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  1. #1
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    Brexit - what will happen next

    This was posted on my FB wall.

    The astute among you will have noticed that I declined to become involved in most of the hand wringing and wailing yesterday. I'm not going to start today, but I did realise yesterday that there is a need to clear the air.

    I don't have many friends who voted Leave. The ones who did had slightly elevated reasons for their vote - they were genuinely concerned about democratic concepts. My posts were public, however, so like most people who publicly stated we should Remain, throughout the campaign I saw a litany of threats, abuse and claims that I was either some sort of elitist schill planting lies and deception or just speaking only for myself and should have my swimming pool privilege curtailed.

    The campaign is now concluded and Leave has won. I accept the result, and have no intention of arguing that it was unfair, should be run again, or that despite the vote we should do anything else other than Leave.

    Can I therefore ask those of you that made those accusations during this campaign to read the following in the frank and honest way it is written. I engaged with two posts yesterday, and despite the end of the campaign the accusations and abuse continue. So please let's put this to bed and move on:

    1) The 350 million actually is a lie. It really doesn't exist. All the people who told you that, me included, weren't lying to you, it really isn't there. You can't therefore spend it, no matter how many 38 degrees petitions you sign. The reason Brexit leaders have suddenly gone quiet on it is because they were lying.

    2) Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is a real thing, and to leave the EU we are actually going to have to invoke it. It actually is a very punitive piece of law meant to discourage countries from leaving. We cannot renegotiate it. The reason Cameron wouldn't invoke it yesterday, and now Johnson, Redwood and Hannan are saying we need time today is because it's absolutely terrible for the British economy. When Gove, Farage and Johnson told you repeatedly that we would get an even better deal out of the EU they were lying. We don't get to negotiate and the EU is going to offer us something much worse and we will have to accept it. We already had the best deal available. Honestly.

    3) We do honestly need those immigrants. We need their work and their tax. Hannan last night was claiming this referendum was never about immigration. Johnson yesterday was saying that we couldn't really have a cap on immigration. Large employers were on the phone to their MPs yesterday telling them that no immigration caps are going to be acceptable. Because, and I really respectfully understand that some of you really won't like this, our immigration 'challenge' isn't going to be solved by leaving the EU. On balance, the vote itself will have no impact at all. Honestly. Judging by social media, though, many EU citizens might leave because they are worried by the campaign and the atmosphere. They are also worried that the money they are earning just got effectively cut by 11%. If you see a fall in the immigration numbers, that will be the reason; that we're seen as a less hospitable nation that isn't a great place to earn money. You won't see huge cuts to immigration because of your vote. Honestly.

    4) those warnings you heard about the economy that were labelled 'Project Fear'. Inflation will rise - you will see this at the garage this week. The pound has lost 11% of its value. If you have a private pension plan it is worth less today - as much as 27% less. Billions of pounds have already been lost out of the U.K. Economy. More will go in the next seven years before we even get close to where we already were. We might, on balance, avoid a full blown recession. This will be achieved by gifting banks in excess of 250 billion we won't ever get back. People are going to lose their jobs. Areas of the country like Cornwall, the North East, East Anglia that relied on EU subsidies are in very deep trouble. Some of it got hyped up - Osborne's fake budget was stupid, it's why I didn't post it, but your taxes will have to rise to pay for all the fall out. We will have to borrow more money or shut more services. Economically, things will be much worse in the short term and slightly worse in the long term. And when you see a bounce in the value of sterling and the stock market next week and it's hailed as the world realising Britain is great; that's not true either. We are holding a garage sale of our assets and just announced a two for one offer. Economists and experts were right. Michael Gove was wrong.

    I know you genuinely believed I and others were lying or seeking to serve our own interests, but I honestly wasn't.

    I'm not a genius or a psychic. I read a lot and try and get information from good sources. That doesn't make me better than you or cleverer than you, and offering you my opinion after I've done that isn't meant to be patronising. I completely understand that sometimes it reads like it is, because I get frustrated when things I know to be correct are answered by comments like "never heard of article 50, this vote isn't about that'.

    I honestly hope you can make this work. I genuinely find the back pedalling from Brexit deeply distasteful and dishonest; people voted to Leave and the U.K. should leave. But let's never have another vote held in an atmosphere like this ever again.

    There, I've said everything I have to say about it.

    Now, about those music venues.......


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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    This was posted on my FB wall.

    The astute among you will have noticed that I declined to become involved in most of the hand wringing and wailing yesterday. I'm not going to start today, but I did realise yesterday that there is a need to clear the air.

    I don't have many friends who voted Leave. The ones who did had slightly elevated reasons for their vote - they were genuinely concerned about democratic concepts. My posts were public, however, so like most people who publicly stated we should Remain, throughout the campaign I saw a litany of threats, abuse and claims that I was either some sort of elitist schill planting lies and deception or just speaking only for myself and should have my swimming pool privilege curtailed.

    The campaign is now concluded and Leave has won. I accept the result, and have no intention of arguing that it was unfair, should be run again, or that despite the vote we should do anything else other than Leave.

    Can I therefore ask those of you that made those accusations during this campaign to read the following in the frank and honest way it is written. I engaged with two posts yesterday, and despite the end of the campaign the accusations and abuse continue. So please let's put this to bed and move on:

    1) The 350 million actually is a lie. It really doesn't exist. All the people who told you that, me included, weren't lying to you, it really isn't there. You can't therefore spend it, no matter how many 38 degrees petitions you sign. The reason Brexit leaders have suddenly gone quiet on it is because they were lying.

    2) Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is a real thing, and to leave the EU we are actually going to have to invoke it. It actually is a very punitive piece of law meant to discourage countries from leaving. We cannot renegotiate it. The reason Cameron wouldn't invoke it yesterday, and now Johnson, Redwood and Hannan are saying we need time today is because it's absolutely terrible for the British economy. When Gove, Farage and Johnson told you repeatedly that we would get an even better deal out of the EU they were lying. We don't get to negotiate and the EU is going to offer us something much worse and we will have to accept it. We already had the best deal available. Honestly.

    3) We do honestly need those immigrants. We need their work and their tax. Hannan last night was claiming this referendum was never about immigration. Johnson yesterday was saying that we couldn't really have a cap on immigration. Large employers were on the phone to their MPs yesterday telling them that no immigration caps are going to be acceptable. Because, and I really respectfully understand that some of you really won't like this, our immigration 'challenge' isn't going to be solved by leaving the EU. On balance, the vote itself will have no impact at all. Honestly. Judging by social media, though, many EU citizens might leave because they are worried by the campaign and the atmosphere. They are also worried that the money they are earning just got effectively cut by 11%. If you see a fall in the immigration numbers, that will be the reason; that we're seen as a less hospitable nation that isn't a great place to earn money. You won't see huge cuts to immigration because of your vote. Honestly.

    4) those warnings you heard about the economy that were labelled 'Project Fear'. Inflation will rise - you will see this at the garage this week. The pound has lost 11% of its value. If you have a private pension plan it is worth less today - as much as 27% less. Billions of pounds have already been lost out of the U.K. Economy. More will go in the next seven years before we even get close to where we already were. We might, on balance, avoid a full blown recession. This will be achieved by gifting banks in excess of 250 billion we won't ever get back. People are going to lose their jobs. Areas of the country like Cornwall, the North East, East Anglia that relied on EU subsidies are in very deep trouble. Some of it got hyped up - Osborne's fake budget was stupid, it's why I didn't post it, but your taxes will have to rise to pay for all the fall out. We will have to borrow more money or shut more services. Economically, things will be much worse in the short term and slightly worse in the long term. And when you see a bounce in the value of sterling and the stock market next week and it's hailed as the world realising Britain is great; that's not true either. We are holding a garage sale of our assets and just announced a two for one offer. Economists and experts were right. Michael Gove was wrong.

    I know you genuinely believed I and others were lying or seeking to serve our own interests, but I honestly wasn't.

    I'm not a genius or a psychic. I read a lot and try and get information from good sources. That doesn't make me better than you or cleverer than you, and offering you my opinion after I've done that isn't meant to be patronising. I completely understand that sometimes it reads like it is, because I get frustrated when things I know to be correct are answered by comments like "never heard of article 50, this vote isn't about that'.

    I honestly hope you can make this work. I genuinely find the back pedalling from Brexit deeply distasteful and dishonest; people voted to Leave and the U.K. should leave. But let's never have another vote held in an atmosphere like this ever again.

    There, I've said everything I have to say about it.

    Now, about those music venues.......

    I think that this is a brilliant post. Would have expected a reply or two by now to the points you are raising.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavinho View Post
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    I think that this is a brilliant post. Would have expected a reply or two by now to the points you are raising.
    I thought i heard on the news tonight the stock market has recovered its value? Might have misheard

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I thought i heard on the news tonight the stock market has recovered its value? Might have misheard
    Do you honestly think that the stock market revolves around the UK economy?

    If the stock market is doing well, but the pound remains weak. Then Brussels will have even less motive to negotiate a single market deal with the UK Government.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    Do you honestly think that the stock market revolves around the UK economy?

    If the stock market is doing well, but the pound remains weak. Then Brussels will have even less motive to negotiate a single market deal with the UK Government.
    Just throwing it in there - i dont know.

  7. #6
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    Knock down prices makes a busy market...

  8. #7
    On another note. The post that the OP quoted is longer than one paragraph. The Be-leavers struggle with anything longer than a sentence. That's why cheap empty slogans were enough to sway them.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    On another note. The post that the OP quoted is longer than one paragraph. The Be-leavers struggle with anything longer than a sentence. That's why cheap empty slogans were enough to sway them.
    Oh man your trolling is getting worse...which is an impressive feat.

    It's interesting that you are not against a Scottish currency knowing that such a move could result in extreme volatility and a huge transition period, possibly up to 15 years before the full benefits could be realised (if at all as it would be a rocky road) as well as wider Scottish independence which would involve Scotland undoing almost 300 years of political and monetary union with our biggest trading partner and the only country we have a land border with. Yet dismiss any claims that the UK disentangling itself from the EU and developing its own trade and immigration policies and everything else over time with the wider world is some sort of mentalism that is doomed to fail.

    Seems to me that both Leave and Yes promote some flavour of Independence but your viewpoint appears to be that one is the best idea ever and the other sheer folly. Yet both require potential short to medium pain and a huge amount of negotiation and realignment of fiscal policies, monetary policies, people and economies.

    Such a stance is some what puzzling..especially when you consider that the EU has a known ambition for ever more political union, so a mandate to continue to centralise power yet Westminster has been steadily devolving power. You would think someone that believes so strongly in 'Independence' would see the EU as the biggest threat to self determination not Westminster.

    If you can prevent yourself from posting more trolling it would be interesting (mildly at least ;-)) to understand why that is the case.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Oh man your trolling is getting worse...which is an impressive feat.

    It's interesting that you are not against a Scottish currency knowing that such a move could result in extreme volatility and a huge transition period, possibly up to 15 years before the full benefits could be realised (if at all as it would be a rocky road) as well as wider Scottish independence which would involve Scotland undoing almost 300 years of political and monetary union with our biggest trading partner and the only country we have a land border with. Yet dismiss any claims that the UK disentangling itself from the EU and developing its own trade and immigration policies and everything else over time with the wider world is some sort of mentalism that is doomed to fail.

    Seems to me that both Leave and Yes promote some flavour of Independence but your viewpoint appears to be that one is the best idea ever and the other sheer folly. Yet both require potential short to medium pain and a huge amount of negotiation and realignment of fiscal policies, monetary policies, people and economies.

    Such a stance is some what puzzling..especially when you consider that the EU has a known ambition for ever more political union, so a mandate to continue to centralise power yet Westminster has been steadily devolving power. You would think someone that believes so strongly in 'Independence' would see the EU as the biggest threat to self determination not Westminster.

    If you can prevent yourself from posting more trolling it would be interesting (mildly at least ;-)) to understand why that is the case.
    You talk about volatility in the event of Scotland having it's own currency. If you want the perfect example of volatility right now, look no further than the British Pound which is now pinning all it's hopes on the bubble of the housing market. Just wait until that implodes.

    The UK is our largest trading partner (within the European Union). A UK without access to the single market will not be our largest trading partner, they couldn't possibly be. The vast majority of trade that goes on between Scotland and the rest of the UK comes from imported stock through the single market.

    The UK can not develop it's own trade and immigration policies, as they both go hand in hand. You can't have open trade with the border shutters up. The UK Government knows this, which is why they're bricking themselves. They know they have no choice but to clamp down on immigration due to political demand. But they also know the detrimental effects this will have on trade and the overall UK Economy.

    There is nothing puzzling about my stance at all. I'm not sure if you're being intentionally naive or not. But your position on Scotland somehow being better off in a UK with closed borders and no access to the single market because of 300 years of "friendship" holds no weight whatsoever.

  11. #10
    There is a possibility that a rerun of the referendum will occur. The majority of MPs don't want an exit, and I suspect that most European leaders don't either, despite the statements now being made. Once passions have cooled they'll get down to calculation of how to achieve their goal.

    The whole thing was bizarre. A referendum is normally held to gain validation for change. This one was designed to de-fang internal Tory opposition and UKIP and the political elite had given no consideration to the consequences of defeat. Given the relatively close result in percentages and the lack of an exit plan prior to the vote, I can see another vote being called with people being asked to reconsider once there's an definite alternative actually laid out.

    Our vote will have an effect on other countries. Is the EU (in particular the Eurozone) to be a nation with a central government or an exercise in co-operation between independent nations? I think the politicians in Brussels would like the former. I'm not sure that they'll have general support from the people they want to rule.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballengeich View Post
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    There is a possibility that a rerun of the referendum will occur. The majority of MPs don't want an exit, and I suspect that most European leaders don't either, despite the statements now being made. Once passions have cooled they'll get down to calculation of how to achieve their goal.

    The whole thing was bizarre. A referendum is normally held to gain validation for change. This one was designed to de-fang internal Tory opposition and UKIP and the political elite had given no consideration to the consequences of defeat. Given the relatively close result in percentages and the lack of an exit plan prior to the vote, I can see another vote being called with people being asked to reconsider once there's an definite alternative actually laid out.

    Our vote will have an effect on other countries. Is the EU (in particular the Eurozone) to be a nation with a central government or an exercise in co-operation between independent nations? I think the politicians in Brussels would like the former. I'm not sure that they'll have general support from the people they want to rule.
    So in other words cos the majority of MPs wanted to remain so when the dust settles, they will manipulate things to get their own way and ignore this referendum where the majority voted leave. True democracy

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    You talk about volatility in the event of Scotland having it's own currency. If you want the perfect example of volatility right now, look no further than the British Pound which is now pinning all it's hopes on the bubble of the housing market. Just wait until that implodes. The UK is our largest trading partner (within the European Union). A UK without access to the single market will not be our largest trading partner, they couldn't possibly be. The vast majority of trade that goes on between Scotland and the rest of the UK comes from imported stock through the single market. The UK can not develop it's own trade and immigration policies, as they both go hand in hand. You can't have open trade with the border shutters up. The UK Government knows this, which is why they're bricking themselves. They know they have no choice but to clamp down on immigration due to political demand. But they also know the detrimental effects this will have on trade and the overall UK Economy. There is nothing puzzling about my stance at all. I'm not sure if you're being intentionally naive or not. But your position on Scotland somehow being better off in a UK with closed borders and no access to the single market because of 300 years of "friendship" holds no weight whatsoever.
    Thanks for the response but you didn't answer the question at all apart form saying there is nothing puzzling about your stance...in your opinion clearly not but I was interested in some reasons as to why not.

    Let's be clear on on a few things here.

    The U.K. WILL have access to the single market through what ever agreement is reached. It's quite likely that some sort of tariff be that a set payment or a tariff on goods will be required. The EU imports huge amounts of goods from outwith the single market now the UK would be in no different a position to those countries.

    The borders will also not be closed. There will be a immigration policy that will allow the UK to limit or expand the numbers as it sees fit but using hyperbole like 'closed borders' is nonsense. Sure the numbers might be lower (they might not be) but maybe the mix might be better in terms of education and what they bring to the economy. There is plenty of options, zero immigration is not one of them.

    Anyway I asked you to at least try and explain how you could support a decade or more of disruption to Scotland and its economy but be so clear on your dislike of the U.K. essentially seeking independence from the EU but it looks like we will just leave it there as I wasn't overly interested in hyperbole or dismissing the intrinsic links Scotland has with rUK as mere friendship..

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn2015 View Post
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    So in other words cos the majority of MPs wanted to remain so when the dust settles, they will manipulate things to get their own way and ignore this referendum where the majority voted leave. True democracy
    They won't ignore the result, but I can see the question being put again once the consequences of leave are clearer.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Thanks for the response but you didn't answer the question at all apart form saying there is nothing puzzling about your stance...in your opinion clearly not but I was interested in some reasons as to why not.

    Let's be clear on on a few things here.

    The U.K. WILL have access to the single market through what ever agreement is reached. It's quite likely that some sort of tariff be that a set payment or a tariff on goods will be required. The EU imports huge amounts of goods from outwith the single market now the UK would be in no different a position to those countries.

    The borders will also not be closed. There will be a immigration policy that will allow the UK to limit or expand the numbers as it sees fit but using hyperbole like 'closed borders' is nonsense. Sure the numbers might be lower (they might not be) but maybe the mix might be better in terms of education and what they bring to the economy. There is plenty of options, zero immigration is not one of them.

    Anyway I asked you to at least try and explain how you could support a decade or more of disruption to Scotland and its economy but be so clear on your dislike of the U.K. essentially seeking independence from the EU but it looks like we will just leave it there as I wasn't overly interested in hyperbole or dismissing the intrinsic links Scotland has with rUK as mere friendship..
    We're going around in circles here. The UK will only have access to the single market if they allow the free movement of Labour, tariffs or not. If they allow the free movement of Labour, people will then defect to UKIP once they play the "betrayal" card. Which will lead to a government that will drag us out of the single market if the Conservatives don't. Either way, the UK will be dragged out of the single market.

    I would support a disruption to the Scottish Economy in the event of independence, because I believe it would be less of a disruption than the current path that we're on.

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    We're going around in circles here. The UK will only have access to the single market if they allow the free movement of Labour, tariffs or not. If they allow the free movement of Labour, people will then defect to UKIP once they play the "betrayal" card. Which will lead to a government that will drag us out of the single market if the Conservatives don't. Either way, the UK will be dragged out of the single market. I would support a disruption to the Scottish Economy in the event of independence, because I believe it would be less of a disruption than the current path that we're on.
    But we could still export to the EU in the same way non EU countries do now...as I said there would be costs attached but then there is costs attached to being in the EU. The point is that the EU market will still be available to the UK but on different terms, but so will the rest of the worlds markets be available on terms the UK and the other party agree on. All of that can be done without having to wait on the EU to decide those terms or indeed on terms more aligned to the UK's interests than those that were agreed by the EU. And all of that could be achieved without having to agree on free movement of labour.
    China for example exports twice as much to the EU as it imports yet there is no free movement of labour with there.

    OK so now we have it, you believe Scotland independence will be less disruptive to Scotland and its economy (even if we introduced a new currency) than a Brexit. I'm wholly unconvinced that would be the case.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    Do you honestly think that the stock market revolves around the UK economy?

    If the stock market is doing well, but the pound remains weak. Then Brussels will have even less motive to negotiate a single market deal with the UK Government.
    The big talking on trade deals will be done by the Germans, French and the Dutch, Juncker and his clan will have to take a wide berth, they aint fit for purpose.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    But we could still export to the EU in the same way non EU countries do now...as I said there would be costs attached but then there is costs attached to being in the EU. The point is that the EU market will still be available to the UK but on different terms, but so will the rest of the worlds markets be available on terms the UK and the other party agree on. All of that can be done without having to wait on the EU to decide those terms or indeed on terms more aligned to the UK's interests than those that were agreed by the EU. And all of that could be achieved without having to agree on free movement of labour.
    China for example exports twice as much to the EU as it imports yet there is no free movement of labour with there.

    OK so now we have it, you believe Scotland independence will be less disruptive to Scotland and its economy (even if we introduced a new currency) than a Brexit. I'm wholly unconvinced that would be the case.
    China is the worlds largest exporter. Of course exceptions are going to be made in Chinas case. Every country in the world wants China as a trading partner, they would be crazy not to. The UK is not China, the same exceptions will not be made in our case. Angela Merkel has been very clear about this. The UK will not have access to the single market if they remove the free movement of Labour.

    Brexiters may want to believe that the UK is considered as important as China on the international stage. It's a far cry from reality however.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    You talk about volatility in the event of Scotland having it's own currency. If you want the perfect example of volatility right now, look no further than the British Pound which is now pinning all it's hopes on the bubble of the housing market. Just wait until that implodes.

    The UK is our largest trading partner (within the European Union). A UK without access to the single market will not be our largest trading partner, they couldn't possibly be. The vast majority of trade that goes on between Scotland and the rest of the UK comes from imported stock through the single market.

    The UK can not develop it's own trade and immigration policies, as they both go hand in hand. You can't have open trade with the border shutters up. The UK Government knows this, which is why they're bricking themselves. They know they have no choice but to clamp down on immigration due to political demand. But they also know the detrimental effects this will have on trade and the overall UK Economy.

    There is nothing puzzling about my stance at all. I'm not sure if you're being intentionally naive or not. But your position on Scotland somehow being better off in a UK with closed borders and no access to the single market because of 300 years of "friendship" holds no weight whatsoever.
    Ok, Scotland export more to England than the entire EU, cutting off yer nose to spite yer face likes. We would pay tariffs to England, our biggest trade partner, have you never thought about that scenario if we went independent?

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    China is the worlds largest exporter. Of course exceptions are going to be made in Chinas case. Every country in the world wants China as a trading partner, they would be crazy not to. The UK is not China, the same exceptions will not be made in our case. Angela Merkel has been very clear about this. The UK will not have access to the single market if they remove the free movement of Labour. Brexiters may want to believe that the UK is considered as important as China on the international stage. It's a far cry from reality however.
    You are not getting the point...there are many many countries the EU trades with without freedom of movement requirements. There is zero reason to believe that the UK could not join them.

    It's also interesting to note that the two largest importers of goods after the US are China and Russia with whom there are huge geo political differences yet they have a rather lucrative trade with the EU. Your supposition therefore that the UK will not be able to trade with the EU without free movement of labour is well wide of the mark...Turkey, Japan, South Korea, India and Brazil all do so.

  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    We're going around in circles here. The UK will only have access to the single market if they allow the free movement of Labour, tariffs or not. If they allow the free movement of Labour, people will then defect to UKIP once they play the "betrayal" card. Which will lead to a government that will drag us out of the single market if the Conservatives don't. Either way, the UK will be dragged out of the single market.

    I would support a disruption to the Scottish Economy in the event of independence, because I believe it would be less of a disruption than the current path that we're on.

    Youre speaking very confidently about something that is complete supposition. It's also based on a), the assumption that the UK electorate will 'defect to UKIP', a party which has little actual political clout at the moment (despite all the right wing enthusiasm currently), and is single issue (so a rather large risk to vote into government), and b) even if that did all come to pass, do you think even UKIP would torpedo Britain's ability to trade with our (all of Britain's that is) biggest trade partners?

    Your last statement is 100% guesswork, so using the word 'will' is stretching it. At best, it's a possibility.

  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    What will happen next?

    The BOE say that interest rates will be cut, which totally contradicts what George Osborne said would happen if we voted to leave.

    Happy days for those of us with mortgages. Well, happy days if you still have a job in a few months to pay for it. The leave campaign also said that tens of thousands of jobs would go if we left the EU so...

  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    The leave campaign also said that tens of thousands of jobs would go if we left the EU so...
    The leave campaign said this?

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    The leave campaign said this?
    Sorry, I meant remain. Not concentrating.

  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Sorry, I meant remain. Not concentrating.
    That's ok. I don't think anyone was concentrating during the referendum campaign.

  26. #25
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Thanks for the response but you didn't answer the question at all apart form saying there is nothing puzzling about your stance...in your opinion clearly not but I was interested in some reasons as to why not.

    Let's be clear on on a few things here.

    The U.K. WILL have access to the single market through what ever agreement is reached. It's quite likely that some sort of tariff be that a set payment or a tariff on goods will be required. The EU imports huge amounts of goods from outwith the single market now the UK would be in no different a position to those countries.

    The borders will also not be closed. There will be a immigration policy that will allow the UK to limit or expand the numbers as it sees fit but using hyperbole like 'closed borders' is nonsense. Sure the numbers might be lower (they might not be) but maybe the mix might be better in terms of education and what they bring to the economy. There is plenty of options, zero immigration is not one of them.

    Anyway I asked you to at least try and explain how you could support a decade or more of disruption to Scotland and its economy but be so clear on your dislike of the U.K. essentially seeking independence from the EU but it looks like we will just leave it there as I wasn't overly interested in hyperbole or dismissing the intrinsic links Scotland has with rUK as mere friendship..
    If the UK wants access to the EU trading zone then it will have to accept freedom of movement with the EU.
    There will either be no change to freedom of movement or no Deal.

  27. #26
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Was in Central London yesterday where a big pro-remain rally was taking part. Overwhelmingly attended by young people.

    They need to get engaged here and also to demand the vote is dropped to 16. They are being shafted by the boomer generation and need to start fighting back.

    The old are shutting off their opportunities whilst demanding kore and more of the pot for their health and social care whilst the young are being saddled with debts for education and denied access to home ownership.

    There's a massive inter-generational crisis arising out of Brexit but young people need to stop taking it on the chin.

    If they want in,they have to make it clear that they are not going to accept taking all the downside.

  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Was in Central London yesterday where a big pro-remain rally was taking part. Overwhelmingly attended by young people.

    They need to get engaged here and also to demand the vote is dropped to 16. They are being shafted by the boomer generation and need to start fighting back.

    The old are shutting off their opportunities whilst demanding kore and more of the pot for their health and social care whilst the young are being saddled with debts for education and denied access to home ownership.

    There's a massive inter-generational crisis arising out of Brexit but young people need to stop taking it on the chin.

    If they want in,they have to make it clear that they are not going to accept taking all the downside.
    If the younger generation had come out and voted then the result may have been different. Roughly two thirds didn't vote.

    Of those eligible to vote a proportionately higher number of older folk voted to remain than younger folk.

  29. #28
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    If the younger generation had come out and voted then the result may have been different. Roughly two thirds didn't vote.

    Of those eligible to vote a proportionately higher number of older folk voted to remain than younger folk.
    It's incredible ****wittery that they don't and it didn't happen on the Scottish referendum.

    Schools should definitely do more to make kids more engaged in political issues as part of their pastoral role.

    I was dumbfounded by some of the vox pops on the TV during the campaign some young people saying nobody had explained what it was about to them!! So much for the connected generation - surely they can google it!!

  30. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    On another note. The post that the OP quoted is longer than one paragraph. The Be-leavers struggle with anything longer than a sentence. That's why cheap empty slogans were enough to sway them.
    A spectacularly ignorant post, regardless of which way you voted (or not).

  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    It's incredible ****wittery that they don't and it didn't happen on the Scottish referendum.

    Schools should definitely do more to make kids more engaged in political issues as part of their pastoral role.

    I was dumbfounded by some of the vox pops on the TV during the campaign some young people saying nobody had explained what it was about to them!! So much for the connected generation - surely they can google it!!
    Oh man, that really rips my knitting when you see some halfwit looking all confused and complaining about "they don't give you enough information to make a decision" kind of thing.Very common on Question Time, vox pops and the like.

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