league reconstruction

[KeithTheHibby]

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SFA/ SPFL have shown often enough that all their rules are discretionary, depending on which teams are involved. IMO if the Huns look like they're in danger, "rules" will be ignored to avoid armageddon.

The member clubs have to vote on items such as league reconstruction so there is no chance the rules can be ignored to parachute sevco into the top flight.

[Hibbyradge]

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Rubbish idea. One team would have to miss out on a match every week for the second half of the season.

I don't think that one free week per team would present teams with much of a problem apart from on the last day of the season, if it went that far.

A 6 - 8 split might work.

The top 6 teams play each other home and away giving them a total of 36 games.

The bottom group have 14 games, giving them 40 games, making up for missing out on games against the better supported teams.

I just don't believe 16 teams is a runner. 30 games per club, plus 3 league cup? Every team already gets at least 1 league cup games so another 2 is not going to keep clubs afloat.

Remember those 2 games could be against East Stirling and Cowdenbeath.

Anyway, what will be will be. And it'll probably be pants!

[chippy]

An imaginative 16 team league based on the Belgian model but slightly modified. Offers exciting end of season games that means the top 4 have extra home and away ties to add to points total and decides the top 4 places. If we have a 5th euro place the 5th to 12th clubs play off in 2 sections the winners of each section play off for the final Euro slot or if we have only 4 euro places play off with the 4th team for the final Euro slot. The bottom 4 play additional,home and away to determine 2 relegation slots. This model is likely over time to often see 4 OF games and at times 4 Edinburgh/Dundee derbies. It's not that complicated. The 30 game problem is a myth it's easily solved.

[Hibbyradge]

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An imaginative 16 team league based on the Belgian model but slightly modified. Offers exciting end of season games that means the top 4 have extra home and away ties to add to points total and decides the top 4 places. If we have a 5th euro place the 5th to 12th clubs play off in 2 sections the winners of each section play off for the final Euro slot or if we have only 4 euro places play off with the 4th team for the final Euro slot. The bottom 4 play additional,home and away to determine 2 relegation slots. This model is likely over time to often see 4 OF games and at times 4 Edinburgh/Dundee derbies. It's not that complicated. The 30 game problem is a myth it's easily solved.

It is for me!

In theory, then, the team that finishes 12th after 30 games, could represent us in Europe with the team that finishes 4th, after 36 games, missing out?

[chippy]

You might question the fairness of the 12th team doing that but I don't think the concept is complicated. Keeps the season going though and answers some of the questions of meaningless games.

[banarc7062]

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Two leagues of 20 with four up four down and play offs might be quite interesting rather than ridiculous. Every club in Scotland with an outside chance of playing with the big boys.

Yes, I would like to see that in operation. An incentive to lower placed teams/top Juniors to strive for inclusion and do away with playing the same teams three/four times each season. GGTTH

[Nutmegged]

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An imaginative 16 team league based on the Belgian model but slightly modified. Offers exciting end of season games that means the top 4 have extra home and away ties to add to points total and decides the top 4 places. If we have a 5th euro place the 5th to 12th clubs play off in 2 sections the winners of each section play off for the final Euro slot or if we have only 4 euro places play off with the 4th team for the final Euro slot. The bottom 4 play additional,home and away to determine 2 relegation slots. This model is likely over time to often see 4 OF games and at times 4 Edinburgh/Dundee derbies. It's not that complicated. The 30 game problem is a myth it's easily solved.

Said this before, be creative

● 16 Team Top Tier
● split into 4 sections of 4 in decending order after 30 games
● each club plays each team in their section Home & Away (36games)
● Make sure every Section has a consequence
- Top Section top 3 qualify for Europe
- Second Section 5th place has a Eruo Play-Off vs 4th place
- Third Section 12th has a Relegation Play-Off with 3rd bottom of 4th Section
- Fourth Section bottom 2 Relegated, 3rd bottom Relegation Play-Off & top of the section (13th place) Survives.

Example

Team 1 Champs CL Qualifiers
Team 2 Runners Up EL Qualifier1
Team 3 Europa League Qualifier
Team 4 European Play-Off
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Team 5 European Play-Off
Team 6
Team 7
Team 8
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Team 9
Team 10
Team 11
Team 12 Relegation Play-Off
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Team 13
Team 14 Relegation Play-Off
Team 15 Relegated
Team 16 Relegated

[Salt N Sauzee]

Don't get why folk are still entertaining the idea of having a split in a new league. Terrible idea and should never of been implemented into our current Premier League. It's garbage!

[chippy]

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Don't get why folk are still entertaining the idea of having a split in a new league. Terrible idea and should never of been implemented into our current Premier League. It's garbage!

If your not in favour of a bigger league fair enough. But it appears the majority of fans want a bigger league. The powers that be claim it is too problematic due to 1) not enough games 2) loss of 4 OF games for tv rights 3) meaningless games for mid table teams. This addresses all of these points, keeps things boiling to the end of the season with high stakes games at/ near the end. The main additional benefits for me are a) more opportunities for Scots kids to get game time at the top level with more teams at that level and threats of relegation less for middle ranks ng teams. This will feed into a larger pool of players for the Scotland teams who have first team experience. b) I suspect an increase in transfer activity due to more availability at the top level but less reliance on lower league players from England c) if there is only 2 Edinburgh or Dundee derbies - more demand for tickets and from TV d) big crowds for all the games leading to the splits and thereafter for games that have importance. e) protects to some extent all the full time clubs
Nothing is perfect and I too dislike the current splits but models such as Belgiums, or the modified ones proposed by Nutmegged or me above do answer a lot of the critics. I think the idea of league cup section replacing lost league games is counter productive and shows up a 16 team leagues weaknesses. Let's stick to the league set up and get that right.
if you have a better solution let's hear it and how it would be better than above and the status quo?

[CallumLaidlaw]

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Don't get why folk are still entertaining the idea of having a split in a new league. Terrible idea and should never of been implemented into our current Premier League. It's garbage!

I actually don't mind the split. It gives teams something to aim for after 33 games, and then means all the "big teams" play each other for the european places and the same at the other end. My main problem is playing teams 4 times.

[Greenworld]

I have not spoke to any fan from any football team that does not want change. All want a bigger league.All are sick of the same old .The only people who seem hell bent on clinging to the same league set up is the ruling body in Glasgow.
Perhaps a fan voting poll could be set up for all fans of all clubs to vote on what they want.
The customer is always right yes?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[lucky]

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It is for me!

In theory, then, the team that finishes 12th after 30 games, could represent us in Europe with the team that finishes 4th, after 36 games, missing out?

Is that any different from the 4th placed team getting promoted through the play offs?

[Salt N Sauzee]

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If your not in favour of a bigger league fair enough. But it appears the majority of fans want a bigger league. The powers that be claim it is too problematic due to 1) not enough games 2) loss of 4 OF games for tv rights 3) meaningless games for mid table teams. This addresses all of these points, keeps things boiling to the end of the season with high stakes games at/ near the end. The main additional benefits for me are a) more opportunities for Scots kids to get game time at the top level with more teams at that level and threats of relegation less for middle ranks ng teams. This will feed into a larger pool of players for the Scotland teams who have first team experience. b) I suspect an increase in transfer activity due to more availability at the top level but less reliance on lower league players from England c) if there is only 2 Edinburgh or Dundee derbies - more demand for tickets and from TV d) big crowds for all the games leading to the splits and thereafter for games that have importance. e) protects to some extent all the full time clubs
Nothing is perfect and I too dislike the current splits but models such as Belgiums, or the modified ones proposed by Nutmegged or me above do answer a lot of the critics. I think the idea of league cup section replacing lost league games is counter productive and shows up a 16 team leagues weaknesses. Let's stick to the league set up and get that right.
if you have a better solution let's hear it and how it would be better than above and the status quo?

I'm all for a bigger league. I never said I wasn't!

I just hate the split at the end of the season, I think it's completely pointless.

I agree with the points you're making above. I think you may of misinterpreted mine. But I think a split in a bigger league would be even more pointless for those in Mid-table with nothing to play for.

[J-C]

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I'm all for a bigger league. I never said I wasn't!

I just hate the split at the end of the season, I think it's completely pointless.

I agree with the points you're making above. I think you may of misinterpreted mine. But I think a split in a bigger league would be even more pointless for those in Mid-table with nothing to play for.

I don't think a split will have pointless games, we have the play offs in place now which makes the end of season games more meaningful as no one wants that 2nd bottom place and the same goes for teams chasing that Europa spot. If it means getting a larger league then lets have the split, it's got to be better than the boredom of the Premiership and the Championship.

[GreenPJ]

Is there more chance of a non old firm club winning the league in a 30 game league structure than the current set-up, the answer has to be yes - the longer the season it is the more advantage is given to the clubs with the bigger resources. In addition by creating a split you remove some of the potentially easier games which further detracts from putting in a serious title challenge. For me move to a 16 team league, once home and away, you don't bother with a split you just hope that the shorter league creates a challenge and the fact that you only face clubs twice in the league will keep fans engaged a bit more.

This with a group stage in the league cup can make up the shortfall in game day revenue and hopefully improve the overall product.

[GreenCastle]

I'm also for around 16 teams.

Playing each other 3,4 or even 5 or 6 times a season ( due to cup games and replays etc) is nonsense.

Easter Road would be a busier place if we only played teams once at home a season. Plus I believe away supports would pick up also. Surely that's good for the game ?

I like the enjoyment of cup competitions and simple knockout.

Keep the Scottish and league cup. If you want more games you could even add a 3rd cup?

People talk about meaningless games. Let's face it Scottish football is struggling right now still and that has shown with the poor performances in Europe. Teams make a big deal about qualifying then are usually knocked out before the season starts. Even Celtic are struggling in the Europa league !!

Is there any other league in the world which hasn't been won by 2 teams in the last 31 years ?

The problem we have is we need to make it more competitive to win the league and change the structure so the old firm aren't dictating that they want 4 games against each other a year.

The final problem is the voting structure / this is still in place and any changes can't be made till a vote is approved.

[jdships]

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I'm also for around 16 teams.

Playing each other 3,4 or even 5 or 6 times a season ( due to cup games and replays etc) is nonsense.

Easter Road would be a busier place if we only played teams once at home a season. Plus I believe away supports would pick up also. Surely that's good for the game ?

I like the enjoyment of cup competitions and simple knockout.

Keep the Scottish and league cup. If you want more games you could even add a 3rd cup?

People talk about meaningless games. Let's face it Scottish football is struggling right now still and that has shown with the poor performances in Europe. Teams make a big deal about qualifying then are usually knocked out before the season starts. Even Celtic are struggling in the Europa league !!

Is there any other league in the world which hasn't been won by 2 teams in the last 31 years ?

The problem we have is we need to make it more competitive to win the league and change the structure so the old firm aren't dictating that they want 4 games against each other a year.

The final problem is the voting structure / this is still in place and any changes can't be made till a vote is approved.

That's it for me !!
keep it simple .
As it stands there are a h..l of a lot of meaningless games if attendances are anything to go by

[Jack]

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This No way will the SPFL allow their beloved Bigots to languish in the lower leagues for another season (and maybe a few more).

If the bigots go boobs up again and are allowed to rejoin at the lowest league level be prepared for a 40 team league!

[rabcp1]

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Is there more chance of a non old firm club winning the league in a 30 game league structure than the current set-up, the answer has to be yes - the longer the season it is the more advantage is given to the clubs with the bigger resources. In addition by creating a split you remove some of the potentially easier games which further detracts from putting in a serious title challenge. For me move to a 16 team league, once home and away, you don't bother with a split you just hope that the shorter league creates a challenge and the fact that you only face clubs twice in the league will keep fans engaged a bit more.

This with a group stage in the league cup can make up the shortfall in game day revenue and hopefully improve the overall product.

In an ideal world we would get a 16 team league with no splits but it's not going to happen, if the league loses out on 8 rounds off games we can expect an even smaller tv deal, this will then have a knock on effect on sponsorship as less games means less coverage for them, teams will lose 3 or 4 home gates and season ticket prices will need to drop to reflect this, I can't see league cup group games against cowdenbeath, Berwick rangers et al making up for this short fall in revenue. If we're to have a 16 team league it's going to have to come with a split as theres no chance clubs will vote in favour off such a loss in revenue!

[O'Rourke3]

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The member clubs have to vote on items such as league reconstruction so there is no chance the rules can be ignored to parachute sevco into the top flight.

Deals can be done though. For instance as part of the restructure we go back to all gates shared not home team keeps what it sells. Celtic need The Rangers up. The Rangers may need to go up to survive. Great way to get the wealth distribution back and fair.....

Sent via the bushes @ EM

[speedy_gonzales]

It's been said before, but in answer to less league games with a larger league, let's make the league cup home & away, right up to the final.
That'll keep the broadcasters happy,,,,maybe!

[GreenCastle]

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Deals can be done though. For instance as part of the restructure we go back to all gates shared not home team keeps what it sells. Celtic need The Rangers up. The Rangers may need to go up to survive. Great way to get the wealth distribution back and fair.....

Sent via the bushes @ EM

I wouldn't want shared gates.

We invested in a good stadium - and season tickets to help club.

This won't happen.

Not a fan of 2 legged cup games either. Though would the final be 2 leg ? That could make things interesting.

[stoneyburn hibs]

16 teams in each of the top two leagues.
3 up/3 down involving play offs for 2nd and 3rd bottom, 2nd top and 3rd top of each division respectively. Absolutely no split.

[Diclonius]

Scottish Premiership (18 teams)


1st placed team qualifies for Champions' League
2nd placed team qualifies for Europa League
Positions 3-6 enter a playoff for final Europa League place (3rd v 6th, 4th v 5th in two legged ties, then the two winners in a one off game at a neutral venue). If the Scottish Cup winner/runner up does not get a Europa League place, it is given to the highest placed team who did not win the playoff final.
Positions 17-18 automatically relegated. Positions 15 and 16 enter a two legged playoff against positions 4 and 3 respectively from the Championship - the winner of each plays in the top division next season.


Based on positions last year, this is how the division would look this season prior to games being played:


1. Celtic
2. Aberdeen
3. Inverness CT
4. St. Johnstone
5. Dundee Utd
6. Dundee
7. Hamilton
8. Partick
9. Ross County
10. Kilmarnock
11. Motherwell
12. St Mirren
13. Hearts
14. Hibernian
15. Rangers
16. Queen of the South
17. Falkirk
18. Raith Rovers


Scottish Championship (20 teams)


Positions 1 & 2 are automatically promoted. Positions 3 & 4 will play two legged playoff against positions 16 and 15 respectively in the Premiership - the winner will play in the top league next season.
Positions 18, 19 & 20 are automatically relegated. Position 17 will enter into a four-team playoff with the second placed teams in each of the three lower regional leagues (explained below).

Team in this division based on last year's placing would be:

1. Dumbarton
2. Livingston
3. Alloa
4. Cowdenbeath
5. Morton
6. Stranraer
7. Forfar
8. Brechin
9. Airdrieonians
10. Peterhead
11. Dunfermline
12. Ayr
13. Stenhousemuir
14. Stirling
15. Albion
16. Queen's Park
17. Arbroath
18. East Fife
19. Annan
20. Clyde

Scottish League Division One North/Central/South (20 teams each)

From here on, divisions are regionalised into three regions (probably based on council areas or some other form of determining) for northern (Perthshire and up), central belt (inc. Stirling and South Lanarkshire) and southern (Ayrshire & borders regions) teams.

Position 1 is promoted, whilst position 2 enters into a four-team playoff with the team finishing 17th in the Championship. The teams are drawn against each other in a two legged semi final, and the winners play each other to determine who will be in the Championship next season.
Positions 19-20 are automatically relegated. Positions 17 and 18 enter a two legged playoff against positions 4 and 3 respectively from the division below - the winner of each plays in this division next season.

Based on the current League Two and Highlands/Lowlands leagues, this would be the composition of each division next season.

North:
1. Elgin
2. Montrose
3. Brora
4. Turriff
5. Cove Rangers
6. Wick
7. Fraserburgh
8. Formartine
9. Inverurie
10. Nairn
11. Forres Mechanics
12. Buckie
13. Clachnacuddin
14. Deveronvale
15. Fort William
16. Keith
17. Lossiemouth
18. Huntly
19. Strathspey
20. Rothes

This represents every team in the Highland league - further clubs would have to come from the junior leagues.

Central:
1. East Stirling
2. Edinburgh City
3. East Kilbride
4. Spartans
5. Stirling Uni
6. Whitehill
7. BSC Glasgow
8. Edinburgh Uni
9. Preston Athletic
10. Cumbernauld Colts
11. Hutchison Vale
12. Leith Athletic
13. Tynecastle
14. Civil Service
15. Craigroyston
16. Heriot-Watt Uni
17. Ormiston

After this there are no more teams in any of the central council areas in the Lowland/East regions - junior clubs could form part of the pyramid here.

South:
1. Berwick
2. Gretna
3. Dalbeattie Star
4. Gala Fairydean
5. Vale of Leithen
6. Selkirk
7. Threave
8. Edusport Academy
9. St. Cuthbert
10. Crichton
11. Heston
12. Wigtown & Bladnoch
13. Newton Stewart
14. Mid-Annandale
15. Lochar
16. Coldstream
17. Upper Annandale
18. Creetown
19. Abbey Vale
20. Nithsdale

There are a number of teams not in this division that are members of the East of Scotland league or South of Scotland league, they could either be present in the division below or the teams could be mixed about.

The rest of the teams for lower divisions in below leagues would come from the junior leagues (should they wish to join the pyramid setup or remain independent) or new clubs.

[chippy]

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In an ideal world we would get a 16 team league with no splits but it's not going to happen, if the league loses out on 8 rounds off games we can expect an even smaller tv deal, this will then have a knock on effect on sponsorship as less games means less coverage for them, teams will lose 3 or 4 home gates and season ticket prices will need to drop to reflect this, I can't see league cup group games against cowdenbeath, Berwick rangers et al making up for this short fall in revenue. If we're to have a 16 team league it's going to have to come with a split as theres no chance clubs will vote in favour off such a loss in revenue!

Very good points here. I too would opt for a 16 or 18 or 20 team league with no splits. But it will never happen and the concept will never see the light of day. The power brokers seem quite happy with what we have. They will divide and rule us if someone can't come up with a reasonable compromise. Would the supporters of bigger leagues agree to splits as suggested above if that was the only way to get a bigger league or would they stick with the status quo? Maybe at some point a consensus could emerge among us and other clubs fans. But I think you have to offer the TV companies and unfortunately the old firm something they want such as a likely 4 OF games to get them to reform.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Deals can be done though. For instance as part of the restructure we go back to all gates shared not home team keeps what it sells. Celtic need The Rangers up. The Rangers may need to go up to survive. Great way to get the wealth distribution back and fair.....

Sent via the bushes @ EM

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I wouldn't want shared gates.

We invested in a good stadium - and season tickets to help club.

This won't happen.

Not a fan of 2 legged cup games either. Though would the final be 2 leg ? That could make things interesting.

Every time this is mentioned someone says about not wanting share gates. why not? I don't think anybody is advocating a 50/50 split. When the crowd is announced it is also announced how many away fans are there, so the away team gets that percentage of gate receipts after costs are deducted.

We have a decent number who travel, if you knew that your gate money went to your team maybe more would go to away games. Remember Hearts fans boycotting Easter Road? Hibs fan boycotting Tynie not anymore if you knew that 'they' were not profiting.

Simple really. Technology has moved on since the gates were split in the past.

[GreenCastle]

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Every time this is mentioned someone says about not wanting share gates. why not? I don't think anybody is advocating a 50/50 split. When the crowd is announced it is also announced how many away fans are there, so the away team gets that percentage of gate receipts after costs are deducted.

We have a decent number who travel, if you knew that your gate money went to your team maybe more would go to away games. Remember Hearts fans boycotting Easter Road? Hibs fan boycotting Tynie not anymore if you knew that 'they' were not profiting.

Simple really. Technology has moved on since the gates were split in the past.

I like the idea of rewarding aways fans.

I'm just not sure it could work though and be monitored - especially in the smaller league stadiums further down the divisions. Which league would this stop?

Are there any examples of sports or leagues in the world that currently do this ?

[Moulin Yarns]

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I like the idea of rewarding aways fans.

I'm just not sure it could work though and be monitored - especially in the smaller league stadiums further down the divisions. Which league would this stop?

Are there any examples of sports or leagues in the world that currently do this ?

In the dark and distant past....

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ably-1-2386654


A missed opportunity.

Totally different scenario, but it is sharing nonetheless

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-news...son-salary-cap


60:40 split in the NFL

http://basketball.about.com/od/nba-v...gues.htm#step2

Ice hockey is different with a pot where some give and others take.

At the end of the day, sharing gate receipts is more of a level playing field and I like my proposal as it works for all clubs.

[GreenCastle]

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In the dark and distant past....

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ably-1-2386654


A missed opportunity.

Totally different scenario, but it is sharing nonetheless

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-news...son-salary-cap


60:40 split in the NFL

http://basketball.about.com/od/nba-v...gues.htm#step2

Ice hockey is different with a pot where some give and others take.

At the end of the day, sharing gate receipts is more of a level playing field and I like my proposal as it works for all clubs.

Thanks for the links - some interesting articles.

I think we are in agreement about the completion needs to be levelled - basically Celtic / Rangers need to be brought down a size so the league is more competitive.

The problem we still have is the current voting structure for change - plus the Old Firm complain there is no competition while they are sucking the life dry of any competition with revenue and opposition players.

31 YEARS SINCE A NON OLD FIRM TEAM HAS WON THE MAIN LEAGUE! That's just not right!

[Keith_M]

18 teams, 17 home and 17 away games.

Group stage in the League Cup, guaranteeing three additional home and away games.


Nae split, everybody (except Rantic) happy.