hibs.net Messageboard

Page 3 of 49 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 1452
  1. #61
    @hibs.net private member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,612
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    ... Corbyns victory(stunning victory) shows that the people of this country have had enough of the usual main stream political speak and are ready for something different.
    I don't usually post in political threads, but I'm struggling to see how the Labour party's election of Corbyn as leader says anything about what the people of this country think? The people of this country didn't vote for him?


  2. Log in to remove the advert

  3. #62
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't usually post in political threads, but I'm struggling to see how the Labour party's election of Corbyn as leader says anything about what the people of this country think? The people of this country didn't vote for him?
    Half a million people voted in the election, granted they were all Labour Party members, but the fact that they trebled their membership says to me that there's an audience for for what the man is proposing. I've never voted Labour in my life and probably never will, but I like what this man has to say. I'm fed up with bankers and the markets deciding whether people can put food on their table. It's time for change.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How many people did that include? Are you saying that a large part of the Scottish electorate voted SNP because they couldn't understand the difference between the 2 party's policies? You seem to be in a one man crusade to belittle the Scottish electorate in turn making yourself look like some sort of sage in the process.
    I've really no idea what you're talking about but a one man crusade to do anything sounds good to me.

  5. #64
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    London
    Age
    50
    Posts
    1,903
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Half a million people voted in the election, granted they were all Labour Party members, but the fact that they trebled their membership says to me that there's an audience for for what the man is proposing. I've never voted Labour in my life and probably never will, but I like what this man has to say. I'm fed up with bankers and the markets deciding whether people can put food on their table. It's time for change.
    He's got a big following in the young. I expect him to want free university tuition ( hopefully not by trashing the FE sector like the SNP did) and to lower the voting age ( which I agree with to balance the boomers influence).

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member Hibs Class's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    5,053
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How many people did that include? Are you saying that a large part of the Scottish electorate voted SNP because they couldn't understand the difference between the 2 party's policies? You seem to be in a one man crusade to belittle the Scottish electorate in turn making yourself look like some sort of sage in the process.
    I thought it was accepted that a large part of the Scottish electorate voted SNP because they didn't like the idea of Cameron's tories or Blair legacy labour. That was partly how SNP positioned themselves. It's hardly belittling the electorate by stating the obvious.
    ​#PERSEVERED


  7. #66
    First Team Breakthrough
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    153
    So Jeremy Corbyn is the new Labour leader. I really don't know where this will take the Labour Party! I can only make assumptions and here's my first. I strongly assume that middle England (the true battlefield in general elections) will reject JC policies. My 2nd assumption is that the Scottish Labour will get a few seats back in Scotland but, that wont change the outcome of a General Election which leads me to my 3rd assumption which is, I assume the tories will get re-elected. I'm a left winger so therefore hope all goes well for JC.

  8. #67
    @hibs.net private member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,612
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Half a million people voted in the election, granted they were all Labour Party members, but the fact that they trebled their membership says to me that there's an audience for for what the man is proposing. I've never voted Labour in my life and probably never will, but I like what this man has to say. I'm fed up with bankers and the markets deciding whether people can put food on their table. It's time for change.
    I'm sorry but I can't see how you can extrapolate these views from the election of Jeremy Corbyn. Time will tell, I guess.

  9. #68
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibs Class View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I thought it was accepted that a large part of the Scottish electorate voted SNP because they didn't like the idea of Cameron's tories or Blair legacy labour. That was partly how SNP positioned themselves. It's hardly belittling the electorate by stating the obvious.
    It's belittling the electorate to suggest that people voted SNP because the somehow believed the were something they weren't. Like it or not the SNP offered a serious alternative to the usual 2 party system and people latched on that with their eyes open. There seems to be a belief that the SNP somehow tracked people into believing they were a party of the people. They didn't, the SNP are a party of the people and if Corbyn gets it right Labour will be the same.

  10. #69
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm sorry but I can't see how you can extrapolate these views from the election of Jeremy Corbyn. Time will tell, I guess.
    I suppose everyone is going to have a different take on his election today. You say you can't see how I've come to my conclusions, but what would your take be on a hard left candidate winning the vote?

  11. #70
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,357
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It's belittling the electorate to suggest that people voted SNP because the somehow believed the were something they weren't. Like it or not the SNP offered a serious alternative to the usual 2 party system and people latched on that with their eyes open. There seems to be a belief that the SNP somehow tracked people into believing they were a party of the people. They didn't, the SNP are a party of the people and if Corbyn gets it right Labour will be the same.


    Council tax freeze.

    SNP flagship policy.

    First thing in their manifesto.

    Benefits the richest households three times more than the poorest.

    And does **** all for the very poorest as they don't pay council tax, so public money that could be helping them is subsidising the richest.

    I've posted this however many times and I've never seen any Nat defend it. Why not?

    They're not a party of the people, or a party of social justice, if that's what they do in government.

    Pretending they are just makes you look ludicrous.
    There's only one thing better than a Hibs calendar and that's two Hibs calendars

  12. #71
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote


    Council tax freeze.

    SNP flagship policy.

    First thing in their manifesto.

    Benefits the richest households three times more than the poorest.

    And does **** all for the very poorest as they don't pay council tax, so public money that could be helping them is subsidising the richest.

    I've posted this however many times and I've never seen any Nat defend it. Why not?

    They're not a party of the people, or a party of social justice, if that's what they do in government.

    Pretending they are just makes you look ludicrous.
    I agree that the council tax freeze isn't a progressive policy, but I don't know anyone who didn't welcome its introduction. The SNP proposed a local income tax whilst in minority government, but dropped it due to the fact that it would have been voted down. The SNP are a party of the people, that's why they wiped the floor with every other party in the last election, unless you think like an earlier poster that the SNP somehow managed to present a right of centre manifesto but convince millions that they were the party of the left.
    Last edited by lord bunberry; 13-09-2015 at 12:42 AM.

  13. #72
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,357
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I agree that the council tax freeze isn't a progressive policy, but I don't know anyone who didn't welcome its introduction. The SNP proposed a local income tax whilst in minority government, but dropped it due to the fact that it would have been voted down. The SNP are a party of the people, that's why they wiped the floor with every other party in the last election, unless you think like an earlier poster that the SNP somehow managed to present a right of centre manifesto but convince millions that they were the party of the left.
    And that's the point.

    How can you say they are a party of the people when the flagship policy benefits the rich over the poor?

    It's indefensible hypocrisy, surely?
    There's only one thing better than a Hibs calendar and that's two Hibs calendars

  14. #73
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,357
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I agree that the council tax freeze isn't a progressive policy, but I don't know anyone who didn't welcome its introduction. The SNP proposed a local income tax whilst in minority government, but dropped it due to the fact that it would have been voted down. The SNP are a party of the people, that's why they wiped the floor with every other party in the last election, unless you think like an earlier poster that the SNP somehow managed to present a right of centre manifesto but convince millions that they were the party of the left.
    Did you ask widely? Did you consider the implications?

    How many people do you know who have lost council services over the last few years?

    You might not personally but rest assured, so many have.

    They tend to be the older, frailer, more vulnerable.

    Next time you try and seek help for a frail or vulnerable relative from your local council, and it's them who have the duty to respond, bear in mind your previous posts.

    If you don't have the worry or concern about a family member who might need help then good for you. It will be a rude awakening when you do though.
    There's only one thing better than a Hibs calendar and that's two Hibs calendars

  15. #74
    @hibs.net private member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    7,710
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And that's the point. How can you say they are a party of the people when the flagship policy benefits the rich over the poor? It's indefensible hypocrisy, surely?
    While I get your point I would suggest the policy benefits many more people than just the 'rich'.

    I find it odd that every policy now has to be defined by the extremes of the rich and the poor...is there no space for policies that have a direct impact on those in the middle as well?

  16. #75
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Did you ask widely? Did you consider the implications?

    How many people do you know who have lost council services over the last few years?

    You might not personally but rest assured, so many have.

    They tend to be the older, frailer, more vulnerable.

    Next time you try and seek help for a frail or vulnerable relative from your local council, and it's them who have the duty to respond, bear in mind your previous posts.

    If you don't have the worry or concern about a family member who might need help then good for you. It will be a rude awakening when you do though.
    I gauge opinion from the people I speak to through my work and most people were relieved to hear about the council tax freeze. As for your 2nd point my father comes under the category you describe and I've been very much impressed by the way the council and the nhs has combined to meet his needs. The only thing I would say about these services is that they're all contracted out to companies who's aim is to make a profit(you'll notice I didn't say sole aim as I think that's unfair) which brings us back to JC and his vision for the country.

  17. #76
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,357
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    While I get your point I would suggest the policy benefits many more people than just the 'rich'.

    I find it odd that every policy now has to be defined by the extremes of the rich and the poor...is there no space for policies that have a direct impact on those in the middle as well?
    Think you've nailed the point. It was and is a policy that has buy-in because it benefits many, the 'middle' basically, and in fairness, I've acknowledged that before. It's a bribe for folk at a level whose reliance on local government services is basic

    The hypocrisy is in how extremely it benefits the highest council tax payers over the lowest council tax payers, and how the poorest don't benefit at all because they are too poor to pay council tax.

    That is the polar opposite of progressive, or being 'of the people'.
    There's only one thing better than a Hibs calendar and that's two Hibs calendars

  18. #77
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    While I get your point I would suggest the policy benefits many more people than just the 'rich'.

    I find it odd that every policy now has to be defined by the extremes of the rich and the poor...is there no space for policies that have a direct impact on those in the middle as well?
    Of course it does, it helped hard working families who had only seen a year on year increase in council tax. A new tax is needed but for now I'll settle for the freeze.

  19. #78
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Think you've nailed the point. It was and is a policy that has buy-in because it benefits many, the 'middle' basically, and in fairness, I've acknowledged that before. It's a bribe for folk at a level whose reliance on local government services is basic

    The hypocrisy is in how extremely it benefits the highest council tax payers over the lowest council tax payers, and how the poorest don't benefit at all because they are too poor to pay council tax.

    That is the polar opposite of progressive, or being 'of the people'.
    Come on now your just acting like a politician now the council tax freeze is widely acknowledged as being un progressive but it was an easy thing to do at the time to take some of the pressure off hard working families. Clearly what we need is a proper tax based on ability to pay, but successive governments have failed to come up viable alternative.

  20. #79
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,357
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I gauge opinion from the people I speak to through my work and most people were relieved to hear about the council tax freeze. As for your 2nd point my father comes under the category you describe and I've been very much impressed by the way the council and the nhs has combined to meet his needs. The only thing I would say about these services is that they're all contracted out to companies who's aim is to make a profit(you'll notice I didn't say sole aim as I think that's unfair) which brings us back to JC and his vision for the country.
    So, you've said you people you talked to were positive about the freeze. Sounds like a few as well.

    But you thought it wasn't progressive, you said that. Did you argue the point with them?

    If you did, fair play, what case did you make?

    If you didn't, why not? Did you just go along with them? What did you say to them?
    There's only one thing better than a Hibs calendar and that's two Hibs calendars

  21. #80
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,357
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Come on now your just acting like a politician now the council tax freeze is widely acknowledged as being un progressive but it was an easy thing to do at the time to take some of the pressure off hard working families. Clearly what we need is a proper tax based on ability to pay, but successive governments have failed to come up viable alternative.
    Widely?

    Really?

    I've not seen it widely acknowledged on here, let alone more widely.

    Happy to be pointed in the right direction, but from memory it wasn't a popular topic for Yessers during the referendum.

    Still waiting on an economic case for the last however many years
    There's only one thing better than a Hibs calendar and that's two Hibs calendars

  22. #81
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So, you've said you people you talked to were positive about the freeze. Sounds like a few as well.

    But you thought it wasn't progressive, you said that. Did you argue the point with them?

    If you did, fair play, what case did you make?

    If you didn't, why not? Did you just go along with them? What did you say to them?
    No I didn't argue the point with them as I was in the same boat as them looking for a break from our politicians at a time when times were difficult. When someone tells you that your tax bill is going to be frozen the natural reaction is to be welcoming of that. It was in the intervening months that people began raising the point of it not being a progressive policy and if I'm being honest I don't know why the SNP government at holyrood hasn't come up with a proper progressive alternative to the council tax, I think they've had their minds on other things

  23. #82
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    9,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Widely?

    Really?

    I've not seen it widely acknowledged on here, let alone more widely.

    Happy to be pointed in the right direction, but from memory it wasn't a popular topic for Yessers during the referendum.

    Still waiting on an economic case for the last however many years
    I think you're being quie harsh there! Most of the posts I've seen on the topic have acknowledged the fact that it's not a progressive tax. Finding an alternative within the Westminster budget constraints is going to be a challenge for any government and probably a very expensive one to implement.

  24. #83
    @hibs.net private member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,612
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So, you've said you people you talked to were positive about the freeze. Sounds like a few as well.
    I thought we were talking about the Labour leadership election.

  25. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It's belittling the electorate to suggest that people voted SNP because the somehow believed the were something they weren't. Like it or not the SNP offered a serious alternative to the usual 2 party system and people latched on that with their eyes open. There seems to be a belief that the SNP somehow tracked people into believing they were a party of the people. They didn't, the SNP are a party of the people and if Corbyn gets it right Labour will be the same.
    I think you've missed my point completely because I don't buy into meaningless terms like 'party of the people'. Using that logic, the Torie are a 'party of the people' because 'the people' put them into power.

    It's a fact that the SNP have successfully spun themselves as a more left-wing version of Labour when, in reality, they're further to the right than Labour have been since 2010.

  26. #85
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    London
    Age
    50
    Posts
    1,903
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think you've missed my point completely because I don't buy into meaningless terms like 'party of the people'. Using that logic, the Torie are a 'party of the people' because 'the people' put them into power.

    It's a fact that the SNP have successfully spun themselves as a more left-wing version of Labour when, in reality, they're further to the right than Labour have been since 2010.
    In what way are they to the right?

  27. #86
    First Team Breakthrough
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote


    Council tax freeze.

    SNP flagship policy.

    First thing in their manifesto.

    Benefits the richest households three times more than the poorest.

    And does **** all for the very poorest as they don't pay council tax, so public money that could be helping them is subsidising the richest.

    I've posted this however many times and I've never seen any Nat defend it. Why not?

    They're not a party of the people, or a party of social justice, if that's what they do in government.

    Pretending they are just makes you look ludicrous.
    The council tax freeze was brought in when the SNP only had a majority of 1 seat. This means other party members would've had to vote it through parliament too. It was also brought in at a time when our economy was starting to hit a low point (credit crunch) and this is why it was welcomed. I do get your point though, the less we pay the less goes into local services and maybe its time for the freeze to be lifted.

  28. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    In what way are they to the right?
    Policies that help the middle and upper classes as much as those in genuine need (e.g., free tuition, prescriptions, council tax), a border-line authoritarian need to centralise, sucking up to the likes or Souter and Murdoch, corporation tax, the privatisation of the ferry service and I haven't seen anything from the SNP that went further than Labour on the likes of redistribution of wealth or living wage (in fact, IIRC, the Scottish Government have refused to pay the living wage on occasion).

    I'm not saying that they're right-wing or that all of these things are 'bad'. I'm challenging the myth that they're more left-wing that even Miliband's Labour (never mind the new lot).

  29. #88
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    between a brewery & distillery
    Posts
    11,098
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote


    Council tax freeze.

    SNP flagship policy.

    First thing in their manifesto.

    Benefits the richest households three times more than the poorest.

    And does **** all for the very poorest as they don't pay council tax, so public money that could be helping them is subsidising the richest.

    I've posted this however many times and I've never seen any Nat defend it. Why not?

    They're not a party of the people, or a party of social justice, if that's what they do in government.

    Pretending they are just makes you look ludicrous.
    Let's look at the Council tax freeze another way, shall we?

    Each of the links below referes to Council Tax freezes across the United Kingdom that are not the responsibility of the SNP, but were put in place by either Labour or the Con/LibDem coalition. How will you blame the SNP for these?

    http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/...ts-cipfa-finds

    The Council Tax freeze impacts on Local Government Services more than householders that pay the tax.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ministers.html

    esidents should “demand an explanation” if councils refused the freeze
    http://www.conservativehome.com/thet...ax-freeze.html

    Under Labour, it rose by 109 per cent. Under the Coalition, it has gone up by three per cent – a fall of 11 per cent in real terms. (These are Band D figures.)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ax-freeze.html

    Ministers have insisted that local authorities have a duty to cap council tax bills in order to help people with the cost of living. But many council leaders say they have no choice but to increase levies in order to meet the mounting costs of providing services such as elderly care.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15145083

    A similar pledge was included in the coalition agreement and resulted in all local authorities in England freezing or reducing their council tax bills in 2011-12.
    http://www.labourinenfield.org.uk/co...reeze_petition

    Your Labour council has frozen Council Tax every year it has been in power - as promised in the 2010 Election Manifesto.

    A Land Valuation Tax, based on rent values would be the logical replacement of Council Tax


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/392c33a6-2...#axzz3lbye1eoK
    Last edited by Golden Fleece; 13-09-2015 at 11:00 AM.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  30. #89
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    London
    Age
    50
    Posts
    1,903
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Policies that help the middle and upper classes as much as those in genuine need (e.g., free tuition, prescriptions, council tax), a border-line authoritarian need to centralise, sucking up to the likes or Souter and Murdoch, corporation tax, the privatisation of the ferry service and I haven't seen anything from the SNP that went further than Labour on the likes of redistribution of wealth or living wage (in fact, IIRC, the Scottish Government have refused to pay the living wage on occasion).

    I'm not saying that they're right-wing or that all of these things are 'bad'. I'm challenging the myth that they're more left-wing that even Miliband's Labour (never mind the new lot).
    Centralisation and the policies on tuition fees and prescription are left wing centrally planned approaches. There's nothing right wing about them.

  31. #90
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Dont know its too dark in here
    Age
    60
    Posts
    9,310
    It's difficult to have a go at the SNP for being unprogressive/progressive when the Scottish Government is little more than a spending department of the UK government.

    Anyway back to Corbyn. I think he and his team have had a good look at how the SNP have achieved what they have and followed.

    One of the early things I noticed with the SNP was their willingness to listen and take policies forward as a collaboration. Indeed in some areas projects handed over to those on the front line who would eventually implement those policies.

    An observation of Labour was the dictatorial way they went about implementing policy.

    This was seen again during this election, the other candidates and big guns being rolled out telling members what to do and in a referendum type way threatening doom and gloom.

    In comparison most of the time I saw Corbyn he was patiently listening to what people had to say before he spoke and replied to that rather than to some prescriptive text someone else had prepared.
    Space to let

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
hibs.net ©2012 All Rights Reserved