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  1. #91
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Can someone please explain to me what the difference is between a political lie and a common garden lie? (Seriously).
    Apparently a political one is okay. How come?


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  3. #92
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Carmichael cleared of misleading the Orkney and Shetland voters.
    He should now do the decent thing though surely and leave under his own steam for showing himself to be dishonest.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  4. #93
    Not just sometimes but always Northernhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Carmichael cleared of misleading the Orkney and Shetland voters.
    He should now do the decent thing though surely and leave under his own steam for showing himself to be dishonest.
    By that reckoning so should Salmond for his "legal advice"?


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  5. #94
    Testimonial Due Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Can someone please explain to me what the difference is between a political lie and a common garden lie? (Seriously).
    Apparently a political one is okay. How come?
    The law is (and has always been) an ass. Electoral law in particular is archaic and, although a Law Commission review is under way to attempt to make it more usable, it's unlikely to be successful.

    There will always be slippery escape routes for those in positions of power and influence (or those who know where they bodies are buried).

    This whole episode just goes to show the distinct disconnect which still exists between career politicians and the average person. Politics is practised by politicians. The people elect politicians. Politicians lie to the people. There are no immediate consequences for the politicians. It can't be right and, until it's fixed, we will continue to be treated like muppets.

  6. #95
    Testimonial Due ACLeith's Avatar
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    O&S first voted Liberal in 1950 (Jo Grimmond), he won with 46.8% of the vote, from then until he stepped down in 1983 his share of the vote was always well above 50%, except on one occasion when it "slumped" to 47%.

    Jim Wallace took over and started off with 45.9% share and rose to 52% the last time he stood.

    Under Carmichael, he gradually rose to 62% in 2010 with a 10K majority, which dropped to 41% and 800 majority this year. And the decimation of his vote came after he was one of the prominent NO campaigners and where O&S recorded the highest NO majority in the country a few months earlier.

    So, the safest Liberal seat in the UK has become very marginal under his stewardship and it is certain that had he admitted his lies before the election he would have lost.

    My Orkney relatives who are politically minded, and not a member of any party, do not have a good word to say about him, he was only around when looking for votes and is a nasty piece of work. (Not that I have met him myself, I merely pass on what they say).

    He may have "won" today based on a narrow and literal interpretation of the current electoral law, but he is discredited and is a "dead man walking" in O&S. What a wonderful democracy we live in where someone can smear and lie like he did and still collect his MPs salary and expenses.

  7. #96
    @hibs.net private member cabbageandribs1875's Avatar
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    try and find an ounce of honour carmichael....resign, your constituents that voted for you don't like you anymore, bare-faced lying deceitful twisted piece of ****

  8. #97
    Testimonial Due ACLeith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875 View Post
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    try and find an ounce of honour carmichael....resign, your constituents that voted for you don't like you anymore, bare-faced lying deceitful twisted piece of ****
    That's really what my Orkney relatives were saying C&R, I was trying to politely paraphrase them, but you have summed up their views better than me

  9. #98
    @hibs.net private member BroxburnHibee's Avatar
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    He won't resign because the buffoon doesn't believe he has done anything wrong.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, vodka in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming, "WOO HOO what a ride!"

  10. #99
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northernhibee View Post
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    By that reckoning so should Salmond for his "legal advice"?
    Fair point, if every MP who was economical with the truth was to resign we would be facing a good few by-elections.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  11. #100
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACLeith View Post
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    O&S first voted Liberal in 1950 (Jo Grimmond), he won with 46.8% of the vote, from then until he stepped down in 1983 his share of the vote was always well above 50%, except on one occasion when it "slumped" to 47%.

    Jim Wallace took over and started off with 45.9% share and rose to 52% the last time he stood.

    Under Carmichael, he gradually rose to 62% in 2010 with a 10K majority, which dropped to 41% and 800 majority this year. And the decimation of his vote came after he was one of the prominent NO campaigners and where O&S recorded the highest NO majority in the country a few months earlier.

    So, the safest Liberal seat in the UK has become very marginal under his stewardship and it is certain that had he admitted his lies before the election he would have lost.

    My Orkney relatives who are politically minded, and not a member of any party, do not have a good word to say about him, he was only around when looking for votes and is a nasty piece of work. (Not that I have met him myself, I merely pass on what they say).

    He may have "won" today based on a narrow and literal interpretation of the current electoral law, but he is discredited and is a "dead man walking" in O&S. What a wonderful democracy we live in where someone can smear and lie like he did and still collect his MPs salary and expenses.
    To add insult to this dodgy decision Pinocchio is saying that the case against him was a smear campaign by the SNP. (O ma sides )
    I note that the quote seems to have been edited by the BBC within the past 15mins and the anti-lib part has been replaced with "....." in the middle of the quote.

    FWIW, I don't care which party this man stands for, he should be launched. Also I'm disappointed at the judges 'interpretation' of the Law.

  12. #101
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    To add insult to this dodgy decision Pinocchio is saying that the case against him was a smear campaign by the SNP. (O ma sides )
    I note that the quote seems to have been edited by the BBC within the past 15mins and the anti-lib part has been replaced with "....." in the middle of the quote.

    FWIW, I don't care which party this man stands for, he should be launched. Also I'm disappointed at the judges 'interpretation' of the Law.
    He said it was politically motivated by nationalists rather than saying it was an SNP smear campaign. Unfortunately one of the pursuers did reveal herself to be driven by political differences with Carmichael allowing him to make that claim.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  13. #102
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    He said it was politically motivated by nationalists rather than saying it was an SNP smear campaign. Unfortunately one of the pursuers did reveal herself to be driven by political differences with Carmichael allowing him to make that claim.
    Oh well that's okay then. He's off the hook.

    (If the Beeb hadn't edited the quote, I would have cut & pasted it, as it is, I had to paraphrase.
    Sorry if I misled the public. )
    Last edited by snooky; 09-12-2015 at 05:45 PM.

  14. #103
    Testimonial Due ACLeith's Avatar
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    He lost 2-1 but it needed 3-0 to unseat. Judges highly critical of him but drew back from saying he was a GASL

  15. #104
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Oh well that's okay then. He's off the hook.
    I didn't say that.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  16. #105
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    I didn't say that.
    I know, I did.

  17. #106
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Oh well that's okay then. He's off the hook.

    (If the Beeb hadn't edited the quote, I would have cut & pasted it, as it is, I had to paraphrase.
    Sorry if I misled the public. )
    I'm just going by what I heard him say.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  18. #107
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACLeith View Post
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    He lost 2-1 but it needed 3-0 to unseat. Judges highly critical of him but drew back from saying he was a GASL
    He still has Parliamentary Standards to face. It isn't over for him yet, suspension is possible.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  19. #108
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACLeith View Post
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    He lost 2-1 but it needed 3-0 to unseat. Judges highly critical of him but drew back from saying he was a GASL
    GASL?

    Gent And Serial Liar?
    Last edited by snooky; 09-12-2015 at 05:56 PM.

  20. #109
    Testimonial Due ACLeith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    GASL?

    Gent And Serial Liar?
    As per D C King "glib and shameless liar"

  21. #110
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    He said it was politically motivated by nationalists rather than saying it was an SNP smear campaign. Unfortunately one of the pursuers did reveal herself to be driven by political differences with Carmichael allowing him to make that claim.
    If it's the one I heard on the radio, Labour supporter and another is a Green party candidate, so not nationalist
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  22. #111
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    If it's the one I heard on the radio, Labour supporter and another is a Green party candidate, so not nationalist
    Didn't the Green Party support independence so I suppose they could be described as nationalist. I wouldn't but that's how I took him to mean it.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  23. #112
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    He won his court case and is now going for costs. Hopefully the 4 petitioners have resources to pay. This was politically motivated and those who can't accept the democratic decision of the people of O&S will now have to pay the price

  24. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
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    He won his court case and is now going for costs. Hopefully the 4 petitioners have resources to pay. This was politically motivated and those who can't accept the democratic decision of the people of O&S will now have to pay the price
    Your last sentence there. We are hearing a lot of that from the pro Carmichael side. How could any action under electoral law not be politically motivated? Given we live in a democracy, surely it shouldn't be seen as a bad thing? And are you saying that people should not exercise their rights to go to court if they think there's been an injustice?? (I am sure you don't?)

  25. #114
    Old Codger Hibstorian Jonnyboy's Avatar
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    When is a politicians lie not a lie? Never

    When is a lie ok? If it fails to breach the law as set out in The Representation of the Peoples Act 1983.

    Bizarre. Carmichael has a nerve saying he's glad he won the case. Makes Dave King look like an honest character
    This is how it feels

  26. #115
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Admin, can we rename this smiley from "fibber" to "Carmichael"

  27. #116
    Promising Youngster Lucky_Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACLeith View Post
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    O&S first voted Liberal in 1950 (Jo Grimmond), he won with 46.8% of the vote, from then until he stepped down in 1983 his share of the vote was always well above 50%, except on one occasion when it "slumped" to 47%.

    Jim Wallace took over and started off with 45.9% share and rose to 52% the last time he stood.

    Under Carmichael, he gradually rose to 62% in 2010 with a 10K majority, which dropped to 41% and 800 majority this year. And the decimation of his vote came after he was one of the prominent NO campaigners and where O&S recorded the highest NO majority in the country a few months earlier.

    So, the safest Liberal seat in the UK has become very marginal under his stewardship and it is certain that had he admitted his lies before the election he would have lost.

    My Orkney relatives who are politically minded, and not a member of any party, do not have a good word to say about him, he was only around when looking for votes and is a nasty piece of work. (Not that I have met him myself, I merely pass on what they say).

    He may have "won" today based on a narrow and literal interpretation of the current electoral law, but he is discredited and is a "dead man walking" in O&S. What a wonderful democracy we live in where someone can smear and lie like he did and still collect his MPs salary and expenses.
    So, by your own figures, Alistair Carmichael secured a percentage vote in 2010 which was a massive 10 points higher than two prominent former leaders of his party, and was one of only three Scottish MPs to withstand the nationalist landslide in 2015, yet has resided over failure has he? That's a very odd and clearly inaccurate analysis.

    I'm sure your Orkney relatives are the epitome of fairness and good judgement, but my experience is that he is anything but a "nasty piece of work". In fact, quite the opposite, he's a very decent, intelligent and hard working politician. And contrary to the claims by another poster, he is far from a "career politician" having worked in the hospitality industry and then as a lawyer for many years before his election to parliament.

    Alex Salmond was caught out for a far worse and potentially more far reaching lie in relation to legal advice on an independent Scotland's membership of the EU, yet no one has taken him to court, he continues to receive his former FM pension, MSP and MP salaries (despite missing a debate on war in Syria - and as his party's foreign affairs spokesman as well - in order to unveil a portrait of himself) and appear on shows like Have I Got News For You. Oh, and he genuinely is a nasty piece of work - ask any civil servant that's been humiliated by him or female that's felt uncomfortable in the presence of his wayward hands. It's a very warped nation that we live in when AS is heralded as some sort of King of Scotland, while AC is public enemy number one. If you, and others, can't admit to the fact that the action against AC has been politically motivated and about wiping out any opposing voices to Scottish nationalism then you're every bit as economical with the truth as he was with the cabinet office inquiry, for which you're all so upset about.

    Time to accept the court's ruling, give the guy a break and let him get on with the democratically vital job of representing the diminished liberal voice in Westminster, I say. He's paid more than enough of a price for having the temerity for being a leading voice in the campaign against a yes vote.

  28. #117
    Testimonial Due ACLeith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_Jim View Post
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    So, by your own figures, Alistair Carmichael secured a percentage vote in 2010 which was a massive 10 points higher than two prominent former leaders of his party, and was one of only three Scottish MPs to withstand the nationalist landslide in 2015, yet has resided over failure has he? That's a very odd and clearly inaccurate analysis.

    I'm sure your Orkney relatives are the epitome of fairness and good judgement, but my experience is that he is anything but a "nasty piece of work". In fact, quite the opposite, he's a very decent, intelligent and hard working politician. And contrary to the claims by another poster, he is far from a "career politician" having worked in the hospitality industry and then as a lawyer for many years before his election to parliament.

    Alex Salmond was caught out for a far worse and potentially more far reaching lie in relation to legal advice on an independent Scotland's membership of the EU, yet no one has taken him to court, he continues to receive his former FM pension, MSP and MP salaries (despite missing a debate on war in Syria - and as his party's foreign affairs spokesman as well - in order to unveil a portrait of himself) and appear on shows like Have I Got News For You. Oh, and he genuinely is a nasty piece of work - ask any civil servant that's been humiliated by him or female that's felt uncomfortable in the presence of his wayward hands. It's a very warped nation that we live in when AS is heralded as some sort of King of Scotland, while AC is public enemy number one. If you, and others, can't admit to the fact that the action against AC has been politically motivated and about wiping out any opposing voices to Scottish nationalism then you're every bit as economical with the truth as he was with the cabinet office inquiry, for which you're all so upset about.

    Time to accept the court's ruling, give the guy a break and let him get on with the democratically vital job of representing the diminished liberal voice in Westminster, I say. He's paid more than enough of a price for having the temerity for being a leading voice in the campaign against a yes vote.
    I could have used his other 2 election results (41.3% and 51.5%) but in the spirit of fairness which is the epitome of Hibs.net, I chose his 2 most recent. In fact, Jo Grimmond achieved higher or equal to 62% at 4 separate elections out of the 10 he contested.

    In one respect you are right in that he was a success last May, but seeing your majority cut from 10,000 to 800 is hardly something to brag about. There must be good reasons why so many NO voters deserted him in such a short space of time. Where did I use the word "failure"? I merely stated the facts, can't see how that is "odd" or inaccurate?

    I am delighted you regard my relatives in such a positive light, they are indeed fine people with varying political views.

    Of course the petitioners were politically motivated, they took steps to remove a sitting MP for admitting to lying, just as in the same way every time I put an X on a ballot paper I'm politically motivated. But it's a new slant to suggest that the reason they took their action was just pique at the referendum result, when no such thought of doing this happened for Mundell and Murray.

    And to save you wondering or asking, I am not a member of any party, I voted Liberal for most of my voting life as I believed in their principles, but stopped doing so when they deserted the part of the political spectrum I inhabit.

  29. #118
    Promising Youngster Lucky_Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACLeith View Post
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    I could have used his other 2 election results (41.3% and 51.5%) but in the spirit of fairness which is the epitome of Hibs.net, I chose his 2 most recent. In fact, Jo Grimmond achieved higher or equal to 62% at 4 separate elections out of the 10 he contested.

    In one respect you are right in that he was a success last May, but seeing your majority cut from 10,000 to 800 is hardly something to brag about. There must be good reasons why so many NO voters deserted him in such a short space of time. Where did I use the word "failure"? I merely stated the facts, can't see how that is "odd" or inaccurate?

    I am delighted you regard my relatives in such a positive light, they are indeed fine people with varying political views.

    Of course the petitioners were politically motivated, they took steps to remove a sitting MP for admitting to lying, just as in the same way every time I put an X on a ballot paper I'm politically motivated. But it's a new slant to suggest that the reason they took their action was just pique at the referendum result, when no such thought of doing this happened for Mundell and Murray.

    And to save you wondering or asking, I am not a member of any party, I voted Liberal for most of my voting life as I believed in their principles, but stopped doing so when they deserted the part of the political spectrum I inhabit.
    You clearly know a bit when it comes to past voting records in the constituency of O&S! I salute your "spirit of fairness" but in the context of your original post my response in terms of your figures quoted was entirely fair, and the accusation of your analysis offered being odd entirely justified. If you consider the majorities that sitting MPs like Michael Moore, Margaret Curran, Charlie Kennedy, Douglas Alexander et al were defending and lost in the context of an SNP landslide across Scotland then the only fair minded assessment of AC's result is that of success, regardless of a reduced majority or not. You didn't use the word 'failure' but I used it to surmise your argument. You were quite clearly proposing that he had resided over failure and but for his wicked, lying ways being hidden from the electorate until after the election would have befallen the same fate as almost ever other non-SNP candidate at the election.

    Perhaps I should have prefixed the words politically motivated with the word party, as you are taking such a wide interpretation of the phrase. Taking up your democratic right to vote - for whomever you so choose - at the ballot box is hardly comparable to setting out to raise tens of thousands of pounds in an attempt to have an MP removed from his seat. You can hardly argue -at least with a straight face - that the petitioners were purely motivated by pursuit of the truth and fairness, can you? Do you not in your heart of hearts think that the action was in any way motivated by the desire to see a non nationalist - and a prominent face of the no campaign at that - removed from office for nothing more than making a silly mistake. I hate to keep reverting to the example of Salmond, but if these very same self styled truth crusaders were just that then why on earth did they not choose to take legal action against him for lying to the electorate about having legal advice on iSco's EU membership? Could it be that AS and AC are held to entirely different standards in this brave new Scotland?

    Wow, it must be pretty special to be like you and not belong to any political party but instead inhabit part of a political spectrum. Whatever the deuce that means! I wasn't particularly interested in knowing if you're a member of a political party - but am of course fascinated to learn about your habitation of a political spectrum, so thanks for sharing. In the spirit of openness, I guess I'm duty bound to tell you that I am a member of a political party, and it's not the same one as AC represents. Unlike some, I can see past party politics, recognise an unfair and partisan attack on a good man and speak out in defence of him, regardless of either his or my own party allegiance.

  30. #119
    @hibs.net private member cabbageandribs1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACLeith View Post
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    That's really what my Orkney relatives were saying C&R, I was trying to politely paraphrase them, but you have summed up their views better than me

    give my regards to your good relations

  31. #120
    Testimonial Due ACLeith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_Jim View Post
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    You clearly know a bit when it comes to past voting records in the constituency of O&S! I salute your "spirit of fairness" but in the context of your original post my response in terms of your figures quoted was entirely fair, and the accusation of your analysis offered being odd entirely justified. If you consider the majorities that sitting MPs like Michael Moore, Margaret Curran, Charlie Kennedy, Douglas Alexander et al were defending and lost in the context of an SNP landslide across Scotland then the only fair minded assessment of AC's result is that of success, regardless of a reduced majority or not. You didn't use the word 'failure' but I used it to surmise your argument. You were quite clearly proposing that he had resided over failure and but for his wicked, lying ways being hidden from the electorate until after the election would have befallen the same fate as almost ever other non-SNP candidate at the election.

    Perhaps I should have prefixed the words politically motivated with the word party, as you are taking such a wide interpretation of the phrase. Taking up your democratic right to vote - for whomever you so choose - at the ballot box is hardly comparable to setting out to raise tens of thousands of pounds in an attempt to have an MP removed from his seat. You can hardly argue -at least with a straight face - that the petitioners were purely motivated by pursuit of the truth and fairness, can you? Do you not in your heart of hearts think that the action was in any way motivated by the desire to see a non nationalist - and a prominent face of the no campaign at that - removed from office for nothing more than making a silly mistake. I hate to keep reverting to the example of Salmond, but if these very same self styled truth crusaders were just that then why on earth did they not choose to take legal action against him for lying to the electorate about having legal advice on iSco's EU membership? Could it be that AS and AC are held to entirely different standards in this brave new Scotland?

    Wow, it must be pretty special to be like you and not belong to any political party but instead inhabit part of a political spectrum. Whatever the deuce that means! I wasn't particularly interested in knowing if you're a member of a political party - but am of course fascinated to learn about your habitation of a political spectrum, so thanks for sharing. In the spirit of openness, I guess I'm duty bound to tell you that I am a member of a political party, and it's not the same one as AC represents. Unlike some, I can see past party politics, recognise an unfair and partisan attack on a good man and speak out in defence of him, regardless of either his or my own party allegiance.
    I am sure I would enjoy discussing politics with you over a pint or 6! And it would be better than trying to summarise on here

    My final comments ..

    What made O&S different for me was that I expected AC to be comfortably returned, given the scale of the NO vote there, albeit with a reduced majority; for that not to happen I feel there must have been local reasons

    I do think he would have lost the extra votes needed to unseat him if the proof of his lying had come out before the election – but we could debate that till the cows come home without agreeing!

    All I understand of the petitioners is that none belonged to the SNP, as far as I am aware. How much of their action was caused by frustration and anger at having seen a self-confessed liar elected and how much motivated by what you say I simply don’t know.

    I don’t consider this to be a “silly mistake”, neither does Westminster as their investigation is still ongoing.

    I have ignored your references to AS, because this thread is not about him, even if he is/was as vile a person as you say, that does not excuse AC for his own conduct.

    I respect your strongly held views, so am disappointed that you play the man and not the ball by your comment “pretty special to be like you” . What I meant is that my own views have stayed pretty much the same for a very long time, in spite of getting long in the tooth now, I regarded myself way back then as being a bit left of centre, hence why I used to support the Liberal party but as the political spectrum (there goes that phrase again ) has moved well to the right in the last 20 years, especially with the Lib-Dems, I have deserted them.

    Anyway, I'm off to play some music with a friend, so have to leave it there LJ

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