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  1. #91
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    Getting back to the Corbyn fella

    It will be very interesting how things bed in. There needn't necessarily be a coup but there is obviously going to be a lot of tension and intrigue in the coming months. Ultimately, though, i don't think a Corbyn-led Labour has a chance of winning the next general election. There are obvious parallels with 1983, and the left was more organised and active than it is now.


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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Glory Lurker View Post
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    Getting back to the Corbyn fella

    It will be very interesting how things bed in. There needn't necessarily be a coup but there is obviously going to be a lot of tension and intrigue in the coming months. Ultimately, though, i don't think a Corbyn-led Labour has a chance of winning the next general election. There are obvious parallels with 1983, and the left was more organised and active than it is now.
    I agree it will be an interesting watch to see how it beds in. It's difficult to see how he can succeed though as the press will be all over him, misrepresenting him and hounding him from the start. It's happened to 3 or 4 party leaders in recent times and none have really got past it.

    For me the resignations that poured in after the result are in themselves no bad thing. Looking at the dismal performance of the other 3 candidates it's a pretty clear indication that the wider membership have rejected the Blairities and Brownites of the past couple of decades who were the choice of the parliamentary party. Of course the shady background manoeuvres that will already be taking place to ensure Corbyn fails are another matter.
    I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women,. Suddenly, uncritically giving no thought to the pain it could bring. - Nick Hornby

  4. #93
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Great result for Corbyn, let's hope he can bring his party together after the election. Interesting times ahead on the future of Trident, and whether he works alongside the SNP on reforming the Lords.

    No more Labour Lords Jeremy

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glory Lurker View Post
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    Getting back to the Corbyn fella

    It will be very interesting how things bed in. There needn't necessarily be a coup but there is obviously going to be a lot of tension and intrigue in the coming months. Ultimately, though, i don't think a Corbyn-led Labour has a chance of winning the next general election. There are obvious parallels with 1983, and the left was more organised and active than it is now.
    I'm interested to know why so many people are desperate to compare now with 1983, yet fail to compare Corbyn with Clement Attlee, an equally unasumming character who became leader by chance in 1935, was a poor public speaker (unlike Foot), and was constantly being intrigued against by fellow Labour MPs, including Peter Mandleson's grandad even after he had one the 1945 election. And his programme of nationalisation and deficit spending was way beyond anything Corbyn now talks about. Of course there was one important difference between Attlee and Foot's experience - the latter suffered a disastrous split from the right when the Gang of Four formed the SDP.

  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomheartfather View Post
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    I'm interested to know why so many people are desperate to compare now with 1983, yet fail to compare Corbyn with Clement Attlee, an equally unasumming character who became leader by chance in 1935, was a poor public speaker (unlike Foot), and was constantly being intrigued against by fellow Labour MPs, including Peter Mandleson's grandad even after he had one the 1945 election. And his programme of nationalisation and deficit spending was way beyond anything Corbyn now talks about. Of course there was one important difference between Attlee and Foot's experience - the latter suffered a disastrous split from the right when the Gang of Four formed the SDP.
    And Atlee's government was removed after one term by a Conservative one that lasted 3 terms and in 1955 secured more than 50% of the vote in Scotland.

  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomheartfather View Post
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    I'm interested to know why so many people are desperate to compare now with 1983, yet fail to compare Corbyn with Clement Attlee, an equally unasumming character who became leader by chance in 1935, was a poor public speaker (unlike Foot), and was constantly being intrigued against by fellow Labour MPs, including Peter Mandleson's grandad even after he had one the 1945 election. And his programme of nationalisation and deficit spending was way beyond anything Corbyn now talks about. Of course there was one important difference between Attlee and Foot's experience - the latter suffered a disastrous split from the right when the Gang of Four formed the SDP.
    That's a fair point. I think though, although Atlee sought more radical change he did so when the electorate was galvanised by the prospect of it happening. Corbyn is seeking less, but the circumstances are totally different today and the electorate is - probably imho - not nearly as open to change. He's less radical but so are the people, significantly so.

    None of this is why I compared to 1983. That was just me being lazy and not thinking about Atlee!

  8. #97
    @hibs.net private member HiBremian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glory Lurker View Post
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    That's a fair point. I think though, although Atlee sought more radical change he did so when the electorate was galvanised by the prospect of it happening. Corbyn is seeking less, but the circumstances are totally different today and the electorate is - probably imho - not nearly as open to change. He's less radical but so are the people, significantly so.

    None of this is why I compared to 1983. That was just me being lazy and not thinking about Atlee!
    Ye, could be right about the electorate, but stranger things have happened...

  9. #98
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    It seems that Corbyn wants to leave the EU. Did he mention this when standing for Labour leadership?
    Not according to the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34218294
    Last edited by grunt; 13-09-2015 at 08:59 PM.

  10. #99
    @hibs.net private member HiBremian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    It seems that Corbyn wants to leave the EU. Did he mention this when standing for Labour leadership?
    He's neither a strong pro- or anti-

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...y-corbyn-think

  11. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomheartfather View Post
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    Thank you for this link. It seems that Umunna has resigned because he doesn't agree with Corbyn's views on Europe.
    I rather liked Umunna.

  12. #101
    @hibs.net private member HiBremian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    [/URL]

    Thank you for this link. It seems that Umunna has resigned because he doesn't agree with Corbyn's views on Europe.
    I rather liked Umunna.
    It's interesting looking on at the UK "Europe debate" from over here in Germany. There's a euro-sceptic right-wing party here of course, the AfD, but as AFAIK they only call for getting out of the euro, not the EU. But the Europe debate here does cover some issues raised by Corbyn, with the Greens, left SPD and Die Linke wanting a Europe more solidarity-oriented. But the difference is they want to stay in the EU to try to build it. The UK debate seems very quickly to become an in-out one, a bit like the denial of Devo Max in last year's indyref. Corbyn would probably do well to do a link-up with fellow lefties around Europe if he wants to stress his pro-EU credentials, without cosying up to the pro-EU tories as per Scottish Labour last year.

  13. #102
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomheartfather View Post
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    It's interesting looking on at the UK "Europe debate" from over here in Germany. There's a euro-sceptic right-wing party here of course, the AfD, but as AFAIK they only call for getting out of the euro, not the EU. But the Europe debate here does cover some issues raised by Corbyn, with the Greens, left SPD and Die Linke wanting a Europe more solidarity-oriented. But the difference is they want to stay in the EU to try to build it. The UK debate seems very quickly to become an in-out one, a bit like the denial of Devo Max in last year's indyref. Corbyn would probably do well to do a link-up with fellow lefties around Europe if he wants to stress his pro-EU credentials, without cosying up to the pro-EU tories as per Scottish Labour last year.
    I've seen on Twitter that Corbyn wants to hold a conference in London of all the anti austerity campaigns from across Europe. It would be a good idea to hold out the hand of friendship to the SNP.

    The shadow cabinet is slowly coming together.

    Burnham to Home
    Heidi Alexander to Health
    Lord Falconer to Justice
    Hillary Benn to Foreign

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I've seen on Twitter that Corbyn wants to hold a conference in London of all the anti austerity campaigns from across Europe. It would be a good idea to hold out the hand of friendship to the SNP.

    The shadow cabinet is slowly coming together.

    Burnham to Home
    Heidi Alexander to Health
    Lord Falconer to Justice
    Hillary Benn to Foreign
    Thanks for that info - was just looking around the net for any news

  15. #104
    Coaching Staff The Governor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    It's difficult to have a go at the SNP for being unprogressive/progressive when the Scottish Government is little more than a spending department of the UK government.

    Anyway back to Corbyn. I think he and his team have had a good look at how the SNP have achieved what they have and followed.

    One of the early things I noticed with the SNP was their willingness to listen and take policies forward as a collaboration. Indeed in some areas projects handed over to those on the front line who would eventually implement those policies.

    An observation of Labour was the dictatorial way they went about implementing policy.

    This was seen again during this election, the other candidates and big guns being rolled out telling members what to do and in a referendum type way threatening doom and gloom.

    In comparison most of the time I saw Corbyn he was patiently listening to what people had to say before he spoke and replied to that rather than to some prescriptive text someone else had prepared.
    That's not the SNP I recognise. Sorry, I don't want to be rude but it's not.

    The SNP are the most centralising party I think I've seen in action. Not one SNP MP, MSP or councillor goes off message - ever. When a big event happens you will notice one SNP MP Tweets something and within minutes another has Tweeted something with the wording slightly tweaked. Then another, maybe this time same words but different order.

    Don't get me wrong, the SNP is a formidable campaigning machine, and it's really quite impressive to the point where the all the other parties have a lot to learn from their campaigning systems but saying that SNP people don't stick to some prescripted text is bang wrong. It's the only thing they do.

    And as for being a spending department of the UK Government, they're a "spending department" with powers to raise taxes, and the only changes to taxes they've made is to freeze them for 8 years to benefit the middle classes and wealthiest home owners. I know in a devolved government their hands are tied to an extent, but they do have powers but it's much easier (and politically useful to their main aim) to not do it and blame Westminster (or "Wastemonster" as they call it).

  16. #105
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Governor View Post
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    The SNP are the most centralising party I think I've seen in action. Not one SNP MP, MSP or councillor goes off message - ever. When a big event happens you will notice one SNP MP Tweets something and within minutes another has Tweeted something with the wording slightly tweaked. Then another, maybe this time same words but different order.

    .
    The SNP party rules for MP's are, " any MP must accept that no member shall within or outwith the parliament publicly criticise a group decision, policy or another member of the group".
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  17. #106
    resident moaning git DaveF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    The SNP party rules for MP's are, " any MP must accept that no member shall within or outwith the parliament publicly criticise a group decision, policy or another member of the group".
    Seems pretty clear to me and anyone aspiring to be an MP. Therefore, if you don't agree, don't join.

  18. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    The SNP party rules for MP's are, " any MP must accept that no member shall within or outwith the parliament publicly criticise a group decision, policy or another member of the group".
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveF View Post
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    Seems pretty clear to me and anyone aspiring to be an MP. Therefore, if you don't agree, don't join.
    I'm a half full glass type of guy so I guess I tend to always see the positive (or I'm too naive!)

    I see it as a political party is made up of all sorts with broadly similar views (not all though)... so at conference etc you argue your stance and once the collective vote/agree on the Party line everyone needs to follow suit (until the next time), I see that as democracy at work?

    In a way is that not what Corbyn has done? Joined a party (or stayed in it) that's not wholly representative of his views but argued his ground?.... the party as a whole don't tend to agree with him on Trident, Unification of Ireland and the transfer of power towards Argentina re the Falklands (or at least i don't think the party does).

    As I say, maybe that glass is too full
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  19. #108
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveF View Post
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    Seems pretty clear to me and anyone aspiring to be an MP. Therefore, if you don't agree, don't join.
    Collective cabinet responsibility is one thing, allowing no public debate amongst a large group of back bench MPs is another. I guess we will see no maverick SNP MPs providing some entertainment over the next few years. Boring gits.
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  20. #109
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    In a way is that not what Corbyn has done? Joined a party (or stayed in it) that's not wholly representative of his views but argued his ground?.... the party as a whole don't tend to agree with him on Trident, Unification of Ireland and the transfer of power towards Argentina re the Falklands (or at least i don't think the party does).
    He has criticised decisions taken by his own party outside of conference though hasn't he? I think I read somewhere that he had voted against the Party leadership in Parliament on multiple occasions,I assume he gave reasons as to why. Would that contravene SNP party rules? I reckon it might.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
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  21. #110
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    He has criticised decisions taken by his own party outside of conference though hasn't he? I think I read somewhere that he had voted against the Party leadership in Parliament on multiple occasions,I assume he gave reasons as to why. Would that contravene SNP party rules? I reckon it might.
    fair dos.... I guess it would be.
    "The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
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  22. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    He has criticised decisions taken by his own party outside of conference though hasn't he? I think I read somewhere that he had voted against the Party leadership in Parliament on multiple occasions,I assume he gave reasons as to why. Would that contravene SNP party rules? I reckon it might.
    I'm sure I read that he's voted against his own party over 500 times.

  23. #112
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    any chance we could stop seeing every political issue on here through a SNP lens?

    The British print media are falling over themselves to be as insulting and dismissive of Corbyn as possible. That includes the Guardian and The Independent (the Guardian has managed to attack him on three separate issues on one page today(Chancellor appointment, lack of women in his cabinet, lack of a press strategy), and judging by the newsstands over the weekend the devil himself had been appointed Labour leader.

    There's less hyperbole and propaganda in the Peoples Daily than in the British press.

  24. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    any chance we could stop seeing every political issue on here through a SNP lens?

    The British print media are falling over themselves to be as insulting and dismissive of Corbyn as possible. That includes the Guardian and The Independent (the Guardian has managed to attack him on three separate issues on one page today(Chancellor appointment, lack of women in his cabinet, lack of a press strategy), and judging by the newsstands over the weekend the devil himself had been appointed Labour leader.

    There's less hyperbole and propaganda in the Peoples Daily than in the British press.
    Or find really tenuous ways to attack the SNP.

    Corbyn will not be given a chance by the UK media. He's an outsider, he threatens their comfortable familiarity within the status quo. The kind of Britain Corbyn envisages is so far beyond their concept of where the power ought to be that they see him as a threat. Hence the increasingly authoritarian David Cameron used such disgraceful language as calling him a "threat to national security".

    To bring it back to an SNP focus (and therefore wildly off topic), I'd be interested what Labour folks feel about seeing out and out, unsubstantiated attacks from the media - including the slightly sneering BBC - on their new leader. Not so easy to get a fair hearing to push through any ideas which change the established order the media have become so entrenched in, is it?

  25. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I'm sure I read that he's voted against his own party over 500 times.
    Should pose no problem for his whips, then.

  26. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    Or find really tenuous ways to attack the SNP.

    Corbyn will not be given a chance by the UK media. He's an outsider, he threatens their comfortable familiarity within the status quo. The kind of Britain Corbyn envisages is so far beyond their concept of where the power ought to be that they see him as a threat. Hence the increasingly authoritarian David Cameron used such disgraceful language as calling him a "threat to national security".

    To bring it back to an SNP focus (and therefore wildly off topic), I'd be interested what Labour folks feel about seeing out and out, unsubstantiated attacks from the media - including the slightly sneering BBC - on their new leader. Not so easy to get a fair hearing to push through any ideas which change the established order the media have become so entrenched in, is it?
    Your last paragraph is key for me. Whilst I'm sceptical of Corbyns appeal to large swathes of the electorate anyway, the media will kill him and it will be nigh on impossible for him to get his message across.

    I alluded to that earlier. Menzies Campbell was hounded by the media for the crime of being elderly, Corbyn is a far bigger threat and more of. a curios than that and will be undermined and slaughtered at almost every turn.

    Incidentally the most positive comment piece I have seen on Corbyn thus far appeared in the Daily Mail. Link below:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3232255/And-finally-best-thing-Attlee.html
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  27. #116
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    Or find really tenuous ways to attack the SNP.

    Corbyn will not be given a chance by the UK media. He's an outsider, he threatens their comfortable familiarity within the status quo. The kind of Britain Corbyn envisages is so far beyond their concept of where the power ought to be that they see him as a threat. Hence the increasingly authoritarian David Cameron used such disgraceful language as calling him a "threat to national security".

    To bring it back to an SNP focus (and therefore wildly off topic), I'd be interested what Labour folks feel about seeing out and out, unsubstantiated attacks from the media - including the slightly sneering BBC - on their new leader. Not so easy to get a fair hearing to push through any ideas which change the established order the media have become so entrenched in, is it?
    Murdoch's Sky as you would expect are giving him a torrid time but he could help himself a lot by talking on the BBC. Despite its perceived faults he would have a chance to show himself at his best. Not appearong with Andrew Marr was a mistake.
    Last edited by marinello59; 14-09-2015 at 08:57 PM.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
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  28. #117
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Wee Ginger Dug.

    Couldn't have put it better myself.

    http://t.co/T2lYvjjMBN

  29. #118
    Not just sometimes but always Northernhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Wee Ginger Dug.

    Couldn't have put it better myself.

    http://t.co/T2lYvjjMBN
    Corbyn's campaign team has already shown that they can stand up against negative media stories perfectly well and in fact used it to gain momentum and win the leadership election - he doesn't need patronising drivel as to how he needs to learn from nationalists in order to gain momentum - he already has it in bucket loads.


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  30. #119
    Not just sometimes but always Northernhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    To bring it back to an SNP focus (and therefore wildly off topic), I'd be interested what Labour folks feel about seeing out and out, unsubstantiated attacks from the media - including the slightly sneering BBC - on their new leader. Not so easy to get a fair hearing to push through any ideas which change the established order the media have become so entrenched in, is it?
    I think we'll see younger voters ignore the mainstream media and will use social media and other platforms to bypass the media on this one; Corbyn is more to the left than any other party represented in Westminster and will win back a lot of voters lost during the years of Blairism and guess what? They have a distrust of the media and will see through it.

    We're back to a fair more straightforward battle of left vs right.


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  31. #120
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northernhibee View Post
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    Corbyn's campaign team has already shown that they can stand up against negative media stories perfectly well and in fact used it to gain momentum and win the leadership election - he doesn't need patronising drivel as to how he needs to learn from nationalists in order to gain momentum - he already has it in bucket loads.
    He's currently got some mo, however let's see what occurs when he hits the buffers on Trident, which he will.

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