Fan ownership

[Baldy Foghorn]

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Do you think Frank or Amit have the same influence as Rod Petrie?


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Would HSL rep have same influence then?

[big-mo]

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Well if we get to 20% and get an HSL rep on the board he will be able to ask for a vote and make it known how people voted.

All directors, exec and non-exec, have one vote, so any such proposal would have to be agreed by the majority of the board members. Having said that, i am sure that there are a lot of things discussed at board meeting that would be comercially sensative and should and would not be discussed out with the boardroom.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Well if we get to 20% and get an HSL rep on the board he will be able to ask for a vote and make it known how people voted.

Not sure that's allowed.

http://www.brodies.com/blog/corporat...areholder-see/

The starting point is the company’s articles of association. Normally, these do not give any special rights to shareholders to see company information. In fact, it’s usually the opposite. For example, the government’s model articles of association for private companies say:

“Except as provided by law or authorised by the directors or an ordinary resolution of the company, no person is entitled to inspect any of the company’s accounting or other records or documents merely by virtue of being a shareholder.”

Not sure our own M&A say anything different. And, as has been said, with good reason.

[hibee_nation]

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TBH, I'm not sure if Board meetings are confidential.

Shareholders can ask to see minutes of Board meetings, IIRC. However, it's not something I've ever seen done, other than in the voluntary sector.

There will be lots of things that will be confidential, gonna be hard not to spill the beans on the QT for whoever gets the gig.

[CropleyWasGod]

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There will be lots of things that will be confidential, gonna be hard not to spill the beans on the QT for whoever gets the gig.

I edited my original post, after taking legal advice

I would suggest that, if anyone did "spill the beans", they'd be liable for a red card.....

[Baldy Foghorn]

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There will be lots of things that will be confidential, gonna be hard not to spill the beans on the QT for whoever gets the gig.

Director's have to sign documents re confidentiality and anyone spilling the beans on the QT would be breaking the rules..........

[Ozyhibby]

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Would HSL rep have same influence then?

I would imagine the HSL board member would be somewhere in between.
The fans rep board members can be removed if Rod and STF wish it but the HSL board member could not. That may encourage them to work more closely with the HSL board member.


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[Baldy Foghorn]

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I would imagine the HSL board member would be somewhere in between.
The fans rep board members can be removed if Rod and STF wish it but the HSL board member could not. That may encourage them to work more closely with the HSL board member.


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Cool, suppose we won't know how it will work, until 20% is achieved

[CropleyWasGod]

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I would imagine the HSL board member would be somewhere in between.
The fans rep board members can be removed if Rod and STF wish it but the HSL board member could not. That may encourage them to work more closely with the HSL board member.


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That's not the case, though.

I've been reading a lot of the M&A's today. The only situation where an individual has the power to remove a director is where that person owns more than half of the company, and is a Board member.

That doesn't apply in our case.

[Andy74]

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I would imagine the HSL board member would be somewhere in between.
The fans rep board members can be removed if Rod and STF wish it but the HSL board member could not. That may encourage them to work more closely with the HSL board member.


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Sorry, but where are you getting this stuff from?

It is one thing to promote HSL but another just to be providing misleading information.

[Ozyhibby]

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That's not the case, though.

I've been reading a lot of the M&A's today. The only situation where an individual has the power to remove a director is where that person owns more than half of the company, and is a Board member.

That doesn't apply in our case. The removal of a director would require a Board decision.

You said yourself earlier that the reality of a situation can be different from how it is supposed to, did you not?


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[Ozyhibby]

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Sorry, but where are you getting this stuff from?

It is one thing to promote HSL but another just to be providing misleading information.

If I'm being misleading then it is entirely unintentional and I'm happy to be corrected by CWG as he is far more knowledgable about these things than I.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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You said yourself earlier that the reality of a situation can be different from how it is supposed to, did you not?


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If you mean earlier today, I don't think so.

If you mean earlier than that, no chance I'll remember

[lucky]

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The point that has been made repeatedly is that a single member has no more ability to influence HSL than a small shareholder does the Club.

Both are good ways to donate money to the Club, but let's not pretend that either gets the donor anything other than a very small vote.

Disagree, a shareholder holding £400 has little influence as its the amount of shares that counts. Under HSL it's 1 member 1 vote. So all 1800 have the same amount of power. But I do agree both put money into the club. But if Hibs fans are going to have a say in the running of our club then the collective of HSL is a better way forward

[Baldy Foghorn]

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Disagree, a shareholder holding £400 has little influence as its the amount of shares that counts. Under HSL it's 1 member 1 vote. So all 1800 have the same amount of power. But I do agree both put money into the club. But if Hibs fans are going to have a say in the running of our club then the collective of HSL is a better way forward

A shareholder who spent £400 has 1 vote too....?

[Ozyhibby]

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If you want to go to the AGM to shout 'Petrie Oot' you need to buy shares directly and not via HSL ;)

HSL can send reps to the AGM and shout it for you though.


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[Ozyhibby]

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If you mean earlier today, I don't think so.

If you mean earlier than that, no chance I'll remember

I did mean earlier today but now I'm not so sure. I can't find what I thought you said. I may have to lie down.


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[WhileTheChief..]

Does it matter if there is an HSL member on the board?

All this forensic analysis of voting rights / who can do what etc. just seems pointless.

I want to own a tiny wee bit of my club - I want absolutely nothing to do with running it.

We need strong leadership, something that LD appears to be delivering. Having 2 fans reps on the board is two too many already, we don't need a 3rd.

[OfficialHSL]

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I don't mind at all,

My issue is in the main with the argument being put forward that HSL is better option and the various posts saying that HSL provides a stronger voice.

Whether it is a better option or not is absolutely down to the individual and everyone can choose which is best for them. We all have a right to an opinion and the right to express it on here and while those who have said it's better will have their reasons I personally feel it is not IF you want to spend a set amount and you want to have a direct say in the running of the club. What I absolutely disagree with however is the claim that it provides a stronger voice. Pure and simply it doesn't unless you agree with the majority. I have bought shares direct and if I wanted to vote against something put forward at the AGM or a GM then I get a direct vote. If it goes to a poll then every one of my shares counts against the resolution, my voice is heard and if I am in the minority I lose. That's democracy . If I paid the same into HSL and I am in the minority in voting against, not only do I not get my vote counted against but all of my "shares" get voted in favour. I agree that's the rules that HSL members have signed up to and it is democratic in the running of HSL and on gathering how HSL should vote their shares BUT I say again if you do not hold the view of the majority then it is not a method for your voice to be heard.

I thought long and hard about getting involved in this thread as the last thing I want to do is put people off joining HSL. I do however feel strongly that some of the comments in favour of HSL over buying direct are misleading and it was only right to put the other side of the debate forward. IF HSL is the best option for you then please sign up today. I genuinely don't see this as HSL v Direct, they are not or certainly should not be in competition. It is and should always be about getting as much investment in the club as possible.

You are absolutely right to say that it is down to the individual supporter. What is important to one supporter may not be so important to another so every case is different. For example, for one supporter it may be that the one and only thing that is of interest is attending the Club's AGM. While HSL have been allocated some "observer" positions we could not absolutely guarantee a Member's attendance at the Club's AGM. In that case, for that supporter the "right" decision is to buy shares directly because that is appropriate for them. In another post we have tried to highlight what we have anticipated as key factors for supporters to help them make an informed choice. This debate is healthy because it teases out information that allows supporters to make an informed choice.
Regarding having a "voice" we suspect that there are two issues to consider. At the individual level this probably means a vote. In the HSL environment it is nice and simple. One member, one vote. An individuals' vote can only be out-voted by two or more fellow supporters. As we have said earlier this is simple democracy.The vote or votes in the minority are not wasted, or mute or unheard they are simply out-voted and therefore the motion is carried. In a shares environment the issue is similar. Those who have cast there vote and find themselves in the minority have still been heard but they have simply been out-voted. The slight difference in the shares environment is that the votes of several hundred supporters could be outvoted by one supporter. Now none of this will matter if you are a supporter who has no interest at all in voting on any issue. The second issue in terms of having a voice probably relates to having an influence on Club issues. HSL have a legally binding agreement that provides for Boardroom representation once a certain sum has been achieved. Again, this may be of no interest to some supporters but for some it may be a compelling point. This is why we would encourage each supporter to think about what is important to them and once they establish that, the decision is much more straight forward. In both cases the money goes to the Club and not existing shareholders.

HSL

[CropleyWasGod]

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Does it matter if there is an HSL member on the board?

All this forensic analysis of voting rights / who can do what etc. just seems pointless.

I want to own a tiny wee bit of my club - I want absolutely nothing to do with running it.

We need strong leadership, something that LD appears to be delivering. Having 2 fans reps on the board is two too many already, we don't need a 3rd.

There are many (I would suggest the majority) who agree with your point about running the club. I certainly don't want to be doing that, either.

If you feel so strongly about the number of fans on the Board, though, as a shareholder(or HSL member) you can voice your concerns and let the rest of the ownership discuss it.

[OfficialHSL]

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There are many (I would suggest the majority) who agree with your point about running the club. I certainly don't want to be doing that, either.

If you feel so strongly about the number of fans on the Board, though, as a shareholder(or HSL member) you can voice your concerns and let the rest of the ownership discuss it.

From a previous post:

As many supporters may be aware the Club launched a new share issue on 25^th February 2016. We are often asked what is the best way to invest in Hibs – buy shares directly or through HSL ?

Well the first and most obvious thing to say is not to consider any contribution as an “investment” in the normal sense of the word. This is essentially a donation to provide additional financial support to your Club. Having said this, we make no apology for pointing any supporter with a spare £225 firmly in the direction of HSL, and here is why :

1. Proof of Ownership

In both cases, supporters will be given a Certificate with their own name on it. A Share Certificate and a Membership Certificate are legal equivalents. When joining HSL with £225 a member will own a part of their Club in the same sense as a fellow supporter acquiring £225 worth of shares. An HSL Member is not in any sense an inferior owner. They have slightly different ownership rights but they are both owners. And in both cases supporters can pass on their part ownership of the Club to their family. HSL Members proudly display their Ownership Certificate on their walls at home or office or work place.

1. Voting Rights/Democracy

For many supporters, one of the reasons for becoming financially involved with their Club is to have some sort of say or influence in how their Club is run. A fundamental principle of HSL is our belief that every single supporter should have an equal voice. No matter who you are, your opinion is just as important as any other supporter. This means that when we have matters that we are required to vote upon each member has one vote. One member who has contributed £1000 cannot overrule the votes of four other members who have each contributed £225.
This was the very principles on which our great Club was established. More able members of the Community were able to assist those who were less able. Supporters buying shares however must be aware that one individual wealthy supporter who has many more shares can overrule the will of hundreds of other supporters, especially those who have bought the minimum of £200.

1. Supporter Representation

Apart from those occasions that require formal voting, the ongoing running of the Club falls to the Board of Directors. HSL has an exclusive formal agreement with the Club that entitles HSL to appoint a Director to the Board on a permanent basis once our shareholding and donations have reached a certain level. This means that there is a formal process for introducing the views of many ordinary Hibs fans. Supporters buying individual shares do not have this legal entitlement.

1. Accessible to All

The reality of a Football Club operating in the environment that we do is that we all have a responsibility for our Club. We cannot for ever look towards an individual to financially support our Club. HSL gives a realistic prospect to all fans to share this responsibility by offering the facility to pay a small amount each month. Not many supporters actually have a spare £200 which means that direct Shareholding is limited to the more affluent supporters. HSL gives all supporters the chance to own part of their Club and as stated earlier, owning it on an equal basis with our fellow supporters.

1. Loss of Voting Rights

One of the principle benefits of HSL is the certainty that none of our voting rights will ever be wasted. Whatever ownership stake we end up with 10%, 25% or 35% our entire voting block will always be exercised. This means that if we owned 26% of our Club and a contentious issue arose, even if only 1800 Members out of a 2000 Membership voted, our 26% voting rights would still be exercised. For those supporters owning, in the same example, the remaining 25% of the Club it is very unlikely that every single shareholder will cast a vote ( many have died, or have been passed on to those who don’t have an interest).


These are all the reasons why it feels great to be a part of HSL and an owner of our Club.

[CropleyWasGod]

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From a previous post:

As many supporters may be aware the Club launched a new share issue on 25^th February 2016. We are often asked what is the best way to invest in Hibs – buy shares directly or through HSL ?

Well the first and most obvious thing to say is not to consider any contribution as an “investment” in the normal sense of the word. This is essentially a donation to provide additional financial support to your Club. Having said this, we make no apology for pointing any supporter with a spare £225 firmly in the direction of HSL, and here is why :

1. Proof of Ownership

In both cases, supporters will be given a Certificate with their own name on it. A Share Certificate and a Membership Certificate are legal equivalents. When joining HSL with £225 a member will own a part of their Club in the same sense as a fellow supporter acquiring £225 worth of shares. An HSL Member is not in any sense an inferior owner. They have slightly different ownership rights but they are both owners. And in both cases supporters can pass on their part ownership of the Club to their family. HSL Members proudly display their Ownership Certificate on their walls at home or office or work place.

1. Voting Rights/Democracy

For many supporters, one of the reasons for becoming financially involved with their Club is to have some sort of say or influence in how their Club is run. A fundamental principle of HSL is our belief that every single supporter should have an equal voice. No matter who you are, your opinion is just as important as any other supporter. This means that when we have matters that we are required to vote upon each member has one vote. One member who has contributed £1000 cannot overrule the votes of four other members who have each contributed £225.
This was the very principles on which our great Club was established. More able members of the Community were able to assist those who were less able. Supporters buying shares however must be aware that one individual wealthy supporter who has many more shares can overrule the will of hundreds of other supporters, especially those who have bought the minimum of £200.

1. Supporter Representation

Apart from those occasions that require formal voting, the ongoing running of the Club falls to the Board of Directors. HSL has an exclusive formal agreement with the Club that entitles HSL to appoint a Director to the Board on a permanent basis once our shareholding and donations have reached a certain level. This means that there is a formal process for introducing the views of many ordinary Hibs fans. Supporters buying individual shares do not have this legal entitlement.

1. Accessible to All

The reality of a Football Club operating in the environment that we do is that we all have a responsibility for our Club. We cannot for ever look towards an individual to financially support our Club. HSL gives a realistic prospect to all fans to share this responsibility by offering the facility to pay a small amount each month. Not many supporters actually have a spare £200 which means that direct Shareholding is limited to the more affluent supporters. HSL gives all supporters the chance to own part of their Club and as stated earlier, owning it on an equal basis with our fellow supporters.

1. Loss of Voting Rights

One of the principle benefits of HSL is the certainty that none of our voting rights will ever be wasted. Whatever ownership stake we end up with 10%, 25% or 35% our entire voting block will always be exercised. This means that if we owned 26% of our Club and a contentious issue arose, even if only 1800 Members out of a 2000 Membership voted, our 26% voting rights would still be exercised. For those supporters owning, in the same example, the remaining 25% of the Club it is very unlikely that every single shareholder will cast a vote ( many have died, or have been passed on to those who don’t have an interest).


These are all the reasons why it feels great to be a part of HSL and an owner of our Club.

Not sure why you're quoting me. I was responding to another poster.

You already have my money.

[Andy74]

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From a previous post:

As many supporters may be aware the Club launched a new share issue on 25^th February 2016. We are often asked what is the best way to invest in Hibs – buy shares directly or through HSL ?

Well the first and most obvious thing to say is not to consider any contribution as an “investment” in the normal sense of the word. This is essentially a donation to provide additional financial support to your Club. Having said this, we make no apology for pointing any supporter with a spare £225 firmly in the direction of HSL, and here is why :

1. Proof of Ownership

In both cases, supporters will be given a Certificate with their own name on it. A Share Certificate and a Membership Certificate are legal equivalents. When joining HSL with £225 a member will own a part of their Club in the same sense as a fellow supporter acquiring £225 worth of shares. An HSL Member is not in any sense an inferior owner. They have slightly different ownership rights but they are both owners. And in both cases supporters can pass on their part ownership of the Club to their family. HSL Members proudly display their Ownership Certificate on their walls at home or office or work place.

1. Voting Rights/Democracy

For many supporters, one of the reasons for becoming financially involved with their Club is to have some sort of say or influence in how their Club is run. A fundamental principle of HSL is our belief that every single supporter should have an equal voice. No matter who you are, your opinion is just as important as any other supporter. This means that when we have matters that we are required to vote upon each member has one vote. One member who has contributed £1000 cannot overrule the votes of four other members who have each contributed £225.
This was the very principles on which our great Club was established. More able members of the Community were able to assist those who were less able. Supporters buying shares however must be aware that one individual wealthy supporter who has many more shares can overrule the will of hundreds of other supporters, especially those who have bought the minimum of £200.

1. Supporter Representation

Apart from those occasions that require formal voting, the ongoing running of the Club falls to the Board of Directors. HSL has an exclusive formal agreement with the Club that entitles HSL to appoint a Director to the Board on a permanent basis once our shareholding and donations have reached a certain level. This means that there is a formal process for introducing the views of many ordinary Hibs fans. Supporters buying individual shares do not have this legal entitlement.

1. Accessible to All

The reality of a Football Club operating in the environment that we do is that we all have a responsibility for our Club. We cannot for ever look towards an individual to financially support our Club. HSL gives a realistic prospect to all fans to share this responsibility by offering the facility to pay a small amount each month. Not many supporters actually have a spare £200 which means that direct Shareholding is limited to the more affluent supporters. HSL gives all supporters the chance to own part of their Club and as stated earlier, owning it on an equal basis with our fellow supporters.

1. Loss of Voting Rights

One of the principle benefits of HSL is the certainty that none of our voting rights will ever be wasted. Whatever ownership stake we end up with 10%, 25% or 35% our entire voting block will always be exercised. This means that if we owned 26% of our Club and a contentious issue arose, even if only 1800 Members out of a 2000 Membership voted, our 26% voting rights would still be exercised. For those supporters owning, in the same example, the remaining 25% of the Club it is very unlikely that every single shareholder will cast a vote ( many have died, or have been passed on to those who don’t have an interest).


These are all the reasons why it feels great to be a part of HSL and an owner of our Club.

I think some of this is again unhelpful.

HSL is a great avenue if you want to be part of a collective, and very importably, if you want your contribution to be ongoing. I think HSL should focus on the things that are unique to the scheme and which are really attractive.

The things you are saying about ownership and voting are quite misleading. I don't think there is a need for it - supporters should be encouraged to do what suits them best but each scheme is unique and that shouldn't be covered up in misinformation.

[lucky]

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A shareholder who spent £400 has 1 vote too....?

No a shareholders vote is based on the number of shares. HSL is 1 member 1 vote

[Andy74]

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No a shareholders vote is based on the number of shares. HSL is 1 member 1 vote

In HSL, not Hibs.

[Eyrie]

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Disagree, a shareholder holding £400 has little influence as its the amount of shares that counts. Under HSL it's 1 member 1 vote. So all 1800 have the same amount of power. But I do agree both put money into the club. But if Hibs fans are going to have a say in the running of our club then the collective of HSL is a better way forward

I'll disagree with your disagreement

I'm one member out of 1400 at the moment (and hopefully one out of 1800 or more in the future) so my ability to influence a HSL vote is minimal. It's effectively on a par with the level of influence that my £400 of shares has on a Hibs vote. That won't stop me exercising my right to vote in both cases, even when I expect the democratic outcome to disagree with me.

Now, when is Petrie up for re-election?

[Jack]

For something that was quite simple a couple of days ago it's all of a sudden looking very complicated.

If someone wants to be part of the collective join HSL.

If someone wants to be an individual and/or independent shareholder buy shares.

For the average punter I can't see the influence being much different either way.

If you want to be in with the nitty gritty buy shares.

If you want to contribute to the club on an on-going basis join HSL.

All for one and one for all and all that.

Either way my/our/your club benefits.

I'm in both camps.

If you can afford it ... be like Jack ... do both.