU referendum and solidarity with the rest of the UK and no went out her way to make threats.

    Interesting times for sure.

  15. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    You make a lot of assumptions for a lot of people. The referendum was advisory and as the supreme court ruled today that advice was intended for parliament to decide and not intended to allow the tory party to do as they please.
    Oh please...This has nothing to do with the Tory party but all to do with the enacting of the result of a UK wide referendum.

    And anyway the court didn't rule that parliament 'can decide' but that parliamentary authority was required for the government to invoke article 50.

    On what rational basis can parliament (the same one that authorised the vote in the first place) not provide that authority?

  16. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    You make a lot of assumptions for a lot of people. The referendum was advisory and as the supreme court ruled today that advice was intended for parliament to decide and not intended to allow the tory party to do as they please.
    You will know as well as I do that politics is all about maneuvering, strategy and deals struck behind the scenes as well as the grubbier side which includes machiavellian type posturing and lobbying.

    For me today was a turning point in brexit. I believe there is now a way to achieve a 'soft' brexit. Article 50 will be activated however before then there will be huge opposition to a 'hard' brexit.

    Today's ruling paves the way for the opposition to demand a 'Norway style' relationship with the EU. This will grant us access to the single market through the EEA agreement (European Economic Area) and will leave us as part of the Schengen Agreement which will allow access for workers across the EU to come to the UK without restrictions.

    Part of this deal would also and very importantly include us retaining access to the ECHR and the articles of the Human Rights Act 1998.

    I believe this was always going to be the outcome. Personally I am absolutely delighted the opposition will now be enabled to argue the case in parliament that a 'soft' brexit is the only outcome they will accept and it is non-negotiable.

    I strongly predict the ruling today has given the opposition to a 'hard' brexit the 'nuts' to coin a poker hand term.

    Glory Glory

  17. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    You will know as well as I do that politics is all about maneuvering, strategy and deals struck behind the scenes as well as the grubbier side which includes machiavellian type posturing and lobbying.

    For me today was a turning point in brexit. I believe there is now a way to achieve a 'soft' brexit. Article 50 will be activated however before then there will be huge opposition to a 'hard' brexit.

    Today's ruling paves the way for the opposition to demand a 'Norway style' relationship with the EU. This will grant us access to the single market through the EEA agreement (European Economic Area) and will leave us as part of the Schengen Agreement which will allow access for workers across the EU to come to the UK without restrictions.

    Part of this deal would also and very importantly include us retaining access to the ECHR and the articles of the Human Rights Act 1998.

    I believe this was always going to be the outcome. Personally I am absolutely delighted the opposition will now be enabled to argue the case in parliament that a 'soft' brexit is the only outcome they will accept and it is non-negotiable.

    I strongly predict the ruling today has given the opposition to a 'hard' brexit the 'nuts' to coin a poker hand term.

    Glory Glory
    Interesting post, I hadn't considered this.
    Your suggestion would also offer a way out for Sturgeon and Scotland.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  18. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    Interesting post, I hadn't considered this.
    Your suggestion would also offer a way out for Sturgeon and Scotland.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I actually meant to include a paragraph on that very topic which is exactly what you have stated. It will indeed solve that particular notion.

    Glory Glory

  19. #678
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    Interesting post, I hadn't considered this.
    Your suggestion would also offer a way out for Sturgeon and Scotland.


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    We are not in Schengen.

  20. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    We are not in Schengen.
    Ok fair enough, but the gist of the post was about finding a way through to a softer Brexit, and in particular staying in the single market, which is one of Sturgeon's aims.
    Ok so, Schengen.

  21. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    We are not in Schengen.
    Fair comment.

    However the point is if the UK agrees to a Norway style soft brexit with free access to the worlds biggest single market it would have to agree to be part of the Schengen Agreement whereby allowing free movement for EU workers and vice versa for UK citizens.

    Glory Glory

  22. #681
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    Ok fair enough, but the gist of the post was about finding a way through to a softer Brexit, and in particular staying in the single market, which is one of Sturgeon's aims.
    Ok so, Schengen.
    I just don't see it happening that way.

    Parliament will vote on A50, it will be enacted.

    I her speech, May has offered a vote and specifically it is to vote for the agreement and go with that, or vote against any agreement. Either way, we are out the EU either on a deal of some sort of completely out and operating WTO rules.

    We are not going to get a Norway situation because expressly, May's stated intention is to take us out of the common market.

    We will have a different relationship with Europe and there won't be freedom of movement. She was clear on that in the terms she set out.

    She also wants to take us out of the ECHR, althought it has nothing to do with the EU.

    She's not about to pull us out of the EU, primarily leading with her immigration concerns the swiftly put us into Schengen - ie, the singe European immigration area.

    There will be no soft Brexit if she gets her way.
    Last edited by steakbake; 24-01-2017 at 08:21 PM.

  23. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    I just don't see it happening that way.

    Parliament will vote on A50, it will be enacted.

    I her speech, May has offered a vote and specifically it is to vote for the agreement and go with that, or vote against any agreement. Either way, we are out the EU.

    We are not going to get a Norway situation because expressly, May's stated intention is to take us out of the common market.

    We will have a different relationship with Europe and there won't be freedom of movement. She was clear on that in the terms she set out.

    She also wants to take us out of the ECHR, althought it has nothing to do with the EU.
    Unfortunately for May she will now have an opposition to contend with whom will be able to demand a soft brexit in order for Article 50 to be activated. Jeremy Corbyn could actually do very well out of this if he plays his cards right and a soft brexit is achieved.

    Glory Glory

  24. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    Unfortunately for May she will now have an opposition to contend with whom will be able to demand a soft brexit in order for Article 50 to be activated. Jeremy Corbyn could actually do very well out of this if he plays his cards right and a soft brexit is achieved.

    Glory Glory
    Jeremy Corbyn:

    "Ive made it very clear the Labour party accepts and respects the decision of the British people. We will not block article 50.

  25. #684
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Jeremy Corbyn:

    "Ive made it very clear the Labour party accepts and respects the decision of the British people. We will not block article 50.
    Exactly this. I am sorry to insist that Corbyn and Labour will not be altering the course towards a soft Brexit. They may win the odd amendment or two if they can find favour with others in the Commons to produce a majority, should that go to a vote. However, we are not about to find the best parts of EU/single market membership being rescued by Labour.

    The jig is up and we are on the way out of the EU, single market, ECJ, probably the customs union in large parts and I'd safely bet in 2020, we will be on our way out of the ECHR and the European Convention.

  26. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Jeremy Corbyn:

    "I’ve made it very clear the Labour party accepts and respects the decision of the British people. We will not block article 50.”
    The Brexiteers did not vote for a hard brexit. It was never made clear it would entail exiting the worlds biggest trading market. The ruling now paves the way for the opposition to demand a soft Norway style brexit. The opposition have every right to stand up against the hard brexit that will be detrimental and demand amendments that would include remaining in the single market. Today's ruling was a game changer. Jeremy is a politician and is allowed to change his viewpoint if it is in the wider countries interests. He could appear to be a politician of substance if he plays his cards right.

    Why are you against a soft Norway style brexit? What's your view?

    Glory Glory
    Last edited by northstandhibby; 24-01-2017 at 09:04 PM.

  27. #686
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    The Brexiteers did not vote for a hard brexit. The ruling now paves the way for the opposition to demand a soft Norway style brexit. They have every right to stand up against the hard brexit that will be detrimental and demand amendments. Today's ruling was a game changer.

    Why are you against a soft Norway style brexit? What's your view?

    Glory Glory
    I'm afraid they did. That's exactly the point. They voted for whatever type of Brexit the UK government deemed fit and May has made her stance pretty clear.

    You can certainly find ample evidence of key Brexiteers saying it would be madness to leave the single market etc. But that is not what they are going to get.

    If we are looking for a Brexit which will meaningfully secure workers rights, environmental protections and a range of other safeguards and not turn us into some kind of Atlantic sweatshop, then Labour had better step up to the plate and pretty damn soon. But that will be after the fact, once we are on the way out.

    Everything has changed.

  28. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    The right decision. Parliament should of course have the final say.

    Now its time for Labour and the other sensible politicians to take a stand against the right wing little englanders. Make a case for remaining in the EU. Even if it means taking criticism. They could always argue for a new vote as they would win it as folks have began to realise they were fooled by the likes of gove and johnson.

    It is the right thing to do.

    Glory Glory
    Correct me if im wrong but...the people voted too leave!

    These imbeciles are paid to represent us...so why do they have final say? They are paid to represent what the people want after all.

    Why was there not 2 votes on independance? Thats the law afterall!
    Last edited by Ryan69; 24-01-2017 at 09:10 PM.

  29. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    I'm afraid they did. That's exactly the point. They voted for whatever type of Brexit the UK government deemed fit and May has made her stance pretty clear.

    You can certainly find ample evidence of key Brexiteers saying it would be madness to leave the single market etc. But that is not what they are going to get.

    If we are looking for a Brexit which will meaningfully secure workers rights, environmental protections and a range of other safeguards and not turn us into some kind of Atlantic sweatshop, then Labour had better step up to the plate and pretty damn soon. But that will be after the fact, once we are on the way out.

    Everything has changed.
    The ruling today removed May from the equation. It is now up to parliament to decide what type of brexit will be acceptable in a vote. There will be an extraordinary amount of deals being done behind the scenes and I strongly predict a soft brexit will be achieved.

    It is in the countries interests and the ruling today allowed the opposition to head off a hard brexit.

    Glory Glory

  30. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    The Brexiteers did not vote for a hard brexit. The ruling now paves the way for the opposition to demand a soft Norway style brexit. They have every right to stand up against the hard brexit that will be detrimental and demand amendments. Today's ruling was a game changer.

    Why are you against a soft Norway style brexit? What's your view?

    Glory Glory
    I would politely suggest that today's verdict paves the way for nothing more than parliament to authorise article 50 to be invoked and changes nothing in terms of parliament demanding anything.

    My view is that despite what some say the vote was pretty clear...leave the EU. Doing so then basically rejoining under another guise would be quite clearly a significant sleight of hand.

    My personal opinion of soft or hard or total or partial or not is neither here nor there in making that judgement, it's just rather bleedin' obvious.

    But since you asked ;-) I'm relatively relaxed about the whole thing. Would have been happy to stay in but can see plenty reasons not to and as the vote was not to we should just crack on and get it done.

    The 'Norway' option is not a real option in my mind...it's far too similar to being in the EU and to be honest looks a poor choice compared to being just in or just out. I know why it's being proposed but largely it's being proposed by those that really just wanted to stay in the EU.

    Finally I'm pretty convinced the EU is stuffed anyway and the economic and financial stresses tearing it apart will surface in political upheaval and ultimately its demise. From the crushed Greeks to the skint Italians to the grumpy Dutch to the 44% unemployed youth in Spain to the Germans desperately trying to stop Deutsche Bank from bringing down the whole house of cards there is plenty of evidence to show all is not well.

  31. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    I would politely suggest that today's verdict paves the way for nothing more than parliament to authorise article 50 to be invoked and changes nothing in terms of parliament demanding anything.

    My view is that despite what some say the vote was pretty clear...leave the EU. Doing so then basically rejoining under another guise would be quite clearly a significant sleight of hand.

    My personal opinion of soft or hard or total or partial or not is neither here nor there in making that judgement, it's just rather bleedin' obvious.

    But since you asked ;-) I'm relatively relaxed about the whole thing. Would have been happy to stay in but can see plenty reasons not to and as the vote was not to we should just crack on and get it done.

    The 'Norway' option is not a real option in my mind...it's far too similar to being in the EU and to be honest looks a poor choice compared to being just in or just out. I know why it's being proposed but largely it's being proposed by those that really just wanted to stay in the EU.

    Finally I'm pretty convinced the EU is stuffed anyway and the economic and financial stresses tearing it apart will surface in political upheaval and ultimately its demise. From the crushed Greeks to the skint Italians to the grumpy Dutch to the 44% unemployed youth in Spain to the Germans desperately trying to stop Deutsche Bank from bringing down the whole house of cards there is plenty of evidence to show all is not well.
    I don't believe for a second the EU is 'stuffed'. It is becoming ever more synchronised and a force for good in the world with well established human rights and a free market that is the biggest in the world.

    Of course it has its problems but they are overcome by finding common good solutions.

    It has served us very well for many years and it is the mostly little englanders ukip and the tories who are hell bent on removing us not for the common good but for their own racist xenophobic nasty little means.

    I predict a soft brexit and today paved the way for it by enabling the opposition to stand up and take on these nasty self serving extreme right wingers.

    Glory Glory
    Last edited by northstandhibby; 24-01-2017 at 09:34 PM.

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