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  1. #2641
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    I agree with your last point but I'm not sure it's an upside. The UK might get richer but that wealth would be concentrated in few hands. They want to ape the US: a great place - if you've got money.
    That would be my fear also.


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  3. #2642
    Spare a thought for poor old Theresa though, bet this is fair keeping her awake at night.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/david-...tion-1-4817089

  4. #2643
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Spare a thought for poor old Theresa though, bet this is fair keeping her awake at night.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/david-...tion-1-4817089
    Ha ha, the brexit dividend at last 😁

  5. #2644
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    With respect, have you been asleep for the last two and a bit years? There's pretty much nothing in life which is as simple as you suggest, certainly not constitutional, sovereignty and trade links between the UK and the EU.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "just doesn't work". Doesn't work for you? Or England, or the Brexiters, or the car manufacturers, or the xenophobic residents of the Home Counties?
    Oh, I know how complicated it all is. That's why I am a staunch remainer - the idea of leaving the EU is madness.

    But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.

    I'm uncomfortable with what we have currently - a PM who was in favour of remain scuttling about trying to get a compromised result that suits nobody. I cannot imagine a situation where any fudge is preferable to anyone than actually remaining within the EU. My point of view is simply that I can see more chance of success (whilst still minimal) occurring with a hard or no deal Brexit, taking the difficulties that we all know go with that but attempting to exploit the advantages that go with it (that so many were keen to point out to us existed, advantages that convinced many people to vote a particular way). I'd like that to be delivered by people who actually thought it was achievable in the first place, not someone who never believed in it, still doesn't and is now being undermined by those who are happy to skulk in the background but not put their political reputations where their mouths are.

    If they came forward, those people could then be held accountable when it inevitably goes belly up. Who is to blame when the fudge goes belly up? You'll have all the Brexiteers howling that the reason it went belly up was because Brexit was undermined, not because it was lunacy in the first place.

    The fudge doesn't work for me, or the car manufacturers or the xenophobic residents of the Home Counties, the Brexiteers, the Northern Irish, the Southern Irish, the EU.........

  6. #2645
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Oh, I know how complicated it all is. That's why I am a staunch remainer - the idea of leaving the EU is madness.

    But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.

    I'm uncomfortable with what we have currently - a PM who was in favour of remain scuttling about trying to get a compromised result that suits nobody. I cannot imagine a situation where any fudge is preferable to anyone than actually remaining within the EU. My point of view is simply that I can see more chance of success (whilst still minimal) occurring with a hard or no deal Brexit, taking the difficulties that we all know go with that but attempting to exploit the advantages that go with it (that so many were keen to point out to us existed, advantages that convinced many people to vote a particular way). I'd like that to be delivered by people who actually thought it was achievable in the first place, not someone who never believed in it, still doesn't and is now being undermined by those who are happy to skulk in the background but not put their political reputations where their mouths are.

    If they came forward, those people could then be held accountable when it inevitably goes belly up. Who is to blame when the fudge goes belly up? You'll have all the Brexiteers howling that the reason it went belly up was because Brexit was undermined, not because it was lunacy in the first place.

    The fudge doesn't work for me, or the car manufacturers or the xenophobic residents of the Home Counties, the Brexiteers, the Northern Irish, the Southern Irish, the EU.........
    I'll take you up on this point

    Democracy isn't static, it's fluid. If, for example, we vote in a Government that promises us the world and, two years later, we find out that they won't or can't deliver... we have the right to vote them out again.

    2 years on, we now have a clearer idea of what Brexit actually means. (it was always my view that, unlike the Scottish referendum where we had a long and wide-ranging debate that resulted in people knowing what they were voting for, the EU one was far too short and left people open to all sorts of misunderstanding). If we know that now, and that the Government can't deliver what was promised, we have a moral right to express our voice again.

  7. #2646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Oh, I know how complicated it all is. That's why I am a staunch remainer - the idea of leaving the EU is madness.

    But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.

    I'm uncomfortable with what we have currently - a PM who was in favour of remain scuttling about trying to get a compromised result that suits nobody. I cannot imagine a situation where any fudge is preferable to anyone than actually remaining within the EU. My point of view is simply that I can see more chance of success (whilst still minimal) occurring with a hard or no deal Brexit, taking the difficulties that we all know go with that but attempting to exploit the advantages that go with it (that so many were keen to point out to us existed, advantages that convinced many people to vote a particular way). I'd like that to be delivered by people who actually thought it was achievable in the first place, not someone who never believed in it, still doesn't and is now being undermined by those who are happy to skulk in the background but not put their political reputations where their mouths are.

    If they came forward, those people could then be held accountable when it inevitably goes belly up. Who is to blame when the fudge goes belly up? You'll have all the Brexiteers howling that the reason it went belly up was because Brexit was undermined, not because it was lunacy in the first place.

    The fudge doesn't work for me, or the car manufacturers or the xenophobic residents of the Home Counties, the Brexiteers, the Northern Irish, the Southern Irish, the EU.........
    This is mostly spot on, especially with regard to the Brexiters lack of accountability for the trouble they've caused. But I disagree with your comment here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.

    This was an advisory referendum, strewn with lies and probable external involvement, in a country which operates a representative democracy - our democracy is delivered through our Parliamentary representatives. So i feel no compunction whatsoever in arguing that the referendum does not need to be respected.

  8. #2647
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    2 years on, we now have a clearer idea of what Brexit actually means. (it was always my view that, unlike the Scottish referendum where we had a long and wide-ranging debate that resulted in people knowing what they were voting for, the EU one was far too short and left people open to all sorts of misunderstanding). If we know that now, and that the Government can't deliver what was promised, we have a moral right to express our voice again.
    Indeed.

  9. #2648
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    They don't actually have gold mines in Switzerland ... and I *know* you're not going down the tired Nazi gold trope! But staying neutral, incredible political stability, harmonious employment relations and a very high level of decentralisation have all undoubtedly helped. And obviously you're right about Norwegian oil.

    Still, when push comes to shove, both of these very rich countries see the advantages in staying within a fudgetastic embrace of Europe's single market. The UK would be (currently is) stark staring bonkers not to be doing similar.
    By "gold" I was just really referring to the fact that they have a bit of wealth behind them (wherever it came from and whatever it is).

    I don't think the fact that these 2 countries are not often associated with poverty experienced elsewhere in Europe and the wider world is down to the constitutional arrangements that these countries have with the EU (much as it seems unpopular these days to suggest that there is more to politics than deciding who your country is and isn't in the various forms of union that exist with).

  10. #2649
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    I'll take you up on this point

    Democracy isn't static, it's fluid. If, for example, we vote in a Government that promises us the world and, two years later, we find out that they won't or can't deliver... we have the right to vote them out again.

    2 years on, we now have a clearer idea of what Brexit actually means. (it was always my view that, unlike the Scottish referendum where we had a long and wide-ranging debate that resulted in people knowing what they were voting for, the EU one was far too short and left people open to all sorts of misunderstanding). If we know that now, and that the Government can't deliver what was promised, we have a moral right to express our voice again.
    I would tend to agree with this.

    But what if the result was the same?

    In spite of all that we know about the disaster that Brexit is and is going to be, there will still be huge support for it down South. How many people, even when faced with incontrovertible evidence and unarguable logic will actually change their mind and vote differently? (or do you have more faith in the human race than I do?)

    Where do we go then?

  11. #2650
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I would tend to agree with this.

    But what if the result was the same?

    In spite of all that we know about the disaster that Brexit is and is going to be, there will still be huge support for it down South. How many people, even when faced with incontrovertible evidence and unarguable logic will actually change their mind and vote differently? (or do you have more faith in the human race than I do?)

    Where do we go then?
    If that's the case, that's democracy.



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  12. #2651
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    I'll take you up on this point

    Democracy isn't static, it's fluid. If, for example, we vote in a Government that promises us the world and, two years later, we find out that they won't or can't deliver... we have the right to vote them out again.

    2 years on, we now have a clearer idea of what Brexit actually means. (it was always my view that, unlike the Scottish referendum where we had a long and wide-ranging debate that resulted in people knowing what they were voting for, the EU one was far too short and left people open to all sorts of misunderstanding). If we know that now, and that the Government can't deliver what was promised, we have a moral right to express our voice again.
    The possible Brexit options are so different that I don't really see how they can be considered to all stem from the same mandate anyway. A Norway+CU deal is clearly much closer to remain than no deal leave. Did a significant proportion of Brexit voters vote for Norway+CU? Probably not but the margin was wafer thin. It's hardly stretching credulity to say there was >50% for Remain+Norway+CU.

    How many voted for no deal or would have voted for no deal if the consequences were set out? The dubiety of claiming "the will of the people" while taking us out on a no deal without a vote specfically on that premise is off the charts imo.

  13. #2652
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    This is mostly spot on, especially with regard to the Brexiters lack of accountability for the trouble they've caused. But I disagree with your comment here:


    This was an advisory referendum, strewn with lies and probable external involvement, in a country which operates a representative democracy - our democracy is delivered through our Parliamentary representatives. So i feel no compunction whatsoever in arguing that the referendum does not need to be respected.
    Funnily enough, I've had many, many arguments with Brexiteers where I hold your viewpoint and to be honest it is one that I agree with.

    So I am not going to argue with it.

    What I should probably say is that we should at least respect and acknowledge that a huge number of people voted in a particular way, and will have had their reasons for doing so. When you go about trying to have a second referendum you should have rock solid reasons for doing so (which I think we have and you outlined) but you also have to be prepared to face the wrath of a large number of people who will disagree with what you are trying to do, and be ready for any potential backlash.

    Say Scotland had voted Yes in 2014, then we had a second referendum to overturn it. It wouldn't have gone down very well, would it?

  14. #2653
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    If that's the case, that's democracy.



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    Third vote, no?

  15. #2654
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    But we are where we are, a vote was taken and the results of the vote must be respected.
    The voices of over 67% of the UK's electorate should be respected

  16. #2655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    But what if the result was the same?

    In spite of all that we know about the disaster that Brexit is and is going to be, there will still be huge support for it down South. How many people, even when faced with incontrovertible evidence and unarguable logic will actually change their mind and vote differently? (or do you have more faith in the human race than I do?)

    Where do we go then?
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    If that's the case, that's democracy.
    Counter argument - the Government is elected to lead the country. We're not required to make constitutional decisions based on popular opinion. It's time the Government showed some leadership.

  17. #2656
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The possible Brexit options are so different that I don't really see how they can be considered to all stem from the same mandate anyway. A Norway+CU deal is clearly much closer to remain than no deal leave. Did a significant proportion of Brexit voters vote for Norway+CU? Probably not but the margin was wafer thin. It's hardly stretching credulity to say there was >50% for Remain+Norway+CU.

    How many voted for no deal or would have voted for no deal if the consequences were set out? The dubiety of claiming "the will of the people" while taking us out on a no deal without a vote specfically on that premise is off the charts imo.
    I doubt many of the leave voters actually thought along those lines, it was more to do with stopping migration and funding the NHS
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  18. #2657
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    If that's the case, that's democracy.



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    You can stretch a thin case for saying the Tories have a GE mandate from last year to pursue a hard brexit *with* a deal. But even then it promised a "deep and special partnership", near frictionless trade etc.

    If they pursue no deal without a 2nd referendum then I think that's about as anti-democratic as it gets. If they pursue no deal and get it endorsed in a referendum then fair enough, the UK deserves all that's coming.

  19. #2658
    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    Counter argument - the Government is elected to lead the country. We're not required to make constitutional decisions based on popular opinion. It's time the Government showed some leadership.
    Yeah, there is the argument that the people are not competent to make this sort of decision. I'm not sure the current shenanigans is the best advert for our elected representatives being any better though.

  20. #2659
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    I'm not sure the current shenanigans is the best advert for our elected representatives being any better though.
    No argument there.
    Last edited by grunt; Yesterday at 11:59 AM.

  21. #2660
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    By "gold" I was just really referring to the fact that they have a bit of wealth behind them (wherever it came from and whatever it is).

    I don't think the fact that these 2 countries are not often associated with poverty experienced elsewhere in Europe and the wider world is down to the constitutional arrangements that these countries have with the EU (much as it seems unpopular these days to suggest that there is more to politics than deciding who your country is and isn't in the various forms of union that exist with).
    No neither do I. Actually in both cases their political class would prefer (and have tried) to move towards full EU membership but both accept the fudge as a 2nd best option. So I'm refuting your "doesn't work for anyone" argument. It might not be the best but it's better than nothing.

  22. #2661
    Coaching Staff heretoday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Yeah, there is the argument that the people are not competent to make this sort of decision. I'm not sure the current shenanigans is the best advert for our elected representatives being any better though.
    So who's going to make the decision?

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