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  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by judas View Post
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    The 'subsidy' is the provision of borrowed money that we have to pay back.

    The UK borrows to support its deficit - and that of Scotland, who like all union and most of Europe, runs at a loss.

    If I'm a hundred £ in debt and you are too, and you need £1 to pay for the annual interest. I could give it to you, but only by borrowing it from someone else. That doesn't mean I'm really any better of than you. I'm not sitting with a surplus in my bank account, I'm overdrawn like you.

    Interestingly though, this is all amidst an oil crisis. The picture will improve dramatically for Scotland when the op rises - and that seems likely (place your bets here).

    Is the economic benefit for Scotland big enough to warrant separation? Possibly.

    A bigger draw for me is the practical and democratic benefit. A focused government tailoring policy specifically to suit Scotlands needs and mandated by its own population, seems sensible.
    I'd add that while that's true, it's also true that the UK is providing a larger share of earned+borrowed money per head in Scotland than in most other areas of the UK. Unionists are happy to accept Barnett allocation despite the fact it is ripping off their fellow Britons.


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  3. #92
    Coaching Staff emerald green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby View Post
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    http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13175839.Sir_Ian_Wood__iScotland_will_run_out_of_o il_and_gas_in_35_years_if_new_sources_are_not_foun d/

    That was just one report. Iirc, it was also brought up several times during the live to debates.

    As for people believing it, I know for a fact several people did, my dad for one does not have access to the Internet do only had the TV and news papers to go by, all of which were pro Union. Why would he doubt what he was being told?
    Just back. "Hardly any oil left" now turns out to be running out in 35 years! That's not really the same, is it?

    Sorry, but the TV and newspapers were not all "pro-union". That's simply not true. All the TV debates for example had representatives of all the political parties present to put forward their arguments.

    Furthermore, I regularly saw (and heard on radio) news bulletins and other political programmes on all the major TV (and radio) channels, which carried interviews with members of all political parties, including the SNP, the Green Party, Labour Party, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, in the lengthy run-up to the referendum. Alex Salmond never seemed to be off the TV during that period.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY View Post
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    If they are getting on a bit chances are they will.
    Sorry, what was that?

    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    Stop talking sense for goodness sake.
    Thanks hibs0666. Keep up the fight. I'm butting out now though.

    I don't usually get involved in the political stuff because I just feel that some folk's views are so deeply held and entrenched you will never get them to see sense / change their views. It's like

  4. #93
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emerald green View Post
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    Just back. "Hardly any oil left" now turns out to be running out in 35 years! That's not really the same, is it?

    Sorry, but the TV and newspapers were not all "pro-union". That's simply not true. All the TV debates for example had representatives of all the political parties present to put forward their arguments.

    Furthermore, I regularly saw (and heard on radio) news bulletins and other political programmes on all the major TV (and radio) channels, which carried interviews with members of all political parties, including the SNP, the Green Party, Labour Party, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, in the lengthy run-up to the referendum. Alex Salmond never seemed to be off the TV during that period.



    Sorry, what was that?



    Thanks hibs0666. Keep up the fight. I'm butting out now though.

    I don't usually get involved in the political stuff because I just feel that some folk's views are so deeply held and entrenched you will never get them to see sense / change their views. It's like

  5. #94
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    It looks like we'll still be talking about Independence in 10 years time...unless we've become Independent by then

    future.jpg


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  6. #95
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    One current benefit is that because of the monumental cock up made by Westminster / Department of Health / NHS Trusts in England they've run up a £2bn deficit so Scotland should get more money as England tries to sort it out :-)

    Wales and NI should also benefit.

  7. #96
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    SCOTLAND CAN.

  8. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    That place you lift your witty infographics from is still struggling to get to grips with this whole 'UK' Parliament thing, huh?

  9. #98
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    That place you lift your witty infographics from is still struggling to get to grips with this whole 'UK' Parliament thing, huh?
    I guess we can blame No voters for us bombing Syria now though. They've replaced Rod Petrie in my blame game.
    I burnt my dinner tonight. Better Together? Aye, right!
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  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    That place you lift your witty infographics from is still struggling to get to grips with this whole 'UK' Parliament thing, huh?
    I think you're deliberately missing the point aren't you. The point is, of course is that with a yes vote, we wouldn't be in the UK parliament and the wishes of the Scottish voting public would have been respected.

  11. #100
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceinawhile View Post
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    I think you're deliberately missing the point aren't you. The point is, of course is that with a yes vote, we wouldn't be in the UK parliament and the wishes of the Scottish voting public would have been respected.
    Their wishes were respected when Scots voted to stay part of the UK.

    Are only 3% of Scots in favour of bombing Syria?

  12. #101
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    I guess we can blame No voters for us bombing Syria now though. They've replaced Rod Petrie in my blame game.
    I burnt my dinner tonight. Better Together? Aye, right!
    I know its been said many times but the Yes voters are concentrating their efforts on all the wrong places. This constant blame game only worsens their cause, instead of putting effort into what actually went wrong for them last September.

  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Their wishes were respected when Scots voted to stay part of the UK.

    Are only 3% of Scots in favour of bombing Syria?
    I don't know, I've not taken a poll. But 3% of our MPs are.

    If people really can't see why 'yessers' are pissy, then I can only assume they are being wilfully obtuse.

  14. #103
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    That place you lift your witty infographics from is still struggling to get to grips with this whole 'UK' Parliament thing, huh?
    And you keep coming back for more huh!


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  15. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Their wishes were respected when Scots voted to stay part of the UK.

    Are only 3% of Scots in favour of bombing Syria?
    I think a figure of 73% was quoted for the percentage of Scots against bombing.

    That's probably going to be hard for some to get their brains around but that means a decent chunk of no voters are against. I was a yes voter but the idea being floated that no voters can't oppose or criticise anything the government does because of the way they voted is nonsensical. If that was the case I, and thousands of others, would still blindly be voting Labour and the SNP would never have gained my/our vote and won power in Scotland in the 1st place.

  16. #105
    I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag... Sir David Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    That place you lift your witty infographics from is still struggling to get to grips with this whole 'UK' Parliament thing, huh?

  17. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Onceinawhile View Post
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    I think you're deliberately missing the point aren't you. The point is, of course is that with a yes vote, we wouldn't be in the UK parliament and the wishes of the Scottish voting public would have been respected.
    I think it's folk who bang on about Scotland's wishes not being respected in the UK parliament that spectacularly miss the point but hey ho.

    If Scotland had managed to be magically transported to a habitable planet in another galaxy, we wouldn't be in the UK parliament and the wishes of the Scottish voting public would have been respected. Logically, exactly the same argument.

  18. #107
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    Mostly I think the main point for me was people keeping their jobs who stood to loose them after we went independence and also that we managed to avoid financial armegdeon by keeping together!!

  19. #108
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasta_Hibs View Post
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    Mostly I think the main point for me was people keeping their jobs who stood to loose them after we went independence and also that we managed to avoid financial armegdeon by keeping together!!

    Ah yes, the old "vote yes and you will lose your job" myth. Can you provide concrete evidence of that?
    #Persevered
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  20. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Ah yes, the old "vote yes and you will lose your job" myth. Can you provide concrete evidence of that?
    There was quite a stack of business leaders came out advising on this at the time of the referendum. Also the oil pricing at $133 a barrel would have left us with a massive hole in public budget.

    Being in a union with our biggest trading partner on he planet - England makes sense, much like being a part of the EU helps UK business.

  21. #110
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasta_Hibs View Post
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    There was quite a stack of business leaders came out advising on this at the time of the referendum. Also the oil pricing at $133 a barrel would have left us with a massive hole in public budget.

    Being in a union with our biggest trading partner on he planet - England makes sense, much like being a part of the EU helps UK business.

    WHITEHALL has released details of David Cameron’s meetings ahead of last year’s independence referendum, showing talks with Scottish business leaders and senior media figures.


    Released under the UK Government’s transparency procedures, August 28, three weeks before polling day, was a particularly busy 24 hours in the Prime Minister’s diary.


    According to the record, he met Nick Robinson, the BBC’s then political editor, as well as Rona Fairhead from the BBC Trust for a “general discussion”.


    On the same day, Mr Cameron had talks with Gordon Smart of the Sun’s Scottish edition.


    He also had a “round-table” with Scottish business owners Castle Precision Engineers, Star Equestrian, Jack Perry, MacTaggart, Scott & Co. Ltd, Maxxium UK, Ian Bankier, the Celtic Chairman, and Malcolm Group.


    Then later, the PM had another general discussion with the CBI as well as CBI Scotland, Clydesdale and Yorkshire Banks, the Weir Group PLC, Standard Life, M Computer Technologies, ScottishPower and GPW.


    Three days later, Mr Cameron had another “general discussion” with Mr Robinson, Martin Ivens of the Sunday Times and the Economist.


    Two days before polling day, he also had a general talk with Paul Dacre, editor of the Daily Mail.


    Downing Street also revealed that the official code of conduct for Government Ministers has been updated to make clear that they must be open about their meetings with the Press.


    No 10 published the new code, which includes the new requirement that: "The Government will be open about its links with the media. All meetings with newspaper and other media proprietors, editors and senior executives will be published quarterly regardless of the purpose of the meeting."

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...ce_referendum/

  22. #111
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasta_Hibs View Post
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    Mostly I think the main point for me was people keeping their jobs who stood to loose them after we went independence and also that we managed to avoid financial armegdeon by keeping together!!
    What job losses would Indendence have caused?
    Financial Armageddon? The oil industry may be going through tough times but it's still a massive multi million pound industry that any country would want to have. After a period of normalisation tax receipts from the North Sea will recover.
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  23. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    What job losses would Indendence have caused?
    Financial Armageddon? The oil industry may be going through tough times but it's still a massive multi million pound industry that any country would want to have. After a period of normalisation tax receipts from the North Sea will recover.
    The drop in revenue would have been huge. SNP expected and planned for $133.

  24. #113
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasta_Hibs View Post
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    The drop in revenue would have been huge. SNP expected and planned for $133.
    Theres more to Scotland than just the oil industry. I'm not so sure the SNP gambled all on one industry although many of their supporters peddled a load of nonsense about secret oilfields etc. An Independent Scotland would have cost us something in the short term in my opinion but there is no way we would have faced 'armageddon'.
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  25. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Theres more to Scotland than just the oil industry. I'm not so sure the SNP gambled all on one industry although many of their supporters peddled a load of nonsense about secret oilfields etc. An Independent Scotland would have cost us something in the short term in my opinion but there is no way we would have faced 'armageddon'.
    Well im no financial wizkid but surely covering the hole in the budget would mean extra borrowing. Borrowing which once interest rates go up again would have left us in the deepest of doo doo?

  26. #115
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasta_Hibs View Post
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    Well im no financial wizkid but surely covering the hole in the budget would mean extra borrowing. Borrowing which once interest rates go up again would have left us in the deepest of doo doo?
    without going back and finding the independent assessments, I'm sure the budgeting for Independence was undertaken excluding oil revenue, and while a lot was made of the potential oil revenue, it was never seen as the mainstay of an Independent Scotland.

    Feel free to look for evidence to the contrary.
    #Persevered
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  27. #116
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    without going back and finding the independent assessments, I'm sure the budgeting for Independence was undertaken excluding oil revenue, and while a lot was made of the potential oil revenue, it was never seen as the mainstay of an Independent Scotland.

    Feel free to look for evidence to the contrary.
    That's how I remember it.
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  28. #117
    First Team Breakthrough Bob1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Nope. We are Better Together for the foreseeable future because 55% of our fellow Scots decided we are. As Yes supporters we shouldn't be asking why we are better together. It's just a way of laying the blame for any bad news at the feet of those who voted no and it will achieve nothing. We should be concentrating on telling people why we would be better as an independent Scotland. We lost the vote because we spent too much time talking to ourselves and we are still doing it. It's frustrating as hell. Until we accept that we lost not because people voted the 'wrong' way but because the Yes campaign was flawed we will still be years away from going it alone.
    Rant over.
    We lost the vote because of the shameful campaign the British media undertook during the referendum. People scaremongered into voting no, was unbelievable. The amount of people these days swayed by anything that comes out the TV would have been easy to see at least a 10% swing imo.

  29. #118
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob1875 View Post
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    We lost the vote because of the shameful campaign the British media undertook during the referendum. People scaremongered into voting no, was unbelievable. The amount of people these days swayed by anything that comes out the TV would have been easy to see at least a 10% swing imo.
    You lost the vote because you couldn't persuade people of your argument.

    It's a comfort zone to blame media influence but unfortunately it sends out a bad message. It implies you think the electorate you need to win over is weak-minded and malleable. If that's what you think of the Scottish people (and it showed in the aftermath) they're going to keep rejecting your dogmatic, fundamentalist schtick.

    Posts like yours simply encourage people to continue being in the No camp.
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  30. #119
    I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag... Sir David Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob1875 View Post
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    We lost the vote because of the shameful campaign the British media undertook during the referendum. People scaremongered into voting no, was unbelievable. The amount of people these days swayed by anything that comes out the TV would have been easy to see at least a 10% swing imo.
    I'm able to think for myself thanks very much.

    I can actually see some merit in Scotland being independent (although not under the leadership of the SNP) but it's comments like this one which makes me even happier that I voted "no" last year.

    55% of the Scottish public voted "no". Are all these people brain-dead morons, who need to read the tabloids and watch Sky News to have their minds made up for them?

  31. #120
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trig View Post
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    I'm able to think for myself thanks very much.

    I can actually see some merit in Scotland being independent (although not under the leadership of the SNP) but it's comments like this one which makes me even happier that I voted "no" last year.

    55% of the Scottish public voted "no". Are all these people brain-dead morons, who need to read the tabloids and watch Sky News to have their minds made up for them?
    Who would you see Scotland being independent under?


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