I've seen this old cliché countless times regarding a potential new manager, but I don't know what it means.
"He knows the league."
"Understands Scottish football".
What's so different about the SPFL from other leagues that not having direct knowledge and experience of it is such a colossal handicap?
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Thread: What is "The Scottish Game"?
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05-09-2023 07:54 AM #1
What is "The Scottish Game"?
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05-09-2023 08:25 AM #2This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Playing devils advocate though I think there is a few things they need to understand.
-you need to win battles, Heckingbottom tried to play a midfield without someone that could tackle and it didn’t work. The game here is fast and furious and you need players who can play that way.
-I think you need to accept you need to play a different way when playing away at Celtic compared to what you play at home against St Johnstone for example.
- if you underestimate it you’ll last 5 minutes. It’s a much better and more competitive league than it’s given credit for.
Where I get frustrated though is the idea you need to have experience of Scottish football to understand the above. You just need to spend 5 minutes learning about it. It’s not some magical land with complex tactics that you need a 5 year education in, just give it the respect it deserves.
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05-09-2023 08:40 AM #3This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
I occasionally watch Bradford City in League 2 and York City in non-league. All the points you make are relevant to both those leagues and they'll equally apply in League One.
Underestimating the league isn't really important, imo. It's underestimating opponents than gets you f***ed and any manager can do that in any league against anyone.
Unless I've missed something, "knowledge of the league" isn't even close to being a prerequisite. In fact, in some ways, it can be a hindrance.
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05-09-2023 08:50 AM #4
I get why folk have this issue but I don't really agree with it.
Down South there are certain aspects of football culture that are different to here. In the lower leagues there are 46 league games per season. Due to FFP rules, most of the teams are of a similar standard and the financial advantages held by the biggest clubs (like when a big club drops into league 1) are watered down a bit. A point on the road can often be considered to be a good result, and teams can play effectively and win lots of points hitting teams on the break.
Up here in the premier league we've got teams from EPL to league 2 standard all in the same league imo. At Hibs and at home we'll have a lot of teams come who have very little interest in having possession and taking us on at football. They'll have much less resource and will be used to utilising that to defend in depth and hit us on the break, therefore we'll need to have a squad that is as capable of dominating possession and winning lots of points against "weaker" teams as it is taking on similar sized clubs (Hearts and Aberdeen) and trying to nick bits here and there off Celtic and Rangers.
I reckon that's why you see a clearly capable manager in Heckingbottom fail at Hibs - he had his rigid 451 that didn't do enough to break teams down, and it's where a lot of our managers are going to fail if we take them from that market.
So it's nothing about "getting Scottish football" but everything about being able to put together a squad at Hibs that is effective in front of a restless Easter Road crowd but also effective when travelling to away grounds of clubs who have less resource but who can still put out handy, tough, difficult to beat teams.
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05-09-2023 08:51 AM #5
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It’s knowing how to play in the howling wind and rain at Inverness on a Tuesday night, or understanding why rivalries exist and how important they are. It knowing stuff like Hamilton will just punt the ball and that, hearts are hammer throwers and prefer rugby. That kinda thing imo.
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05-09-2023 09:24 AM #6
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I don't think you can come in to Scottish football blind to the rivalries, blood and thunder nature of it etc, but any manager worth their salt would do their homework anyway. I think having a proven track record in the league is very different to an outsider "understanding" Scottish football though. I think right now we need the former rather than the latter.
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05-09-2023 09:26 AM #7This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote"...when Hibs won the Scottish Cup final and that celebration, Sunshine on Leith? I don’t think there’s a better football celebration ever in the game.”
Sir Alex Ferguson
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05-09-2023 09:29 AM #8
Defining features of the Scottish game can mostly be applied to any country in Europe, just with different accents.
What sets Scottish football apart for me is the sectarianism amongst its two biggest clubs being actively exploited by both teams because it sells jerseys.
I wouldn't swap Scottish football for anything, but I would see the sectarianism booted in to outer space so quick it would singe your eyebrows."...when Hibs won the Scottish Cup final and that celebration, Sunshine on Leith? I don’t think there’s a better football celebration ever in the game.”
Sir Alex Ferguson
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05-09-2023 09:48 AM #9This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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05-09-2023 09:51 AM #10
I think there has to be an acknowledgment that the game is often played at a break neck speed in Scotland, not necessarily prior knowledge of that but a willingness to adapt to it is probably required. Of course a lot of leagues play far slicker and quicker football but it's a weird kind of speed in Scotland that can see teams run off their feet if they aren't prepared for it. I would argue our results against Luzern are a clear example of when that can be an advantage. Their manager was mouthing off post game about how much better they were than us and if we are talking about purely technical ability then he is probably right. Over 2 legs though we were well worth our win despite not playing football that was as intricate or pretty. It arguably impacts players more than managers; think of Joey Barton watching as 3 Hamilton midfielders strolled past him at will on his debut. He went on to play EPL football again after that episode. Roy Keane admitted he knew he was done when Brown, Stewart et al were walking past him and at Hibs Edwin De Graaf was a technically sound player but was miles off the pace here. I'm just not convinced anyone wanting to play a really, slow, patient, possession based game is going to succeed here. Celtic under Postecoglu certainly dominated the ball but it was very quick and typified by constant movement.
I also think a manager has to quickly learn that in a large number of our home games teams are going to sit in and be very stuffy. If we try to let other teams dominate the ball and play counter attacking football at home to Ross County or St Johnstone then you are going to be dealing with some very frustrated fans very quickly and be on the end of more than 1 or 2 'embarrassing' results.
I don't think any of those require a prior knowledge of the Scottish game; rather they need a bit of pragmatism and an ability to learn and adapt quickly. It's arguably an unwillingness or inability to do so that has cost 3 or 4 recent managers their jobs here.PM Awards General Poster of The Year 2015, 2016, 2017. Probably robbed in other years
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05-09-2023 09:57 AM #11This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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05-09-2023 10:10 AM #12This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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05-09-2023 11:18 AM #13This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
But does he understand Hungarian football?
Equadorian football.
In a few week he’ll have had experience of Scottish football.
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05-09-2023 11:29 AM #14
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All of the above happens throughout English football including the weather.
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05-09-2023 11:35 AM #15
Folk have talked about the Scottish game being different for as long as I e watched football.
I’d imagine people in other countries say similar about their own leagues.
The game is played differently in different countries without doubt.
You just need to watch Sportscene then MOTD to see the difference.
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05-09-2023 11:42 AM #16This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote"...when Hibs won the Scottish Cup final and that celebration, Sunshine on Leith? I don’t think there’s a better football celebration ever in the game.”
Sir Alex Ferguson
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05-09-2023 11:51 AM #17This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
What are the differences that incoming managers must have experience of?
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05-09-2023 11:52 AM #18This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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05-09-2023 11:55 AM #19
You don't get much against the Old Firm. That's the Scottish Game in a nutshell.
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05-09-2023 12:02 PM #20
I never mentioned managers but as you ask, for starters, a manager from Scotland is well aware of opposing teams and players.
Someone coming from abroad will likely have never heard of a single player from Livvi, Ross Co et al.
We talk about how so and so will set their team up against us, based on prior experience and knowledge. A new coach from abroad won’t have that to draw on.
Every time you hear a manager being interviewed he’ll talk about how hard it is going to Pittodrie or similar. A foreign manger wouldn’t have a clue and wouldn’t know what to expect.
Whenever we’ve signed a player from abroad you’ll see posts here saying the player will need time to adjust and settle. Does that not also apply to a manager?
Now, all of a sudden because we’re interested in someone coming from abroad we’ve just to dismiss any concerns we previously held? Seems a bit naive to me.
We’ve had LJ, Heckingbottom and Calderwood all coming from England without ever being involved in our game and they were disasters.
I know that doesn’t mean everyone from outwith Scotland will follow suit, but it should at least act as a warning.
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05-09-2023 12:05 PM #21This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
They are only given to the home team.
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05-09-2023 12:07 PM #22
Italian football has always been described as being slow and defensive. Their national side built their reputation on it.
Brazil have a reputation for free flowing attacking football
Different countries have different styles. It’s always been the case.
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05-09-2023 12:08 PM #23
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05-09-2023 12:15 PM #24This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Not having first hand experience of Scottish football really isn’t close to being an insurmountable problem.
I don’t think a player and manager needing time to settle is the same thing. A manager can do a lot of homework and learn a lot about it whilst not being involved in the match, it’s very difficult/impossible for a player to replicate match game situations in non competitive training scenarios.
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05-09-2023 01:08 PM #25
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Apart from this I don't think it's any different and you're quite right that there's no reason to suspect anyone from outside can't handle it.
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05-09-2023 01:15 PM #26
The Scottish game is quick, not technically great, and pretty physical.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that a manager with no knowledge of Scottish football could struggle at first.
If you come here thinking you can bring in your own style from somewhere else, and you're stubborn with it, you're going to struggle.
It's important that we get someone who comes in and attempts to get the best out of what we have, not shoehorn players into a system they're not good at.
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05-09-2023 01:56 PM #27This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
In a nutshell.
The idea that the game isn't played differently in different places is an odd argument. Likewise the idea it is an insurmountable problem for even an average manager with a bit of common sense is equally odd.PM Awards General Poster of The Year 2015, 2016, 2017. Probably robbed in other years
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05-09-2023 02:13 PM #28
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If a manager doesnt understand these things they will be toast as we've seen.
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05-09-2023 02:27 PM #29
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I think it’s a statement chucked about by the football media in this country for so long to keep there pals on the merry go round it’s became fact, any professional will have done their homework on the club and league they are joining prior to any interview especially the ones uprooting there families from half way round the world.
If guys like SDG and Daz aren’t giving info to any new man about what to expect from teams like Livi or the senior pros in the squad aren’t giving the heads up we’re in bother surely falls into their remit as well
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05-09-2023 02:27 PM #30This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Secondly, a pedantic comment coming up - LJ played in Scotland.
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