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  1. #601
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Shes said theres going to be a vote at Westminster on the eventual Brexit deal. This gives me some comfort that MPs will vote against it if its damaging and we get some sort of reprieve. There was no guarantee she was going to do that.

    The rest of the speech was pure fantasy. 'we will not accept a punitive deal from the EU'. I doubt we'll have much of a choice.
    Will labour vote against? Will labour even vote?


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  3. #602
    @hibs.net private member Diclonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Will labour vote against? Will labour even vote?
    It'll be another Labstain job.

  4. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Shes said theres going to be a vote at Westminster on the eventual Brexit deal. This gives me some comfort that MPs will vote against it if its damaging and we get some sort of reprieve. There was no guarantee she was going to do that.
    Parliament won't vote against it. It will be presented as a fait accompli - there will be no option given, no time for them to do anything. It will be, "accept this or explain to your constituents why you caused us to exit EU with no agreement". The whole thing is a Tory stitch up.

  5. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Cool so he didn't say anything of the sort and you have just put forward your opinion of what he said might mean. I think we can safely say that it could therefore be interpreted completely differently by someone who thinks European style working practices and tax regimes of somewhere like France is not a model that you would wish on anybody..
    Go on, give us your interpretation...

  6. #605
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    Parliament won't vote against it. It will be presented as a fait accompli - there will be no option given, no time for them to do anything. It will be, "accept this or explain to your constituents why you caused us to exit EU with no agreement". The whole thing is a Tory stitch up.
    It seems clear the choice will be:

    Accept whatever deal they got to leave the EU

    or

    Leave the EU without a deal and fall back on WTO rules.

    It's a pretty monstrous situation.

  7. #606
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Will labour vote against? Will labour even vote?
    I suppose that depends on the nature of the deal. Or lack of one. If there's no deal and the WTO rules mean punitive tariffs, I would hope Labour would have the balls to say 'we are voting against this agreement (or nonagreement) on the basis that it's a bad deal'. The Brexiters can stamp their feet all they like. But that requires party unity of course

  8. #607
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    You know how far right the UK's political spectrum has slipped when the government start using this guffy's rhetoric.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7531516.html

  9. #608
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    David Davis today said,

    "David Davis has said Brexit will still go ahead even if MPs voted against an EU withdrawal deal.
    The Brexit Secretary said any vote would not change the fact the UK was leaving the bloc, as a result of last summer's referendum.
    Mr Davis also told MPs some unskilled migration was likely to continue after Brexit, adding Parliament would now have the power to set the UK's policy".

    Looks like it will be WTO rules then, and we're paying through the nose.


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  10. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Grieves View Post
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    Go on, give us your interpretation...
    I don't think it needs interpreted his direct quote was as follows:

    And most of us who had voted Remain would like the U.K. to remain a recognizably European-style economy with European-style taxation systems, European-style regulation systems etcetera. I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Seems pretty clear to me that he said nothing like what you stated.

    And anyway I'm relatively sanguine about moving away from some European norms of required...this portrayal that any change to economic and social thinking away from the EU view is somehow automatically a terrible thing is not one I subscribe to.

  11. #610
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    I don't think it needs interpreted his direct quote was as follows:

    And most of us who had voted Remain would like the U.K. to remain a recognizably European-style economy with European-style taxation systems, European-style regulation systems etcetera. I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Seems pretty clear to me that he said nothing like what you stated.

    And anyway I'm relatively sanguine about moving away from some European norms of required...this portrayal that any change to economic and social thinking away from the EU view is somehow automatically a terrible thing is not one I subscribe to.
    I take your point - absolutely.

    However, I have absolutely no trust that the Conservative right, who are receiving plaudits from the likes of Nigel Farage, will deliver that at all.

    They are the ones who will control the exit process - Labour have all but abrogated responsibility to counter it.

    What if they fail to deliver a system which is capable of being a European style model with the adaptations you mention?

  12. #611
    Coaching Staff Sylar's Avatar
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    I feel thoroughly flattened by today's speech and the 'detail' contained therein.

    But I can't bring myself to get excited by the prospect of IndyRef2 either - my concerns the last time around haven't been allayed, and there's no guarantee an independent Scotland will waltz back into Europe (Spain will NEVER vote for it). We're not the leeches many 'Better Together' campaigners painted us as, but we do take a sizeable amount more from central UK funding than other parts of the UK.

    As someone who works in HE, the loss of EU funding is a pretty disastrous looming consequence of Brexit (without accepting freedom of movement, you pay a hefty amount to access limited parts of EU funding), but losing out on RCUK funding would be unequivocally worse for Scottish Universities (HE funding post-Indy was one answer the SNP never gave me a solid level of comfort from - merely that it would be negotiated after the fact - the same uncertain rhetoric that the Conservatives now peddle about Europe).

    It would need to be a highly detailed accountancy-style breakdown that illustrates how an independent Scotland would operate with financial security, maintaining a similar standard of living before I'd change my mind for IndyRef2, no matter how much I utterly, utterly detest this Tory government. Emotionally, I'm in support of the idea, but pragmatically, I'd need to see evidence it could work.

    So much uncertainty, so little comfort.

  13. #612
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    I feel thoroughly flattened by today's speech and the 'detail' contained therein.

    But I can't bring myself to get excited by the prospect of IndyRef2 either - my concerns the last time around haven't been allayed, and there's no guarantee an independent Scotland will waltz back into Europe (Spain will NEVER vote for it). We're not the leeches many 'Better Together' campaigners painted us as, but we do take a sizeable amount more from central UK funding than other parts of the UK.

    As someone who works in HE, the loss of EU funding is a pretty disastrous looming consequence of Brexit (without accepting freedom of movement, you pay a hefty amount to access limited parts of EU funding), but losing out on RCUK funding would be unequivocally worse for Scottish Universities (HE funding post-Indy was one answer the SNP never gave me a solid level of comfort from - merely that it would be negotiated after the fact - the same uncertain rhetoric that the Conservatives now peddle about Europe).

    It would need to be a highly detailed accountancy-style breakdown that illustrates how an independent Scotland would operate with financial security, maintaining a similar standard of living before I'd change my mind for IndyRef2, no matter how much I utterly, utterly detest this Tory government. Emotionally, I'm in support of the idea, but pragmatically, I'd need to see evidence it could work.

    So much uncertainty, so little comfort.
    Today was thoroughly depressing. As a Yes voter, I accept that there would have been a lot of work to do had we won. But I feel it would have been fighting in the right direction. It certainly wouldn't have been plain sailing but as it has turned out, neither is staying in the U.K.

    A hopeless opposition at WM, a rampant right wing version of the Tories in power - unassailable in many respects and not just out of the EU, but the single market and indeed, the ECHR it would appear is also the plan. I've little time for the LibDems but Farron is right when he called it a theft of democracy.

    I suppose it's now coming down to what kind of country you wish to live in. What sort of place do you want to leave behind for the next generation. None of these things will assure your standard of living or the price of goods in the shops etc but it will involve a choice, hard work and participation.

    We live in strange times, but I think to expect a detailed blueprint of what you'll get out of it is asking way more than any proposition will be able to give you.

    When you vote, it's about endorsing a direction and a process not about guaranteeing a particular outcome.

    I've got all those things to lose like you do but ultimately, any vote or decision you take is uncertain and uncomfortable.
    Last edited by steakbake; 17-01-2017 at 06:22 PM.

  14. #613
    Typical arrogant Tory speech. Do they actually think that the rest of Europe will bow to their demands? Don't know what they are leading us into but they will find out that Britain is not as significant in Europe as they think it is.

  15. #614
    Britain is very significant in Europe and if the EU wants to play tough they have to get 27 countries to agree to it. When was the last time the EU came up with a quick solution to anything? Having said this I am still trying to work out what the hell I want as I voted to leave the EU but still want independence for Scotland. Does this mean I'll have to start my own party?

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    I understand why people are deflated, but only if they are still actively hoping against hope that somehow this process isnt happening. I think everyone needs to accept that it is.

    And of course some people want it to fail, for their own reasons.

    I feel quite heartened by it, as someone who voted remain. She has set out a clearish course, she has set out some negotiation points (thats all anything is at the moment) and she has offered some hopefully reassuring words to european partner countries.

    Our FM is startinh to look a little pathetic, as the only card she has she doesnt want to play. I think she has overplayed her hand from the outset on this.

    Brexit is happening, and so it is in all of our interests to make it work. Including most european countries (bit obviously not the eu institutions). The question will be how much economic pain will countries accept to protect the european institutions?

  17. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoneyburn hibs View Post
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    Typical arrogant Tory speech. Do they actually think that the rest of Europe will bow to their demands? Don't know what they are leading us into but they will find out that Britain is not as significant in Europe as they think it is.
    So would you begin a negotiation offering to give everything away?

    Its all posturing, some of which will obviously be conceded at the negotiations.

  18. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    Today was thoroughly depressing. As a Yes voter, I accept that there would have been a lot of work to do had we won. But I feel it would have been fighting in the right direction. It certainly wouldn't have been plain sailing but as it has turned out, neither is staying in the U.K.

    A hopeless opposition at WM, a rampant right wing version of the Tories in power - unassailable in many respects and not just out of the EU, but the single market and indeed, the ECHR it would appear is also the plan. I've little time for the LibDems but Farron is right when he called it a theft of democracy.

    I suppose it's now coming down to what kind of country you wish to live in. What sort of place do you want to leave behind for the next generation. None of these things will assure your standard of living or the price of goods in the shops etc but it will involve a choice, hard work and participation.

    We live in strange times, but I think to expect a detailed blueprint of what you'll get out of it is asking way more than any proposition will be able to give you.

    When you vote, it's about endorsing a direction and a process not about guaranteeing a particular outcome.

    I've got all those things to lose like you do but ultimately, any vote or decision you take is uncertain and uncomfortable.
    The latter half of your post is really good. I think to vote indy / brexit you were voting for a principle, as you say.

  19. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I understand why people are deflated, but only if they are still actively hoping against hope that somehow this process isnt happening. I think everyone needs to accept that it is.

    And of course some people want it to fail, for their own reasons.

    I feel quite heartened by it, as someone who voted remain. She has set out a clearish course, she has set out some negotiation points (thats all anything is at the moment) and she has offered some hopefully reassuring words to european partner countries.

    Our FM is startinh to look a little pathetic, as the only card she has she doesnt want to play. I think she has overplayed her hand from the outset on this.

    Brexit is happening, and so it is in all of our interests to make it work. Including most european countries (bit obviously not the eu institutions). The question will be how much economic pain will countries accept to protect the european institutions?
    I admire your optimism/delusion* but I can't say I remotely share it. On the highlighted bit, I think that's rubbish. If you ignore the spun headlines and read what NS has actually been saying it's clear and consistent. The Scot Gov has 3 options in descending order of priority, the first 2 of which would see them shelving Indyref2 for the foreseeable.

    1. UK in EEA - now ruled out
    2. rUK out, Scotland in EEA - this requires the UK gov to advance this as a negotiating position and even if they did so, would require big effort and goodwill on all sides. While not technically ruled out yet, it looks very unlikely that May will give this any shrift but while the ball is in the UK gov court this remains Scot gov's priority. When it's ruled out we move to:
    3. Indyref2

    I think everybody pretty much knows we're at 3, but NS is giving TM a chance to compromise and head it off at the pass if she wants.


    * delete to taste.

  20. #619
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    After Mrs May laid out her 12 commandments (No white paper) yesterday, the banks seem to be getting their ducks in order. I think she will try and get separate deals for sectors of the country, Banks, Automotive, etc, and the fishermen, and Farmers will be thrown under the bus to compensate.

    https://twitter.com/Brexit/status/821660014150565889

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017...?utm_hp_ref=uk

    With Boris in the Foreign office, and making speeches in India, what could possibly go wrong. Insulting the French President is the way to keep friends and influence.

    Boris Johnson has accused the EU of considering Nazi-style “punishment beatings” on Britain in revenge for Brexit.
    The Foreign Secretary appeared to liken French president Francois Hollande to a Second World War German general, in the fallout from Theresa May’s plan for leaving the EU.

    Speaking in India, Mr Johnson said: “If Mr Hollande wants to administer punishment beatings to anybody who seeks to escape [the EU], in the manner of some world war two movie, I don’t think that is the way forward, and it’s not in the interests of our friends and partners.

    The Foreign Secretary also appeared to point to a possible benefit of falling back on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules – despite the fears of most of British business.
    Pointing out that Britain is an enormous market for German cars, Mr Johnson said: “These things cut both ways.
    “You can put a ten per cent tariff on 820,000 cars, Mercs. That’s a lot of money for the Exchequer.
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 18-01-2017 at 11:04 AM.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  21. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    After Mrs May laid out her 12 commandments (No white paper) yesterday, the banks seem to be getting their ducks in order. I think she will try and get separate deals for sectors of the country, Banks, Automotive, etc, and the fishermen, and Farmers will be thrown under the bus to compensate.

    https://twitter.com/Brexit/status/821660014150565889

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017...?utm_hp_ref=uk

    With Boris in the Foreign office, and making speeches in India, what could possibly go wrong. Insulting the French President is the way to keep friends and influence.

    Boris Johnson has accused the EU of considering Nazi-style “punishment beatings” on Britain in revenge for Brexit.
    The Foreign Secretary appeared to liken French president Francois Hollande to a Second World War German general, in the fallout from Theresa May’s plan for leaving the EU.

    Speaking in India, Mr Johnson said: “If Mr Hollande wants to administer punishment beatings to anybody who seeks to escape [the EU], in the manner of some world war two movie, I don’t think that is the way forward, and it’s not in the interests of our friends and partners.

    The Foreign Secretary also appeared to point to a possible benefit of falling back on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules – despite the fears of most of British business.
    Pointing out that Britain is an enormous market for German cars, Mr Johnson said: “These things cut both ways.
    “You can put a ten per cent tariff on 820,000 cars, Mercs. That’s a lot of money for the Exchequer.
    Thousands of highly paid financial sector jobs dependent on the EU market looking for a home.

    Presumably we will dither about and miss this opportunity (just like North Sea oil ), but a sizeable opportunity is there. Scotland could yet rescue something from this ****** big mess.

  22. #621
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    After Mrs May laid out her 12 commandments (No white paper) yesterday, the banks seem to be getting their ducks in order. I think she will try and get separate deals for sectors of the country, Banks, Automotive, etc, and the fishermen, and Farmers will be thrown under the bus to compensate.

    https://twitter.com/Brexit/status/821660014150565889

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2017...?utm_hp_ref=uk

    With Boris in the Foreign office, and making speeches in India, what could possibly go wrong. Insulting the French President is the way to keep friends and influence.

    Boris Johnson has accused the EU of considering Nazi-style “punishment beatings” on Britain in revenge for Brexit.
    The Foreign Secretary appeared to liken French president Francois Hollande to a Second World War German general, in the fallout from Theresa May’s plan for leaving the EU.

    Speaking in India, Mr Johnson said: “If Mr Hollande wants to administer punishment beatings to anybody who seeks to escape [the EU], in the manner of some world war two movie, I don’t think that is the way forward, and it’s not in the interests of our friends and partners.

    The Foreign Secretary also appeared to point to a possible benefit of falling back on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules – despite the fears of most of British business.
    Pointing out that Britain is an enormous market for German cars, Mr Johnson said: “These things cut both ways.
    “You can put a ten per cent tariff on 820,000 cars, Mercs. That’s a lot of money for the Exchequer.
    The same fishermen who currently get HUGE benefit from the EU but who largely voted to leave because they think they can prevent other countries from fishing UK waters!!
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  23. #622
    @hibs.net private member AndyM_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    I admire your optimism/delusion* but I can't say I remotely share it. On the highlighted bit, I think that's rubbish. If you ignore the spun headlines and read what NS has actually been saying it's clear and consistent. The Scot Gov has 3 options in descending order of priority, the first 2 of which would see them shelving Indyref2 for the foreseeable.

    1. UK in EEA - now ruled out
    2. rUK out, Scotland in EEA - this requires the UK gov to advance this as a negotiating position and even if they did so, would require big effort and goodwill on all sides. While not technically ruled out yet, it looks very unlikely that May will give this any shrift but while the ball is in the UK gov court this remains Scot gov's priority. When it's ruled out we move to:
    3. Indyref2

    I think everybody pretty much knows we're at 3, but NS is giving TM a chance to compromise and head it off at the pass if she wants.


    * delete to taste.
    She's ruled out a referendum in 2017 which may have been a miscalculation but nothing prevents her going as early as possible next year.
    I'd go in the dead of winter quite deliberately, January 25, 2018 anyone?

  24. #623
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyM_1875 View Post
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    She's ruled out a referendum in 2017 which may have been a miscalculation but nothing prevents her going as early as possible next year.
    I'd go in the dead of winter quite deliberately, January 25, 2018 anyone?
    Sleekit
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  25. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    I admire your optimism/delusion* but I can't say I remotely share it. On the highlighted bit, I think that's rubbish. If you ignore the spun headlines and read what NS has actually been saying it's clear and consistent. The Scot Gov has 3 options in descending order of priority, the first 2 of which would see them shelving Indyref2 for the foreseeable.

    1. UK in EEA - now ruled out
    2. rUK out, Scotland in EEA - this requires the UK gov to advance this as a negotiating position and even if they did so, would require big effort and goodwill on all sides. While not technically ruled out yet, it looks very unlikely that May will give this any shrift but while the ball is in the UK gov court this remains Scot gov's priority. When it's ruled out we move to:
    3. Indyref2

    I think everybody pretty much knows we're at 3, but NS is giving TM a chance to compromise and head it off at the pass if she wants.


    * delete to taste.

    Fait enough mate, we will all have different takes on it. I think her language has become notablu less strident around a ref, because i dont think she wants one. The UK govt, by accident or design, are calling her bluff.

    All just opinions though.

  26. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Fait enough mate, we will all have different takes on it. I think her language has become notablu less strident around a ref, because i dont think she wants one. The UK govt, by accident or design, are calling her bluff.

    All just opinions though.
    Strident will not win over soft No voters. Indyref2 has to be framed as the last resort.

    tbh, I think we are well down the UK gov's priorities.

    As my favourite Unionist commentator, Alex Massie says ...

    And then there was this statement of eye-popping twaddle: ‘It’s why we will put the preservation of our precious Union at the heart of everything we do.’ No you won’t and what’s more, Prime Minister, you know you won’t. English Tories have made their feelings plain: the EU is a bigger deal to them than the Union. That too is their choice and one which, once made, we will all have to live with.

    It doesn’t necessarily mean independence and the break-up of Britain is inevitable. Indeed, as we’ve discussed before, a hard Brexit makes independence a still harder business even if it might also now be a more psychologically attractive proposition. But it does mean that the people who saved the United Kingdom just two years ago are now some of the loneliest voters in Britain

  27. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyM_1875 View Post
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    She's ruled out a referendum in 2017 which may have been a miscalculation but nothing prevents her going as early as possible next year.
    I'd go in the dead of winter quite deliberately, January 25, 2018 anyone?


    I've never thought about it that way before. Politics is a dirty business right enough.

    Who ever would have thought that Scotland could be delivered her Independence via our weather? A chill in the air, a few slippy pavements, just enough to keep a few more "No" voters at home, eh?

    I wonder how much the SNP have spent on great political masterminds to forward their case for Independence when this effective little number has been there waiting all along?

  28. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I've never thought about it that way before. Politics is a dirty business right enough.

    Who ever would have thought that Scotland could be delivered her Independence via our weather? A chill in the air, a few slippy pavements, just enough to keep a few more "No" voters at home, eh?

    I wonder how much the SNP have spent on great political masterminds to forward their case for Independence when this effective little number has been there waiting all along?
    I thought it had more to do with the fact that the 25th is Burns night.

  29. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    The same fishermen who currently get HUGE benefit from the EU but who largely voted to leave because they think they can prevent other countries from fishing UK waters!!
    The same guys that Ted Heath took to the cleaners in 1973.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  30. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Strident will not win over soft No voters. Indyref2 has to be framed as the last resort.

    tbh, I think we are well down the UK gov's priorities.

    As my favourite Unionist commentator, Alex Massie says ...
    Im a big fan of alex massie too.

    Agree about being strident, but i think they also know that arguing that leaving one union is so bad and disruptive, we should also leave another, more important union is probably not either. Hence her backing away from it.

  31. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Thousands of highly paid financial sector jobs dependent on the EU market looking for a home.

    Presumably we will dither about and miss this opportunity (just like North Sea oil ), but a sizeable opportunity is there. Scotland could yet rescue something from this ****** big mess.

    You know our sense of timing, we always wait too long...

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