England and sectarianism

[Nameless]

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An anthem is simply a hymn sung as a mark of loyalty to the nation. Ours is also sung as loyalty to our Monarch. Why should a young Irish man sing that? To suggest that not signing it is an act of disrespect against an entire nation is hyperbole in the extreme.

I would protect his right not to sing it with every argument I have. I think singing the anthem of another country is....silly. My point is against him turning his back on the flag. As another has said, show some class and bow your head - or better still hold your head high and face your "oppressors" flag with dignity. To make a blatant display, is just attention seeking not furthering a cause.

[Nameless]

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Loads of people will be impressed with their nonsense. There are plenty of like-minded idiots over there who remain determined to keep the country in the dark ages. They are the type that board the boats each weekend to come and sing their p!sh at Ibrox and Parkhead.

Fortunately they are in a dwindling minority and the vast majority of that truly brilliant part of the world have woken up and realised that there is a far better way to live your life and are now openly able to co-operate with one another.


I have a bit of sympathy for McLean. He is from a tough part of the world and he'll have had a particular exposure to certain things so some of his actions are understandable. He's not condoning terrorism, he's not carrying out violent acts - he's carrying out quiet, dignified protests in a way that he chooses.

I'd say the same if we were talking about a Northern Irish protestant, someone from say the Shankill Road area of Belfast whose family and friends may have suffered at the hands of the IRA. If they had chosen to make a living playing football in the Republic of Ireland should they be expected to sing the Irish National Anthem and go along with all the traditions that go with it? Actually I think this may have happened with rugby players in the past, from Ulster but playing for "Ireland" at rugby….


You can't excuse Broadfoot. He's an utter helmet, exactly the kind of pr!ck that this country specialises in producing and it's shameful for us that he's carrying out that nonsense outwith our borders. We don't want to get known for exporting that nonsense. For way too long has this stuff been dismissing and played down up here and I'm sick of it. We've not had trouble in our land the like of which the Northern Irish have and it's always been a mystery to me why so many imbeciles from within our shores are drawn to either side of the Irish problems. And yes, I'd say the same if it was one of your Cambuslang/ Greenock/ Port Glasgow or wherever pseudo-republicans as well, having a go at an Ivan Sproule/ Dean Shiels or whoever.

I can't disagree with that - good post.

[bigwheel]

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I would protect his right not to sing it with every argument I have. I think singing the anthem of another country is....silly. My point is against him turning his back on the flag. As another has said, show some class and bow your head - or better still hold your head high and face your "oppressors" flag with dignity. To make a blatant display, is just attention seeking not furthering a cause.

To be fair, you were going off on a deep "disrespecting the whole nation" point which was way over the top....I guess my simple point is why be offended though - I personally wouldn't do it, but if he had the boldness to make a statement - whether it was ego, showing off, or a deep belief system...Doesn't he have the right? It seems a bit immature to me, but I respect his personal choice.

We have an appalling heritage of oppression all around the world ...so if one kid chooses to make a stance - then to me, fair play. We probably deserve it.

[Nameless]

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Doesn't he have the right? It seems a bit immature to me, but I respect his personal choice

We agree on that - I respect anyone's right to protest, I just think his attempt is a bit contrived.

[bigwheel]

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We agree on that - I respect anyone's right to protest, I just think his attempt is a bit contrived.

I agree on that too....but respect his boldness in a way...

[LiverpoolHibs]

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An act of disrespect towards a national icon, is an act of disrespect against the nation itself. You can't hate an inanimate object like a flag, but you can hate what it represents - what does a flag represent? It represents a nation and its people. McLean is as much a bigot as Broadfoot, but he gets to pretend his hatred is nationalism and patriotism. The two of them need to grow up, it's pathetic that adults carry on in this fashion - it's 2015. I doubt VERY MUCH, that many people of either persuasion across the Irish sea*are*impressed by the antics of foolish men and their ignorant stupidity.

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Why? Do you disrespect a song or a flag because you dislike it, or what it is symbolic of? An act of disrespect against a national flag or anthem is directed at the nation itself. If you disagree, please tell me what else a flag or anthem represents?

It's smashing you're making this argument while you have the picture you do as an avatar.

[Nameless]

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It's smashing you're making this argument while you have the picture you do as an avatar.

I was waiting for someone to mention that - please tell me you recognise the vast difference in circumstances.

[Pretty Boy]

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I was waiting for someone to mention that - please tell me you recognise the vast difference in circumstances.

The treatments of blacks pre and during the civil rights struggle in the US and the treatment of Catholics in Northen Ireland pre the civil rights advances in the early to mid 1960s aren't that vastly different.

[bigwheel]

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The treatments of blacks pre and during the civil rights struggle in the US and the treatment of Catholics in Northen Ireland pre the civil rights advances in the early to mid 1960s aren't that vastly different.

Completely agree with this....

[Nameless]

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The treatments of blacks pre and during the civil rights struggle in the US and the treatment of Catholics in Northen Ireland pre the civil rights advances in the early to mid 1960s aren't that vastly different.

His raised hand salute, in such a public setting, drew the world's attention to the plight of the blacks in America. What current plight is McLean drawing the world's attention to?

[Pretty Boy]

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His raised hand salute, in such a public setting, drew the world's attention to the plight of the blacks in America. What current plight is McLean drawing the world's attention to?

In later years perhaps, the contemporary mainstream response was generally critical.

I don't think McLean was making any real point with his actions, on this occasion at least, but his background may well mean he feels the same way about the British state as Tommie Smith et all felt about the 60s US establishment.

[Sir David Gray]

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Why do you think he hates the country ? Because he refused to stand for the anthem ? Are people not allowed different beliefs ? I wouldn't stand for the British anthem if I could avoid it ...does that make me hate England ??

Not just this, there's also the incident with the refusal to wear the poppy on his shirt for Remembrance Day. Perhaps "hate" was a bit strong but he clearly has a major issue with respecting British customs. If I had as much of a problem with my country's traditions and customs then I would move out.

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James McLean was born in the UK. Why should he move out?

I think its difficult to understand from the outside the impact of growing up in what would have been a minority in Derry during a difficult period.

He has been brought up seeing and hearing about actions being carried out under the British flag. It's not abour religion its about real life treatment of people.

He isn't practicing hatred against anyone, he is just refusing to join in with organised signs of respect for something he obviously has no respect for. I don't think it makes him a bigot.

I know he was born in the UK but he clearly identifies more with being Irish than he does with being British and if that's the way he feels then that's fine. All I'm saying is, if I felt the same way about the UK as he does then I wouldn't wish to live there anymore and I would make sure that I moved somewhere else.

I wouldn't expect him to sing GSTQ (I wouldn't sing it either) but to turn his back on the flag and bow his head during the anthem whilst the rest of his team mates are singing it really isn't on and it just brings embarrassment upon the club. Presumably he didn't tell Tony Pulis before the game about his intentions either and that just shows him up to be really immature in my book.

I've no time at all for this sort of behaviour.

[liamh2202]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...er-League.html

Sums it up for me

[Sir David Gray]

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...er-League.html

Sums it up for me

Yep and me.

Good article.

[Colr]

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...er-League.html

Sums it up for me

Agreed.

[Purple & Green]

Was broadfoot binned from Hibs for off the field issues? Vague recollection I've got.

McClean is a funny old thing. There's plenty of people who were directly involved in the troubles who have moved on through truth and reconciliation - his protests seem petty, unnecessary and disrespectful to his current employers and fans.


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[Keith_M]

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Not just this, there's also the incident with the refusal to wear the poppy on his shirt for Remembrance Day. Perhaps "hate" was a bit strong but he clearly has a major issue with respecting British customs. If I had as much of a problem with my country's traditions and customs then I would move out.

I'm sorry Trig but I have to strongly disagree with that point of view.


I think the guy can rightly be slated for deliberately disrepecting the national anthem. OK, he has issues with it, so he could have just stood there with his head bowed, not deliberately turn away and make a deliberate show of disrespect. I myself have issue with the words of the Irish National Anthem but I would never show such public disrespect to the people of Ireland by doing what he did.


However, the issue with the Poppy is completely different. The wearing of a Poppy has now become such an enormously contentious issue, where people complain en-masse if even one person is seen on TV without one. They then infer a lack of respect for the war dead, the British Establishment, et al.

At no point does it occur to people the irony of talking up the fight for freedom and against oppression, while at the same time trying to force their views on other people. There are also many reasons for not wearing a Poppy and some of the implications are, quite frankly, over the top. I've never in my life worn a Poppy. I have my reasons (not the same as his), which will stay private, but that does not mean I have no respect for the sacrifices made during the war or have no pity for the wounded of various conflicts.

People should be allowed to choose something like this and not have it forced upon them for a PR stunt by a Football Club, something that has only come into vogue in recent years, as a response to the over the top criticism I mentioned earlier.

[Canon Hannan]

Well done the English FA. Stamping out this evil man's hate. Pity the SFA cannot follow their rules of deducting points for sectarian singing? It is easy - when fans sing a song of religious hate deduct points. Only SEVCO will be effected, not Hearts, Hibs or Celtic.

[cabbageandribs1875]

heard on the radio 3 south stand bigots were arrested for sectarian singing at the game today(lets be honest..it should have been 3000) and sevco could be in trouble for the party songs aye RIGHT

[anon1875]

I like James McClean and I think he's bloody brave. Erin Go Bragh.

[ronaldo7]

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I like James McClean and I think he's bloody brave. Erin Go Bragh.

Here are McClean's reasons for not wearing a poppy.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...n-poppy-bolton

I'm sure he has reasons why he turned away from a piece of cloth too. Has anyone asked him?

[Baader]

Good on the FA. Sectarian bigotry is a huge blight on Scottish football and Scottish society. An absolute embarrassment.

Broadfoot has always been a complete imbecile of a man. Only player I can recall being injured after an egg he put in a microwave exploded in his face. Kind of sums up the level of intelligence you are dealing with...

[Stranraer]

Typical hun.

At last the FA are doing something right.

[superfurryhibby]

Interesting debate and largely respectful to each other's very differing views.

I struggle with the idea that Someone should leave Britain and not warn a living when they are supposedly British born.

I personally want to dismantle the British state and choose to exercise my democratic right to vote and join a political party with that aim. That would not be exclusive to working in Engalnd, which also happens to be the place of birth for my grandfather and a whole branch of my extended family.

As an aside. Why were the Polis letting Huns put there arms around them for photos after the game. Doesn't that fuel the Polis are Proddies ***** that the Huns believe? They should be a bit smarter than that in my view.