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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The Uk doesn't earn enough to pay for its current level of spending, that's why we're currently a trillion pounds in debt. The current level of Scottish spending includes its share of paying for things like Trident and high speed rail lines that wouldn't exist in an independent Scotland.
    Tell that to the former SNP policy advisor. He's the one that has confirmed that the SNP plans for independence are disingenuous.


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  3. #62
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    Tell that to the former SNP policy advisor. He's the one that has confirmed that the SNP plans for independence are disingenuous.
    On what terms did he part company with the SNP?

  4. #63
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    On what terms did he part company with the SNP?
    Don't know, but he has been slagging the SNP for over 2 years now.



    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/17/alex-salmond-aide-alex-bell-scottish
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    On what terms did he part company with the SNP?
    Dunno. In what way would that be material to the opinions he has expressed?

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    Dunno. In what way would that be material to the opinions he has expressed?
    You don't think it would be relevant?

  7. #66
    Coaching Staff JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    Dunno. In what way would that be material to the opinions he has expressed?
    An axe to grind? Personal vengeance at being sacked/let go? Working for someone else.

  8. #67
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    An axe to grind? Personal vengeance at being sacked/let go? Working for someone else.
    I'm sure I read that he's just started up a new magazine that he's looking to publicise.

    United we stand here....

  9. #68
    Incidentally, although he was and is heavily critical of the SNP/Yes campaign and the white paper. He didn't give up on independence, this from Aug 2014:

    If its equality that bothers you, then the British economic model is structurally incapable of adjusting without giving up on the City of London. If itís a welfare system that works, then look at the chaos of the UK reforms. If itís a tax system people respect, then you canít have the UK Treasuryís tolerance of havens.
    In short, if we are to become the people we could be, then it is impossible in the UK. That doesnít mean itís a sure thing in Scotland, simply that Yes is a start in the right direction

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    You don't think it would be relevant?
    It would be relevant in the same that that our collective experiences shape our opinions. I would rather see the mention of it as being an attempt at deflection i.e. shoot the messenger rather than listen.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    An axe to grind? Personal vengeance at being sacked/let go? Working for someone else.
    No axe to grind? No personal vengeance?

  12. #71
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    No axe to grind? No personal vengeance?
    I don't really get the point you're trying to make.

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    I don't really get the point you're trying to make.
    Aye but do you have an axe to grind likes?

  14. #73
    @hibs.net private member happiehibbie's Avatar
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    Politics ! It's simple to answer think about appearing in court in front of a jury. If that jury has an any doubt do you give a guilty or not guilty verdict. SNP had to many maybes aye maybes no so a no vote and stay together also the SNP economics did not add up and the economy was based on oil at around 113 a barrel this has dropped by 60% there is no argument they can use to support the losses thankfully being part of the U.K. We can share these losses. Peaks. And troughs we are a very small island we are better together


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  15. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by happiehibbie View Post
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    Politics ! It's simple to answer think about appearing in court in front of a jury. If that jury has an any doubt do you give a guilty or not guilty verdict. SNP had to many maybes aye maybes no so a no vote and stay together also the SNP economics did not add up and the economy was based on oil at around 113 a barrel this has dropped by 60% there is no argument they can use to support the losses thankfully being part of the U.K. We can share these losses. Peaks. And troughs we are a very small island we are better together


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    I can't make much sense of what you're trying to say but ... o/t moan approaching ...

    AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!

    We are a ******G HUGE ISLAND*, comfortably in the world's top 10 by size.

    * actually collection of islands plus part of Ireland.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Nope. We are Better Together for the foreseeable future because 55% of our fellow Scots decided we are. As Yes supporters we shouldn't be asking why we are better together. It's just a way of laying the blame for any bad news at the feet of those who voted no and it will achieve nothing. We should be concentrating on telling people why we would be better as an independent Scotland. We lost the vote because we spent too much time talking to ourselves and we are still doing it. It's frustrating as hell. Until we accept that we lost not because people voted the 'wrong' way but because the Yes campaign was flawed we will still be years away from going it alone.
    Rant over.
    Good post, and I would just like to add a couple of points.

    I believe that many (not all) of those who voted NO made up their minds to do so within two seconds of the moment when the referendum day was announced. These folk were never going to change their minds, still aren't, and probably never will. And please don't start insulting/blaming senior citizens for the result (not you personally I mean) as many separatists did after the referendum result was known. I know many who were extremely annoyed by that, and they won't forget it. Big mistake.

    These people were likely content with their lot (how dare they be!), resented the way the separation debate was intruding into their lives, objected to those who were pushing for separation noisily in town centres on Saturday afternoons, had business contacts throughout the UK & wanted to maintain them, were employed by UK businesses based outside Scotland & felt threatened by separation, and had friends & family across the UK.

    They were never going to be taken in by the opinions of disaffected people who wanted separation, at any cost, but were ignorant of its consequences.

  17. #76
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    There was always going to be roughly 3 groups of people approaching the referendum.

    Those who would vote yes under any circumstance (this isn't a dig).
    thise who would vote no under any circumstance (again not a dig).
    Those who were on the fence/didn't know/unsure/cautious/looking for guidance.

    given the vote was simply yes or no, where 'no' leaves each of us in a status quo (where each of us can reasonably expect life to be fairly similar to now/recent past, and predictable in regards to lifestyle, income, etc), the onus was always on the Yes campaign to convince the last group to vote 'yes'.

    The percentages of yes/no would indicate that not enough of the last group were convinced to do that. Marinello 59 has described this very eloquently.


    Since that day though, a proportion of the Yes campaign seem to look for opportunities to, almost point the finger and say 'see, told you so', when something crops happens that they don't like. For me, this only causes deeper fractures in the Scottish population, where a more positive way forward would be to re-engage with the No voters and look to positively capture the imagination, show why they believe Scotland will be better off independently.

    The Yes campaign won't change people's minds by blaming people who voted no for what comes to pass, they may change minds by demonstrating how Scotland could thrive independently.

  18. #77
    Coaching Staff emerald green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoneyburn hibs View Post
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    Apparently an Independent Scotland would have been a basket case because of the drop in oil prices.
    "We all know that in the present UK economic circumstances a fiscally autonomous Scotland would face a significant budget deficit. For Scotland to accept fiscal autonomy without inbuilt UK-wide fiscal balancing would be tantamount to economic suicide."

    The above is a quote from George Kerevan (SNP MP). It's not just about the oil price, although that's important.

  19. #78
    Coaching Staff emerald green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    For every £100 raised in revenue from the North Sea oil and the other fields Scotland currently receives way less than a tenner after all the reserved bits and bobs are paid for.

    An independent Scotland would receive £100.

    Tricky one!
    Very tricky indeed! Here's some figures:

    The UK government will receive less than £1 billion a year in oil revenues for at least the next five years. This compares to the Scottish Government's insistence that the revenues in 2016/17 alone would be between £6.8-£7.9 billion. Surely some mistake?

    The OBR now estimates £600 million for that year - a record breaking "mis-calculation" by the Scottish Government?

    The full fiscal autonomy which the SNP "demand" (although I don't believe they actually really want FFA - it's yet more posturing IMO) would also exchange the Barnett Formula for North Sea Oil revenues. How would this gap be filled?

    The Scottish Government needs to be honest with the country, and the Scottish people need to go into things with their eyes open and ask politicians - all of them, all parties - difficult questions, and not just swallow what they say like mugs.

    That said, there are some Nationalists where the end justifies the means. It's independence at all costs. The practical financial implications of independence for Scotland, and the Scottish people, comes second for them.

  20. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    We are better together because the case for independence is dead

    ďThe fact is a gap exists - Scotland does not earn enough to pay for its current level of spending. Once you accept that, you acknowledge that the SNPís model is broken.Ē

    I know, I know - more unionist propaganda, except that it comes from Slippery-as-a-Salmond's former head of policy.

    Given that Sturgeon will not commit to an indyref2, I guess she knows the truth of it. Thank goodness that 55% of us saw the truth of it too.
    Yes, but England, Wales and NI also don't earn enough to pay for their spending.

    UK budget deficit is over £90bn this year.

    The IFS says Scotlands budget deficit in the midst of an oil crisis would be £8bn. So in a sense, this is like a worst case scenario. Our pro rata share of the the current UK deficit would be circa £8bn and when UK deficit peaked at over £160bn (4 years ago) our pro rata share would have been around £13bn.

    There seems to be a perception that Scotland is subsidised. But actually ever country
    In the UK is.

  21. #80
    Coaching Staff HUTCHYHIBBY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emerald green View Post
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    I know many who were extremely annoyed by that, and they won't forget it.
    If they are getting on a bit chances are they will.

  22. #81
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    I can't make much sense of what you're trying to say but ... o/t moan approaching ...

    AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!

    We are a ******G HUGE ISLAND*, comfortably in the world's top 10 by size.

    * actually collection of islands plus part of Ireland.
    Yeah, this line always irritates. 'A small island'. The Isle of Mann is a small island. Rockall is a small island. "Great Britain" (as in the name of the island) is the 9th biggest in the world. The British Isles archipelago is the 4th such largest in the world. The 11th largest country in Europe, behind Italy.

    I always associate it with the wistful bleakery of Times' letter writers.

    Not a comment about the poster at all, but you hear it time and again. On the one hand, we're just a wee island, humble and too small to be subdivided. On the other we are a global "superpower" - which usually comes down to ethereal things like whether we get ourselves into international scrapes on a regular basis or how many naughts we have on a transient banking spreadsheet.

  23. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by emerald green View Post
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    Very tricky indeed! Here's some figures:

    The UK government will receive less than £1 billion a year in oil revenues for at least the next five years. This compares to the Scottish Government's insistence that the revenues in 2016/17 alone would be between £6.8-£7.9 billion. Surely some mistake?

    The OBR now estimates £600 million for that year - a record breaking "mis-calculation" by the Scottish Government?

    The full fiscal autonomy which the SNP "demand" (although I don't believe they actually really want FFA - it's yet more posturing IMO) would also exchange the Barnett Formula for North Sea Oil revenues. How would this gap be filled?

    The Scottish Government needs to be honest with the country, and the Scottish people need to go into things with their eyes open and ask politicians - all of them, all parties - difficult questions, and not just swallow what they say like mugs.

    That said, there are some Nationalists where the end justifies the means. It's independence at all costs. The practical financial implications of independence for Scotland, and the Scottish people, comes second for them.
    Stop talking sense for goodness sake.

  24. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    Yeah, this line always irritates. 'A small island'. The Isle of Mann is a small island. Rockall is a small island. "Great Britain" (as in the name of the island) is the 9th biggest in the world. The British Isles archipelago is the 4th such largest in the world. The 11th largest country in Europe, behind Italy.

    I always associate it with the wistful bleakery of Times' letter writers.

    Not a comment about the poster at all, but you hear it time and again. On the one hand, we're just a wee island, humble and too small to be subdivided. On the other we are a global "superpower" - which usually comes down to ethereal things like whether we get ourselves into international scrapes on a regular basis or how many naughts we have on a transient banking spreadsheet.
    Seeing as there is no viable economic argument being presented for an independent Scotland, the only case that (kind of) hangs together is a basic emotional one. As soon as it starts to get a bit more complex (like the future economic well-being of our people) the whole notion quickly unravels.

  25. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    Seeing as there is no viable economic argument being presented for an independent Scotland, the only case that (kind of) hangs together is a basic emotional one. As soon as it starts to get a bit more complex (like the future economic well-being of our people) the whole notion quickly unravels.
    If the limit of your ambition for Scotland is to remain a subsidised backwater, then fair enough. If it's really the loss of the British state that concerns you, then tough, you're on the wrong side of history (imo).

  26. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    If the limit of your ambition for Scotland is to remain a subsidised backwater, then fair enough. If it's really the loss of the British state that concerns you, then tough, you're on the wrong side of history (imo).
    Love it - I think that you've proven the valaidity of the basic emotional argument for independence.

    My ambition for Scotland is to be a land of opportunity for its citizens that cares for the most unfortunate. That can be best achieved with Scotland as part of the UK. As demonstrated by Salmond's policy bloke, this is not viable with any plans yet tabled for independence and the SNP is disingenuous to say otherwise.

    If you don't want to be a 'subsidised backwater' I'm assuming that you will be voting to exit the EU in the referendum. We can't be subsidised can we? And if we're a backwater in UK terms, goodness knows what we are in European terms.

    If you are not in favour of an EU exit Under what circumstances are European subsidies and acceptance of being a European backwater acceptable when they are patently not acceptable in the UK context?
    Last edited by hibs0666; 18-11-2015 at 05:42 PM.

  27. #86
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    If the limit of your ambition for Scotland is to remain a subsidised backwater, then fair enough. If it's really the loss of the British state that concerns you, then tough, you're on the wrong side of history (imo).
    I am afraid it is views like this that do the Yes campaign no good at all - you wrongly assume that anyone who does not think the same as you is somehow not wanting a prosperous Scotland, you think if you are not a Yes voter then you must be happy for Scotland to be a 'subsidised backwater' but have you ever considered that everyone that voted No wants Scotland to prosper and be a land of opportunity for everyone that lives here? I have not met one person who voted Yes or No that does not want a prosperous Scotland with opportunity.

    Interested on your view on the EU as posted by previous poster.

  28. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    If the limit of your ambition for Scotland is to remain a subsidised backwater, then fair enough. If it's really the loss of the British state that concerns you, then tough, you're on the wrong side of history (imo).
    The 'subsidy' is the provision of borrowed money that we have to pay back.

    The UK borrows to support its deficit - and that of Scotland, who like all union and most of Europe, runs at a loss.

    If I'm a hundred £ in debt and you are too, and you need £1 to pay for the annual interest. I could give it to you, but only by borrowing it from someone else. That doesn't mean I'm really any better of than you. I'm not sitting with a surplus in my bank account, I'm overdrawn like you.

    Interestingly though, this is all amidst an oil crisis. The picture will improve dramatically for Scotland when the op rises - and that seems likely (place your bets here).

    Is the economic benefit for Scotland big enough to warrant separation? Possibly.

    A bigger draw for me is the practical and democratic benefit. A focused government tailoring policy specifically to suit Scotlands needs and mandated by its own population, seems sensible.

  29. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    Love it - I think that you've proven the valaidity of the basic emotional argument for independence.

    My ambition for Scotland is to be a land of opportunity for its citizens that cares for the most unfortunate. That can be best achieved with Scotland as part of the UK. As demonstrated by Salmond's policy bloke, this is not viable with any plans yet tabled for independence and the SNP is disingenuous to say otherwise.
    If you're going to put in post after post lauding Alex Bell's (aka policy bloke) views, then it would help to read them from source rather than distilled via tabloid headline, here's a reminder:

    Quote Originally Posted by Policy Bloke
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    If its equality that bothers you, then the British economic model is structurally incapable of adjusting without giving up on the City of London. If itís a welfare system that works, then look at the chaos of the UK reforms. If itís a tax system people respect, then you canít have the UK Treasuryís tolerance of havens.
    In short, if we are to become the people we could be, then it is impossible in the UK. That doesnít mean itís a sure thing in Scotland, simply that Yes is a start in the right direction
    Maybe (shock horror) a raw calculation based on current attributed per capita spending under identical policy priorities is a tad simplistic. I agree with Policy Bloke that the SNP's policy needs work. For example, maintaining current level of defence spending (approx 5 times that of Ireland's) would be absolutely ludicrous for a small European country.

    If you don't want to be a 'subsidised backwater' I'm assuming that you will be voting to exit the EU in the referendum. We can't be subsidised can we? And if we're a backwater in UK terms, goodness knows what we are in European terms.

    If you are not in favour of an EU exit Under what circumstances are European subsidies and acceptance of being a European backwater acceptable when they are patently not acceptable in the UK context?
    I'm fairly ambivalent about EU exit as it happens and not sure to what extent you expect that Scotland is or would be subsidised? The UK is a net contributor after all. But top marks for deflection.

    At the moment, we don't even register in European terms, never mind being a backwater.

  30. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by judas View Post
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    The 'subsidy' is the provision of borrowed money that we have to pay back.

    The UK borrows to support its deficit - and that of Scotland, who like all union and most of Europe, runs at a loss.

    If I'm a hundred £ in debt and you are too, and you need £1 to pay for the annual interest. I could give it to you, but only by borrowing it from someone else. That doesn't mean I'm really any better of than you. I'm not sitting with a surplus in my bank account, I'm overdrawn like you.

    Interestingly though, this is all amidst an oil crisis. The picture will improve dramatically for Scotland when the op rises - and that seems likely (place your bets here).

    Is the economic benefit for Scotland big enough to warrant separation? Possibly.

    A bigger draw for me is the practical and democratic benefit. A focused government tailoring policy specifically to suit Scotlands needs and mandated by its own population, seems sensible.
    Me too.

  31. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I am afraid it is views like this that do the Yes campaign no good at all - you wrongly assume that anyone who does not think the same as you is somehow not wanting a prosperous Scotland, you think if you are not a Yes voter then you must be happy for Scotland to be a 'subsidised backwater' but have you ever considered that everyone that voted No wants Scotland to prosper and be a land of opportunity for everyone that lives here? I have not met one person who voted Yes or No that does not want a prosperous Scotland with opportunity.

    Interested on your view on the EU as posted by previous poster.
    on condescension.

    Some people that voted No would absolutely rather Scotland was a subsidised backwater as they view it as a safer option than independence. What if we **** it up altogether? LIkewise I can't be the only person who knows people who voted No as a safer option for their own personal situation (and btw, why shouldn't they, I've been through redundancies and job hunting, it's not pleasant). Risk versus reward at a national/regional* level and a personal level was a huge factor. Hardly groundbreaking news.


    * delete to personal taste.

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