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  1. #121
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    You've got to hand it to Pinnochio for gall....

    I dont come from a rich family. Weve not got lots of rich friends.

    And this was a highly politically motivated attempt to bully me out of Scottish politics.

    I hope that anybody who thinks its a good thing to have more than one voice in Scottish politics not just an independence voice might actually come forward and give me a bit of help.


    Oh the poor, poor man.


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  3. #122
    Gentleman of Leisure Doddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
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    When is a politicians lie not a lie? Never

    When is a lie ok? If it fails to breach the law as set out in The Representation of the Peoples Act 1983.

    Bizarre. Carmichael has a nerve saying he's glad he won the case. Makes Dave King look like an honest character
    Bear in mind, John, that the Representation of the Peoples Act 1983 was 'framed' by lawyers according to instructions given them by politicians, so that any concept of 'truth' or 'honesty' contained therein was bound to be somewhat unorthodox - some strange use of the words that we weren't previously aware of, as Douglas Adams might have said.

    For some reason George Orwell and 1984 pop into my mind. 'Truth' means 'lies', and 'honesty' means 'hypocrisy and double-dealing'.


    "Once one accepts that one has bear-hugged full-blown barking there is great comfort in the bright lights and noises of the wibble-wibble show ..."

  4. #123
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    "It adds little to the clarity or dignity of political life to have ministers or former ministers called liars, argues Brian Wilson" (in the Scotsman today)

    What do you suggest we call a liar then? A naughty boy? A slaver? (btw, no irony intended).
    The phrase "Defending the indefensible" comes to mind.

    The public expect (and should demand that) all MPs, ministers and former ministers uphold some form of integrity.
    It's only right that any caught lying, especially for self political gain, should be exposed and named as such - irrespective of party or position.

    Article here http://www.scotsman.com/news/brian-w...-lie-1-3973676

  5. #124
    Not just sometimes but always Northernhibee's Avatar
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    Amuses me how the nats are up in arms about this yet ignore how their party are no better. Hypocrisy.


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  6. #125
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
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    With a lot being written around Carrmichael and Thompson. Which one one misled the electorate more about their personality and suitability to be an MP. Does leaking of a document to smear a rival politicians triumph fleecing vulnerable people in house deals?

    For me, never surprised by the behavior of our elected representatives but it does seem that Carrimchaels sins seem a lot less than Thompson but there is not clamour for her to be deselected and Edinburgh West to have a by-election
    I wondered if this would come back to bite you on the erse. It wonder if she knows you're thoughts on the matter, or maybe her Lawyer will be in touch.

    https://t.co/1X74wSIRNs

  7. #126
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I wondered if this would come back to bite you on the erse. It wonder if she knows you're thoughts on the matter, or maybe her Lawyer will be in touch.

    https://t.co/1X74wSIRNs
    To be fair that BBC article (thought they weren't a reliable source?) quotes the Crown Office saying there was "absence of sufficient credible and reliable evidence", that doesn't marry up with Ms Thomsons claim that she has been "exonerated".
    The Crown can't find enough credible evidence that would lead to a prosecution. The fact that her legal "partner" has been struck off by the law society would suggest that there had been some impropriety on his behalf and by extension Ms Thomsons as it was her company that was involved with the "below market value" purchases of the complainants properties.

    Personally I don't think Ms Thomson has broken any law but her business model leaves a lot to be desired.

  8. #127
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    To be fair that BBC article (thought they weren't a reliable source?) quotes the Crown Office saying there was "absence of sufficient credible and reliable evidence", that doesn't marry up with Ms Thomsons claim that she has been "exonerated".
    The Crown can't find enough credible evidence that would lead to a prosecution. The fact that her legal "partner" has been struck off by the law society would suggest that there had been some impropriety on his behalf and by extension Ms Thomsons as it was her company that was involved with the "below market value" purchases of the complainants properties.

    Personally I don't think Ms Thomson has broken any law but her business model leaves a lot to be desired.
    The BBC article was the first that came up. I had to check some others though, but thought the Unionists on here would go to that link.

    I'd have thought having an "absence of sufficient credible, and reliable evidence", would have got you a cleared name, but maybe things have changed these days eh.

    We all know why the complainants got below market value for their properties. It goes on all the time in the UK.

  9. #128
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    We all know why the complainants got below market value for their properties. It goes on all the time in the UK.
    Perhaps 'we' do but I genuinely don't. One party was/is a cancer sufferer who could have used every penny. If this was just the business model a la McEwan Fraser in that they offer a low price in return for a fast sale, does that make it any better? M&F Property Solutions made a LOT of money in a short time, whilst this should generally be applauded in business it shouldn't when it's to the detriment of the vendor and and (in my opinion) certainly isn't the makings for my potential representative in the House of Commons.

  10. #129
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    The BBC article was the first that came up. I had to check some others though, but thought the Unionists on here would go to that link.

    I'd have thought having an "absence of sufficient credible, and reliable evidence", would have got you a cleared name, but maybe things have changed these days eh.

    We all know why the complainants got below market value for their properties. It goes on all the time in the UK.
    Cleared of criminal actvity, guilty of business practIces that your average Tory would be happy with. No doubt she will be welcomed back in to the 'progressive' SNP though if she wants.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
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    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  11. #130
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Cleared of criminal actvity, guilty of business practIces that your average Tory would be happy with. No doubt she will be welcomed back in to the 'progressive' SNP though if she wants.
    I wasn't aware of her being charged with any criminal activity, so how can you be cleared of something you've not done?

  12. #131
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I wasn't aware of her being charged with any criminal activity, so how can you be cleared of something you've not done?
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  13. #132
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Now, if you'd said, Investigation finds claims of fraud to be without foundation, and therefor no case to pursue, I could have given you one of these.


  14. #133
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Now, if you'd said, Investigation finds claims of fraud to be without foundation, and therefor no case to pursue, I could have given you one of these.

    It's dodgy though, isn't it?

    Youre surely not defending what went on.
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  15. #134
    Coaching Staff Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    FFS Ronnie, why would anyone bother to defend Michelle Thomson?

    I voted for her, but I wouldn't now, regardless if her business activities were legal or not.

    Not everyone in the SNP is good, you know.
    Buy nothing online unless you check for free cashback here first. I've already earned 1,789.68!



  16. #135
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    It's dodgy though, isn't it?

    Youre surely not defending what went on.
    Yes, and No, in that order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    FFS Ronnie, why would anyone bother to defend Michelle Thomson?

    I voted for her, but I wouldn't now, regardless if her business activities were legal or not.

    Not everyone in the SNP is good, you know.
    I don't think anyone's defending her, maybe the process though.

  17. #136
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I don't think anyone's defending her, maybe the process though.
    Nobody I know is trying to defend her. What galls is that there is as bad, or worse, sitting in both Parliaments and Local Authorities throughout Scotland who don't have the weight of the BBC and other MSM outlets hounding them. The SNP suspended the whip as soon as the Police investigation started (I wonder who instigated that?) while Ruth , Kezia and the guy in charge of the Scottish LibDems brazenly ignore the wrongdoers in their parties.

  18. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I wondered if this would come back to bite you on the erse. It wonder if she knows you're thoughts on the matter, or maybe her Lawyer will be in touch.

    https://t.co/1X74wSIRNs
    I wonder too, I'm sure the admins of this site might be too. I'd happy share my thoughts on her with her and her lawyer
    Last edited by lucky; 02-08-2017 at 12:11 PM.

  19. #138
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
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    I wonder too, I'm sure the admins of this site might be too. I'd happy share my thoughts on her with her and her lawyer


    I'm sure you would. You could maybe double up with Hannah on Friday.

  20. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I'm sure you would. You could maybe double up with Hannah on Friday.
    Look forward to it but Hannah the invisible is harder to spot

  21. #140
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    Nobody I know is trying to defend her. What galls is that there is as bad, or worse, sitting in both Parliaments and Local Authorities throughout Scotland who don't have the weight of the BBC and other MSM outlets hounding them. The SNP suspended the whip as soon as the Police investigation started (I wonder who instigated that?) while Ruth , Kezia and the guy in charge of the Scottish LibDems brazenly ignore the wrongdoers in their parties.
    The SNP MPs or MSP's are treated no better or worse than the members of any other Party by the media when they are suspected of wrongdoing. Throwing that line out does save you from having to face up to the fact that SNP politicans are just as likely to be guilty of dodgy practices as politicans of other parties though.
    Will you be happy to see her back under the SNP banner if she chooses to do that?
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  22. #141
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S View Post
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    I'd punt them both - neither is fit to be an MP.

    Carmichael far more heinous as he was caught with his fingers in the till, involved in a dubious underhand smear and it's cover up, in a blatant attempt to mislead the public.

    However, should the allegations against Thomson be proven, the SNP should declare her unfit to represent them and demand a by-election takes place with another candidate. If they are serious about making us believe in an independent Scotland, they have to make a break with the past and send out a signal that the corruption and cronyism of Westminster and previous dominant parties in Scotland won't be tolerated. It's no good looking at all the Con/Lab MP's who make money through dubious and underhand practices, the SNP have set themselves up to be above that and they must make us believe in them.

    Carmichael is more the case of a morally bankrupt man representing a corrupt and decaying system. Thomson is more about the SNP, and their tolerance (or otherwise) or this kind of person (allegedly) and their what place in the different kind of modern, clean democracy they are supposedly seeking to establish.
    I can go along with your assessment of the situation, DBS.

    Don't know that much about Thomson but I can't stand that Carmichael guy. He makes me squirm. What's worse, he was actually voted back in! and that says more about the electorate than the MP.

  23. #142
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    The difference is, Michelle Thompson didn't actually break any laws. You can argue about the morals of her actions until the next blue moon, but she didn't do anything that is punishable by law. She was still suspended by the party however.

    Alistair Carmichael on the other hand openly broke electoral laws and a case could have also been made for slander. Despite this, the justice system claimed that "it could not be proven that Carmichaels dishonesty was an attempt to mislead the electorate in his constituency". How they came to that conclusion is anybodies guess. Despite this, the judges still judged him to have openly lied to the electorate and urged him to stand down in order to trigger a by election. Something he chose not to do and something his party chose not to force him to do.

  24. #143
    @hibs.net private member Hibs Class's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    The difference is, Michelle Thompson didn't actually break any laws. You can argue about the morals of her actions until the next blue moon, but she didn't do anything that is punishable by law. She was still suspended by the party however.

    Alistair Carmichael on the other hand openly broke electoral laws and a case could have also been made for slander. Despite this, the justice system claimed that "it could not be proven that Carmichaels dishonesty was an attempt to mislead the electorate in his constituency". How they came to that conclusion is anybodies guess. Despite this, the judges still judged him to have openly lied to the electorate and urged him to stand down in order to trigger a by election. Something he chose not to do and something his party chose not to force him to do.
    Michelle Thomson is innocent in law as she hasn't been convicted of anything. She is not being tried because of insufficient evidence. That doesn't mean that you can say with certainty that she has not broken any laws.
    ​#PERSEVERED


  25. #144
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    Neither are guilty of breaking any laws. But Carmichael got caught spinning untruths about the FM. Thompson and her business partners were involved in making large sums of money from vulnerable people legally. Carmichael has since been reelected and Thompson deselected before her party lost the seat to the Lib Dems. Clearly their parties and constituents have decided who was fit to be an MP

  26. #145
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    The difference is, Michelle Thompson didn't actually break any laws. You can argue about the morals of her actions until the next blue moon, but she didn't do anything that is punishable by law. She was still suspended by the party however.

    Alistair Carmichael on the other hand openly broke electoral laws and a case could have also been made for slander. Despite this, the justice system claimed that "it could not be proven that Carmichaels dishonesty was an attempt to mislead the electorate in his constituency". How they came to that conclusion is anybodies guess. Despite this, the judges still judged him to have openly lied to the electorate and urged him to stand down in order to trigger a by election. Something he chose not to do and something his party chose not to force him to do.
    This might help you:-

    The letter of the law is that the false statement must be "in relation to the candidate's personal character or conduct".
    The petitioners claimed that the fact Mr Carmichael was caught out in a lie made it a matter of personal conduct; who would vote for a liar?
    Lady Paton and Lord Matthews were not convinced. Or at least, not "beyond reasonable doubt".
    In a way it was the specific nature of Mr Carmichael's denial that saved him.
    The judges laid out an example. Had Mr Carmichael said that he would never leak a confidential memo, that he would not stoop to such tactics no matter how helpful it might be to his party, then that would have been a matter of personal conduct.
    He would have been "falsely holding himself out as being of such a standard of honesty, honour, trustworthiness and integrity".
    However, Lady Paton concluded, he "did not make such an express statement about his personal character or conduct". She was "not persuaded" that the false statement was in relation to anything other than "a political machination".
    (from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-35050691)

    And, in Scotland, there could be no case for slander.

  27. #146
    Testimonial Due Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    This might help you:-

    The letter of the law is that the false statement must be "in relation to the candidate's personal character or conduct".
    The petitioners claimed that the fact Mr Carmichael was caught out in a lie made it a matter of personal conduct; who would vote for a liar?
    Lady Paton and Lord Matthews were not convinced. Or at least, not "beyond reasonable doubt".
    In a way it was the specific nature of Mr Carmichael's denial that saved him.
    The judges laid out an example. Had Mr Carmichael said that he would never leak a confidential memo, that he would not stoop to such tactics no matter how helpful it might be to his party, then that would have been a matter of personal conduct.
    He would have been "falsely holding himself out as being of such a standard of honesty, honour, trustworthiness and integrity".
    However, Lady Paton concluded, he "did not make such an express statement about his personal character or conduct". She was "not persuaded" that the false statement was in relation to anything other than "a political machination".
    (from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-35050691)

    And, in Scotland, there could be no case for slander.
    Or, to summarise, it is to be expected that politicians will lie so, as long as they have not expressly claimed to be entirely honest during their campaign, it isn't a crime.

    As an aside, had AC done what he did immediately prior to an election, rather than a referendum, it's likely he would have been found guilty.

  28. #147
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    The SNP MPs or MSP's are treated no better or worse than the members of any other Party by the media when they are suspected of wrongdoing. Throwing that line out does save you from having to face up to the fact that SNP politicans are just as likely to be guilty of dodgy practices as politicans of other parties though.
    Will you be happy to see her back under the SNP banner if she chooses to do that?
    Really? You'll need to point me in the direction of this fair and balanced UK media outlet as I can't find a trace of it, at least online. Maybe they print special versions.

  29. #148
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    Really? You'll need to point me in the direction of this fair and balanced UK media outlet as I can't find a trace of it, at least online. Maybe they print special versions.
    The media are in no way even handed in their reporting . Every newspaper pushes it's own individual agenda and the SNP have comparatively few friends amongst the national press. An independent Scotland would mean less circulation for most national papers.

  30. #149
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    Really? You'll need to point me in the direction of this fair and balanced UK media outlet as I can't find a trace of it, at least online. Maybe they print special versions.
    The recent shenanigans re the rail spat, where Labour put out a false press statement, it's not checked, but run in some national newspapers, and then regurgitated by the Labour Leader in Scotland, when they knew it to be false.

    Fair and Balanced...Aye right.

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