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  1. #1
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    What is "The Scottish Game"?

    I've seen this old cliché countless times regarding a potential new manager, but I don't know what it means.

    "He knows the league."

    "Understands Scottish football".

    What's so different about the SPFL from other leagues that not having direct knowledge and experience of it is such a colossal handicap?


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  3. #2
    @hibs.net private member bingo70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    I've seen this old cliché countless times regarding a potential new manager, but I don't know what it means.

    "He knows the league."

    "Understands Scottish football".

    What's so different about the SPFL from other leagues that not having direct knowledge and experience of it is such a colossal handicap?
    I have to say I don’t get that school of thought and find it very frustrating to read.

    Playing devils advocate though I think there is a few things they need to understand.

    -you need to win battles, Heckingbottom tried to play a midfield without someone that could tackle and it didn’t work. The game here is fast and furious and you need players who can play that way.

    -I think you need to accept you need to play a different way when playing away at Celtic compared to what you play at home against St Johnstone for example.

    - if you underestimate it you’ll last 5 minutes. It’s a much better and more competitive league than it’s given credit for.

    Where I get frustrated though is the idea you need to have experience of Scottish football to understand the above. You just need to spend 5 minutes learning about it. It’s not some magical land with complex tactics that you need a 5 year education in, just give it the respect it deserves.

  4. #3
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingo70 View Post
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    I have to say I don’t get that school of thought and find it very frustrating to read.

    Playing devils advocate though I think there is a few things they need to understand.

    -you need to win battles, Heckingbottom tried to play a midfield without someone that could tackle and it didn’t work. The game here is fast and furious and you need players who can play that way.

    -I think you need to accept you need to play a different way when playing away at Celtic compared to what you play at home against St Johnstone for example.

    - if you underestimate it you’ll last 5 minutes. It’s a much better and more competitive league than it’s given credit for.

    Where I get frustrated though is the idea you need to have experience of Scottish football to understand the above. You just need to spend 5 minutes learning about it. It’s not some magical land with complex tactics that you need a 5 year education in, just give it the respect it deserves.
    My thoughts exactly.

    I occasionally watch Bradford City in League 2 and York City in non-league. All the points you make are relevant to both those leagues and they'll equally apply in League One.

    Underestimating the league isn't really important, imo. It's underestimating opponents than gets you f***ed and any manager can do that in any league against anyone.

    Unless I've missed something, "knowledge of the league" isn't even close to being a prerequisite. In fact, in some ways, it can be a hindrance.
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  5. #4
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    I get why folk have this issue but I don't really agree with it.

    Down South there are certain aspects of football culture that are different to here. In the lower leagues there are 46 league games per season. Due to FFP rules, most of the teams are of a similar standard and the financial advantages held by the biggest clubs (like when a big club drops into league 1) are watered down a bit. A point on the road can often be considered to be a good result, and teams can play effectively and win lots of points hitting teams on the break.

    Up here in the premier league we've got teams from EPL to league 2 standard all in the same league imo. At Hibs and at home we'll have a lot of teams come who have very little interest in having possession and taking us on at football. They'll have much less resource and will be used to utilising that to defend in depth and hit us on the break, therefore we'll need to have a squad that is as capable of dominating possession and winning lots of points against "weaker" teams as it is taking on similar sized clubs (Hearts and Aberdeen) and trying to nick bits here and there off Celtic and Rangers.

    I reckon that's why you see a clearly capable manager in Heckingbottom fail at Hibs - he had his rigid 451 that didn't do enough to break teams down, and it's where a lot of our managers are going to fail if we take them from that market.

    So it's nothing about "getting Scottish football" but everything about being able to put together a squad at Hibs that is effective in front of a restless Easter Road crowd but also effective when travelling to away grounds of clubs who have less resource but who can still put out handy, tough, difficult to beat teams.

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    It’s knowing how to play in the howling wind and rain at Inverness on a Tuesday night, or understanding why rivalries exist and how important they are. It knowing stuff like Hamilton will just punt the ball and that, hearts are hammer throwers and prefer rugby. That kinda thing imo.

  7. #6
    I don't think you can come in to Scottish football blind to the rivalries, blood and thunder nature of it etc, but any manager worth their salt would do their homework anyway. I think having a proven track record in the league is very different to an outsider "understanding" Scottish football though. I think right now we need the former rather than the latter.

  8. #7
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by #2 Double Tap View Post
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    It’s knowing how to play in the howling wind and rain at Inverness on a Tuesday night, or understanding why rivalries exist and how important they are. It knowing stuff like Hamilton will just punt the ball and that, hearts are hammer throwers and prefer rugby. That kinda thing imo.
    Does that not apply to Stoke as well?
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    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Defining features of the Scottish game can mostly be applied to any country in Europe, just with different accents.

    What sets Scottish football apart for me is the sectarianism amongst its two biggest clubs being actively exploited by both teams because it sells jerseys.

    I wouldn't swap Scottish football for anything, but I would see the sectarianism booted in to outer space so quick it would singe your eyebrows.
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  10. #9
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I get why folk have this issue but I don't really agree with it.

    Down South there are certain aspects of football culture that are different to here. In the lower leagues there are 46 league games per season. Due to FFP rules, most of the teams are of a similar standard and the financial advantages held by the biggest clubs (like when a big club drops into league 1) are watered down a bit. A point on the road can often be considered to be a good result, and teams can play effectively and win lots of points hitting teams on the break.

    Up here in the premier league we've got teams from EPL to league 2 standard all in the same league imo. At Hibs and at home we'll have a lot of teams come who have very little interest in having possession and taking us on at football. They'll have much less resource and will be used to utilising that to defend in depth and hit us on the break, therefore we'll need to have a squad that is as capable of dominating possession and winning lots of points against "weaker" teams as it is taking on similar sized clubs (Hearts and Aberdeen) and trying to nick bits here and there off Celtic and Rangers.

    I reckon that's why you see a clearly capable manager in Heckingbottom fail at Hibs - he had his rigid 451 that didn't do enough to break teams down, and it's where a lot of our managers are going to fail if we take them from that market.

    So it's nothing about "getting Scottish football" but everything about being able to put together a squad at Hibs that is effective in front of a restless Easter Road crowd but also effective when travelling to away grounds of clubs who have less resource but who can still put out handy, tough, difficult to beat teams.
    Pretty well summed up. The above notwithstanding If you want to give a player experience of all the stuff he might face in his career you could probably do worse than loan him to us or Hearts. There can't be many leagues where you can play in a small ground in front of 5,000 a medium sized ground in front of 16,000 plus and a huge stadium in front of 50,000 plus in the space of a fortnight in the league. You wont get that in the EPL reserve league north or whatever they play in. You can also experience European football and the intensity of a fiercely fought derby. It's the whole package really.

  11. #10
    I think there has to be an acknowledgment that the game is often played at a break neck speed in Scotland, not necessarily prior knowledge of that but a willingness to adapt to it is probably required. Of course a lot of leagues play far slicker and quicker football but it's a weird kind of speed in Scotland that can see teams run off their feet if they aren't prepared for it. I would argue our results against Luzern are a clear example of when that can be an advantage. Their manager was mouthing off post game about how much better they were than us and if we are talking about purely technical ability then he is probably right. Over 2 legs though we were well worth our win despite not playing football that was as intricate or pretty. It arguably impacts players more than managers; think of Joey Barton watching as 3 Hamilton midfielders strolled past him at will on his debut. He went on to play EPL football again after that episode. Roy Keane admitted he knew he was done when Brown, Stewart et al were walking past him and at Hibs Edwin De Graaf was a technically sound player but was miles off the pace here. I'm just not convinced anyone wanting to play a really, slow, patient, possession based game is going to succeed here. Celtic under Postecoglu certainly dominated the ball but it was very quick and typified by constant movement.

    I also think a manager has to quickly learn that in a large number of our home games teams are going to sit in and be very stuffy. If we try to let other teams dominate the ball and play counter attacking football at home to Ross County or St Johnstone then you are going to be dealing with some very frustrated fans very quickly and be on the end of more than 1 or 2 'embarrassing' results.

    I don't think any of those require a prior knowledge of the Scottish game; rather they need a bit of pragmatism and an ability to learn and adapt quickly. It's arguably an unwillingness or inability to do so that has cost 3 or 4 recent managers their jobs here.
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  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    Does that not apply to Stoke as well?
    Try Grimsby on a blustery Wednesday in January, or Blackpool anytime!
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  13. #12
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingo70 View Post
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    I have to say I don’t get that school of thought and find it very frustrating to read.

    Playing devils advocate though I think there is a few things they need to understand.

    -you need to win battles, Heckingbottom tried to play a midfield without someone that could tackle and it didn’t work. The game here is fast and furious and you need players who can play that way.

    -I think you need to accept you need to play a different way when playing away at Celtic compared to what you play at home against St Johnstone for example.

    - if you underestimate it you’ll last 5 minutes. It’s a much better and more competitive league than it’s given credit for.

    Where I get frustrated though is the idea you need to have experience of Scottish football to understand the above. You just need to spend 5 minutes learning about it. It’s not some magical land with complex tactics that you need a 5 year education in, just give it the respect it deserves.
    Yep all things considered it is a pretty basic league where rudimentary tactics work and more physical teams get away with much more than they should. Poor standard of refereeing plays into that imo. Leveins Hearts McInness Aberdeen being examples. Then when played in Europe get totally outplayed when's refs don't allow that physicality and more skilful teams expose them. Not rocket science it is football.

  14. #13
    Coaching Staff Waxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    I've seen this old cliché countless times regarding a potential new manager, but I don't know what it means.

    "He knows the league."

    "Understands Scottish football".

    What's so different about the SPFL from other leagues that not having direct knowledge and experience of it is such a colossal handicap?
    I suppose every league has its own unique brand of football.
    But does he understand Hungarian football?
    Equadorian football.
    In a few week he’ll have had experience of Scottish football.

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    Quote Originally Posted by #2 Double Tap View Post
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    It’s knowing how to play in the howling wind and rain at Inverness on a Tuesday night, or understanding why rivalries exist and how important they are. It knowing stuff like Hamilton will just punt the ball and that, hearts are hammer throwers and prefer rugby. That kinda thing imo.

    All of the above happens throughout English football including the weather.

  16. #15
    @hibs.net private member WhileTheChief..'s Avatar
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    Folk have talked about the Scottish game being different for as long as I e watched football.

    I’d imagine people in other countries say similar about their own leagues.

    The game is played differently in different countries without doubt.

    You just need to watch Sportscene then MOTD to see the difference.

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    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    Try Grimsby on a blustery Wednesday in January, or Blackpool anytime!
    I've ticked that particular footballing experience off my list, I was a Mariner Feb 2015 - Nov 2015.
    "...when Hibs won the Scottish Cup final and that celebration, Sunshine on Leith? I don’t think there’s a better football celebration ever in the game.”

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  18. #17
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    Folk have talked about the Scottish game being different for as long as I e watched football.

    I’d imagine people in other countries say similar about their own leagues.

    The game is played differently in different countries without doubt.

    You just need to watch Sportscene then MOTD to see the difference.
    There is doubt.

    What are the differences that incoming managers must have experience of?
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  19. #18
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    I've ticked that particular footballing experience off my list, I was a Mariner Feb 2015 - Nov 2015.
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  20. #19
    Coaching Staff heretoday's Avatar
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    You don't get much against the Old Firm. That's the Scottish Game in a nutshell.

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    @hibs.net private member WhileTheChief..'s Avatar
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    I never mentioned managers but as you ask, for starters, a manager from Scotland is well aware of opposing teams and players.

    Someone coming from abroad will likely have never heard of a single player from Livvi, Ross Co et al.

    We talk about how so and so will set their team up against us, based on prior experience and knowledge. A new coach from abroad won’t have that to draw on.

    Every time you hear a manager being interviewed he’ll talk about how hard it is going to Pittodrie or similar. A foreign manger wouldn’t have a clue and wouldn’t know what to expect.

    Whenever we’ve signed a player from abroad you’ll see posts here saying the player will need time to adjust and settle. Does that not also apply to a manager?

    Now, all of a sudden because we’re interested in someone coming from abroad we’ve just to dismiss any concerns we previously held? Seems a bit naive to me.

    We’ve had LJ, Heckingbottom and Calderwood all coming from England without ever being involved in our game and they were disasters.

    I know that doesn’t mean everyone from outwith Scotland will follow suit, but it should at least act as a warning.

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    @hibs.net private member greenginger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heretoday View Post
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    You don't get much against the Old Firm. That's the Scottish Game in a nutshell.
    Absolutely no point in appealing for a penalty at Ibrox.

    They are only given to the home team.

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    @hibs.net private member WhileTheChief..'s Avatar
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    Italian football has always been described as being slow and defensive. Their national side built their reputation on it.

    Brazil have a reputation for free flowing attacking football

    Different countries have different styles. It’s always been the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    I never mentioned managers but as you ask, for starters, a manager from Scotland is well aware of opposing teams and players.

    Someone coming from abroad will likely have never heard of a single player from Livvi, Ross Co et al.

    We talk about how so and so will set their team up against us, based on prior experience and knowledge. A new coach from abroad won’t have that to draw on.

    Every time you hear a manager being interviewed he’ll talk about how hard it is going to Pittodrie or similar. A foreign manger wouldn’t have a clue and wouldn’t know what to expect.

    Whenever we’ve signed a player from abroad you’ll see posts here saying the player will need time to adjust and settle. Does that not also apply to a manager?

    Now, all of a sudden because we’re interested in someone coming from abroad we’ve just to dismiss any concerns we previously held? Seems a bit naive to me.

    We’ve had LJ, Heckingbottom and Calderwood all coming from England without ever being involved in our game and they were disasters.

    I know that doesn’t mean everyone from outwith Scotland will follow suit, but it should at least act as a warning.

  25. #24
    @hibs.net private member bingo70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    I never mentioned managers but as you ask, for starters, a manager from Scotland is well aware of opposing teams and players.

    Someone coming from abroad will likely have never heard of a single player from Livvi, Ross Co et al.

    We talk about how so and so will set their team up against us, based on prior experience and knowledge. A new coach from abroad won’t have that to draw on.

    Every time you hear a manager being interviewed he’ll talk about how hard it is going to Pittodrie or similar. A foreign manger wouldn’t have a clue and wouldn’t know what to expect.

    Whenever we’ve signed a player from abroad you’ll see posts here saying the player will need time to adjust and settle. Does that not also apply to a manager?

    Now, all of a sudden because we’re interested in someone coming from abroad we’ve just to dismiss any concerns we previously held? Seems a bit naive to me.

    We’ve had LJ, Heckingbottom and Calderwood all coming from England without ever being involved in our game and they were disasters.

    I know that doesn’t mean everyone from outwith Scotland will follow suit, but it should at least act as a warning.
    Maybe to get an idea of players at these clubs and the challenges at these stadiums, they could watch videos, attend games not involving Hibs and lean on coaching staff who are already at the club.

    Not having first hand experience of Scottish football really isn’t close to being an insurmountable problem.

    I don’t think a player and manager needing time to settle is the same thing. A manager can do a lot of homework and learn a lot about it whilst not being involved in the match, it’s very difficult/impossible for a player to replicate match game situations in non competitive training scenarios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    There is doubt.

    What are the differences that incoming managers must have experience of?
    Physicality is one. The leagues in England have changed the refereeing to make it less physical. It's far more possession based now. Every manager that's came here from down south has talked about it. Some of the 'tackles' you see in Scotland are straight reds elsewhere and here a yellow at most see Youan at the weekend for an example. Part of me likes this though as I like a physical game.

    Apart from this I don't think it's any different and you're quite right that there's no reason to suspect anyone from outside can't handle it.

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    The Scottish game is quick, not technically great, and pretty physical.

    I don't think it's a stretch to say that a manager with no knowledge of Scottish football could struggle at first.

    If you come here thinking you can bring in your own style from somewhere else, and you're stubborn with it, you're going to struggle.

    It's important that we get someone who comes in and attempts to get the best out of what we have, not shoehorn players into a system they're not good at.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    The Scottish game is quick, not technically great, and pretty physical.

    I don't think it's a stretch to say that a manager with no knowledge of Scottish football could struggle at first.

    If you come here thinking you can bring in your own style from somewhere else, and you're stubborn with it, you're going to struggle.

    It's important that we get someone who comes in and attempts to get the best out of what we have, not shoehorn players into a system they're not good at.


    In a nutshell.

    The idea that the game isn't played differently in different places is an odd argument. Likewise the idea it is an insurmountable problem for even an average manager with a bit of common sense is equally odd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    I've seen this old cliché countless times regarding a potential new manager, but I don't know what it means.

    "He knows the league."

    "Understands Scottish football".

    What's so different about the SPFL from other leagues that not having direct knowledge and experience of it is such a colossal handicap?
    Scottish football is totally different from English Football. The games are referred differently, the game is played at a frantic pace but not full of skill and is win at all costs due to saying each other 4 times a season.

    If a manager doesnt understand these things they will be toast as we've seen.

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    I think it’s a statement chucked about by the football media in this country for so long to keep there pals on the merry go round it’s became fact, any professional will have done their homework on the club and league they are joining prior to any interview especially the ones uprooting there families from half way round the world.
    If guys like SDG and Daz aren’t giving info to any new man about what to expect from teams like Livi or the senior pros in the squad aren’t giving the heads up we’re in bother surely falls into their remit as well

  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    I never mentioned managers but as you ask, for starters, a manager from Scotland is well aware of opposing teams and players.

    Someone coming from abroad will likely have never heard of a single player from Livvi, Ross Co et al.

    We talk about how so and so will set their team up against us, based on prior experience and knowledge. A new coach from abroad won’t have that to draw on.

    Every time you hear a manager being interviewed he’ll talk about how hard it is going to Pittodrie or similar. A foreign manger wouldn’t have a clue and wouldn’t know what to expect.

    Whenever we’ve signed a player from abroad you’ll see posts here saying the player will need time to adjust and settle. Does that not also apply to a manager?

    Now, all of a sudden because we’re interested in someone coming from abroad we’ve just to dismiss any concerns we previously held? Seems a bit naive to me.

    We’ve had LJ, Heckingbottom and Calderwood all coming from England without ever being involved in our game and they were disasters.

    I know that doesn’t mean everyone from outwith Scotland will follow suit, but it should at least act as a warning.
    He will have some of the existing backroom team to call upon who know the players at Livi & Ross Co very well though and it won't take him long to get up to speed if he puts the work in behind the scenes.

    Secondly, a pedantic comment coming up - LJ played in Scotland.

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