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  1. #2221
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Most people I know that I've spoken to on the subject (both Yes and No on Indy) would gladly see Brexit fail. I'd personally be delighted to see the UK continue as an EU member even though I think it would put Indy off for a few years at least.
    I imagine it depends on how interested in politics those you speak with are when it comes to something as mind-numbing as Brexit. I'm probably generalising, but I'd suggest a large majority of the Scottish population and that of the UK at large have long become bored to the back teeth with it and have simply lost interest. That's certainly where I'm at with it, despite having voted to remain in the EU and feeling genuinely shocked at the time that the Yes vote held sway two years ago.

    It's undoubtedly a source of major frustration to the SNP that the post-Brexit uprising they anticipated in Scotland never materialised to any significant degree, hence this ongoing attempt to whip up some semblance of Scottish rage about the supposed 'power grab' (a phrase now almost as tiresome as 'hard Brexit cliff edge'). Unlike the more mature approach of the Welsh government, it's little more than a childish refusal to grant consent under any circumstance to the Brexit bill in the hope it will spark some sort of shift in those stubborn polling figures which show no change in the Scottish electorate's desire for independence. As far as I can see, the powers supposedly being 'taken away' were never under Scottish parliamentary control in the first place so this faux outrage is based on a manufactured grievance designed only to keep the independence fires flickering.

    Like it or not, a majority of the UK electorate (including a not insignificant minority of just under 40% of the Scottish electorate which included a number of SNP supporters) exercised their democratic right to vote for a departure from the EU, but as with the 2014 independence referendum the SNP seem incapable of comprehending that their view of the world isn't shared by everyone.


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  3. #2222
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Losing a battle dosent mean youíve lost the war.

    If that were the case there would be one election. Then we would all shut up shop for the rest of eternity.

    J

  4. #2223
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Losing a battle dosent mean youíve lost the war.

    If that were the case there would be one election. Then we would all shut up shop for the rest of eternity.

    J

    This is true, though there are probably a significant number of people right now who would happily settle for a moratorium on elections and referendums for the next five years or so...

  5. #2224
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    This is true, though there are probably a significant number of people right now who would happily settle for a moratorium on elections and referendums for the next five years or so...
    Thatís possibly because they donít realise the impact Brexit will have on their lives.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  6. #2225
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    Thatís possibly because they donít realise the impact Brexit will have on their lives.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

    Or maybe they do but they're also pretty sick of ***** politics and ***** politicians.

  7. #2226
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I think myself and at least one other prominent supporter of independence on here kinda contradict that particular generalisation. In fact I'm toiling to think of another Scottish ex military mate who confirms your cliche.
    I realised it was a generalisation and I know some on both sides. Pity the yes supporters now live in Spain.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  8. #2227
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    I realised it was a generalisation and I know some on both sides. Pity the yes supporters now live in Spain.

    As a No voter you won't find me on too many of the 12th July marches you alluded to...

  9. #2228
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    As a No voter you won't find me on too many of the 12th July marches you alluded to...
    I daresay there aren't many in these parts..😂

    Bit no doubt it is a factor in some of the less enlightended parts of Scotland...And god, can you imagine the level of political discussion between those bowler hat wearing noel-hunts across west Lothian and Ayrshire? It will make us look like a Mensa convention!

  10. #2229
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I daresay there aren't many in these parts..😂

    Bit no doubt it is a factor in some of the less enlightended parts of Scotland...And god, can you imagine the level of political discussion between those bowler hat wearing noel-hunts across west Lothian and Ayrshire? It will make us look like a Mensa convention!

    I was brought up a Catholic in a mixed marriage where the immediate background of the two families was Roman Catholic and Free Church of Scotland (both sides regular attenders). Doctrinally allergic to one another but in everyday terms never a harsh word spoken or a significant difference seen.

    The bowler hatters of Ayrshire and West Lothian are vestigial fossils running on folk memory autopilot. They could no more explain meaningful religious differences than they could explain structural deficit, currency dependency or EU membership requirements. They're 'No' for a reason, but not necessarily a good one. Big mistake to assume that they are in any way representative of our No majority.

    Are you suggesting we're less than the apogee of refined and informed debate?

  11. #2230
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    I was brought up a Catholic in a mixed marriage where the immediate background of the two families was Roman Catholic and Free Church of Scotland (both sides regular attenders). Doctrinally allergic to one another but in everyday terms never a harsh word spoken or a significant difference seen.

    The bowler hatters of Ayrshire and West Lothian are vestigial fossils running on folk memory autopilot. They could no more explain meaningful religious differences than they could explain structural deficit, currency dependency or EU membership requirements. They're 'No' for a reason, but not necessarily a good one. Big mistake to assume that they are in any way representative of our No majority.

    Are you suggesting we're less than the apogee of refined and informed debate?
    Wouldn't it be brilliant if we could get the Huns to break into a chorus of "sing while you're transubstantiating!"

    And it's also a mistake to discount any of the various factions in either Yes or No camp. There might not be that many left in the hardline Orange faction but then again, there probably wouldn't have been a majority against independence without them.

  12. #2231
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    Am I picking you up right - you're saying Labour supporteres and SNP supporters dislike each other in equal measures? I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases but the point I'm making is one value base is derived from differentiation and accusations of oppression and the other value base is more rooted in internationalism. Having said that, clearly a lot of Labour voters voted for Brexit and not every SNP supporter wants to blame the English for everything.
    Ok, I picked you up wrong. I don't want to blame the English for anything. I blame the people of Scotland for outsourcing governing we should be doing ourselves and for becoming reliant on a public funding formula that's patently unfair to the detriment of others.

    That's not the point I was making to RyeSloan. It was highlighting that if SNP is keen on self-determination, why does it want to continue being part of a union that would insist it followed its directives and legislation?
    It seems fairly straightforward to me. Some things are best agreed at a supranational level. The EU is (to me) a much better compromise for Scotland than the UK.

    Other theoretical compromise scenarios that might make as much or even more sense: a subsidiarity style Europe of powerful regions, a federal UK in the EU etc will never happen in my lifetime. We now only have a practical choice of devolved Scotland in Brexit UK or Indy Scotland in EU.

    EU admissions criteria state that candidate demonstrate adherence to the aims of monetary and economic union, and everyone in the EU but not the Eurozone is obliged to join the Eurozone when they meet the criteria, bar Denmark and the UK IIRC. To be honest, if Scotland joined the EU as a member state I would probably want us using the Euro if possible.
    Technically you're correct, but for EU accession, it's couched in woolly terms of aspiration and practically there's no way to make a country join the Euro if it doesn't want to (Sweden has been theoretically committed to join the Euro for over 20 years). If it does want to, then strict convergence criteria apply (although lots of them were waived for the original founding members which stored up trouble).

  13. #2232
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2...pt-looks-like/

    Even wee dugs ken what's goin' on.

  14. #2233
    Quite a nat-friendly front page from the Vowmeisters ...


  15. #2234
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2...pt-looks-like/

    Even wee dugs ken what's goin' on.

    Wee dugs are the antithesis of kennin' what's goin' on - especially ginger wans.

  16. #2235
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Wee dugs are the antithesis of kennin' what's goin' on - especially ginger wans.
    We all get accused of barking up the wrong tree, I suppose.
    Each to his own.

  17. #2236
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Quite a nat-friendly front page from the Vowmeisters ...

    That worries me, TBH. Just the fact that it can be interpreted as nat-friendly.
    Keeping friends close & enemies closer?

  18. #2237
    Pun Lovin' Criminal Northernhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    Am I picking you up right - you're saying Labour supporteres and SNP supporters dislike each other in equal measures? I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases but the point I'm making is one value base is derived from differentiation and accusations of oppression and the other value base is more rooted in internationalism. Having said that, clearly a lot of Labour voters voted for Brexit and not every SNP supporter wants to blame the English for everything
    Actually, there was only 1% of difference between the share of Brexit vote within Labour and the SNP. 37% to 36%.


    Do you think your security can keep you in purity, you will not shake us off above or below. Scottish friction, Scottish fiction

  19. #2238
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Latest debate happening just now. Amendment to the Lords amendment on parliament vote being decided. Whether Parliament should have a meaningful vote on the final 'deal or no deal'

    and it is Ayes 303 - noes 319

    the noes Have it

    majority of 16 in favour of NOT giving Parliament a meaningful vote!!!!

    We're all doomed I tell ye
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  20. #2239
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Latest debate happening just now. Amendment to the Lords amendment on parliament vote being decided. Whether Parliament should have a meaningful vote on the final 'deal or no deal'

    and it is Ayes 303 - noes 319

    the noes Have it

    majority of 16 in favour of NOT giving Parliament a meaningful vote!!!!

    We're all doomed I tell ye
    Labour MP's voted with the Tories, or abstained again?


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  21. #2240
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Warned by who?

    And just British made products or services as well?

    And if the products are made in the U.K. but by European owned companies are they to be warned not to buy these as well?

    And if this is true are you saying that Airbus has been warned to make planes without wing and fuel systems?

    In other words this is bollox isnít it?
    Saw this and thought of you ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-brexit-impact

  22. #2241
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Latest debate happening just now. Amendment to the Lords amendment on parliament vote being decided. Whether Parliament should have a meaningful vote on the final 'deal or no deal'

    and it is Ayes 303 - noes 319

    the noes Have it

    majority of 16 in favour of NOT giving Parliament a meaningful vote!!!!

    We're all doomed I tell ye
    Sorry if this a dense question, MPs have voted to not have a vote on the final deal?

    What is the reasoning for that?
    Mon the Hibs.

  23. #2242
    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    Sorry if this a dense question, MPs have voted to not have a vote on the final deal?

    What is the reasoning for that?
    The answer is impenetrable, let alone dense!

    - Originally the government wanted no vote in parliament on the deal at all, the government would decide.

    - Under pressure they conceded a vote, but the vote would be take it or leave it, ie. accept the deal or leave with no deal.

    - this was amended by the Lords to accept the deal or direct the government to go and negotiate another one

    - this was amended by the Commons to accept the deal or make a more or less meaningless statement

    - this was ameneded again by the Lords to accept the deal or make a statement which could be amended by the Commons to turn into a direction to the government

    - this was amended again (finally) to accept the deal or make a statement which might be amendable depending on what the speaker thinks


    (I think)

    The reasoning behind the government position is that if the EU knows parliament won't allow a crash out with no deal, they have every incentive to drive as hard a bargain as possible, hoping the UK will eventually have to throw the towel in and accept it or give up on Brexit and just remain after all.

    (again, I think)

  24. #2243
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The answer is impenetrable, let alone dense!

    - Originally the government wanted no vote in parliament on the deal at all, the government would decide.

    - Under pressure they conceded a vote, but the vote would be take it or leave it, ie. accept the deal or leave with no deal.

    - this was amended by the Lords to accept the deal or direct the government to go and negotiate another one

    - this was amended by the Commons to accept the deal or make a more or less meaningless statement

    - this was ameneded again by the Lords to accept the deal or make a statement which could be amended by the Commons to turn into a direction to the government

    - this was amended again (finally) to accept the deal or make a statement which might be amendable depending on what the speaker thinks


    (I think)

    The reasoning behind the government position is that if the EU knows parliament won't allow a crash out with no deal, they have every incentive to drive as hard a bargain as possible, hoping the UK will eventually have to throw the towel in and accept it or give up on Brexit and just remain after all.

    (again, I think)


    Thanks. I can see the reasoning behind it now.
    Mon the Hibs.

  25. #2244
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Sure. And the likelihood of a no deal Brexit?

    No denial from me that a no deal Brexit will impact hard, I just think that itís highly unlikely.

  26. #2245
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Sure. And the likelihood of a no deal Brexit?

    No denial from me that a no deal Brexit will impact hard, I just think that itís highly unlikely.
    ďIt said leaving the single market, and the customs union and the European court of justice would heavily disrupt its supply chain.Ē

    Even a ďdealĒ will have a negative effect. This is madness.

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