Do we really need a Youth Policy?

[liamh2202]

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Craig is head of football operations, John Park was head of youth development but probably their roles had considerable overlap?

I suppose I think the problem is implementation rather than strategy, and you'd have to be pretty churlish to think Hibs don't try to implement to the best of their ability.

Which leads onto, if we are improving, and we are in the right direction what happens if our head of football operations leaves?

Its the same job with a new title john park was head of the while youth setup alongside being chief scout for the first team, bill hendrie then got the job when john went to Celtic

[Ozyhibby]

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I hope not....that's the purpose of all the youth clubs. Really no need for Hibs to have another boys Community Club. That will only damage youth clubs.

I agree. I have only heard a rumour just now so it would be unfair to judge just now but I believe it is just to be a community club which will compete with all the others.

[MB62]

My point was, we have apparently just allowed to let go, three of our brightest prospects in Harris, Handling & Stanton but have signed two others in Boyle & Fyvie (with possibly/hopefully McGeouch), players which are all within a year or two of the guys we have spent a lot of time and money on bringing through, just to replace them.
Ok, I hear what is being said about the youth set up being revamped, and maybe this revamp will pay off in the long term, but it is going to be interesting to see if this will be the case or/and if we still sign players of a similar age from other clubs.
As previously said, I have no idea how much we as a club spend on our youth system. My question would be, could we save enough money on not having one and then trying to 'cherry pick' the best of the rest?

Personally, I would love for our team to be filled with lads we have brought through a very successful youth set up but ultimately, if this is not paying dividends for the first team then it is a waste of resources.

[GreenCastle]

Interesting topic.

Several good points already raised.

Would be curious to now the amount of money spent / raised / invested in our youth structure - salaries of staff etc.

As already mentioned there are club licensing standards also.

Check out the link below - then click- current status - Hibs are Gold and Gold 4+

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football....cfm?page=2570

[Brightside]

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My point was, we have apparently just allowed to let go, three of our brightest prospects in Harris, Handling & Stanton but have signed two others in Boyle & Fyvie (with possibly/hopefully McGeouch), players which are all within a year or two of the guys we have spent a lot of time and money on bringing through, just to replace them.
Ok, I hear what is being said about the youth set up being revamped, and maybe this revamp will pay off in the long term, but it is going to be interesting to see if this will be the case or/and if we still sign players of a similar age from other clubs.
As previously said, I have no idea how much we as a club spend on our youth system. My question would be, could we save enough money on not having one and then trying to 'cherry pick' the best of the rest?

Personally, I would love for our team to be filled with lads we have brought through a very successful youth set up but ultimately, if this is not paying dividends for the first team then it is a waste of resources.

Eh? We have not let any of those players go.

[MB62]

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Eh? We have not let any of those players go.

Rumour, which is why I said 'apparently'.

[Brightside]

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Rumour, which is why I said 'apparently'.

Its not though....only person that has been talked about on msg boards is Stanton to Dundee. There has been no speculation about Handling and Harris. Any possible loan deal for the 3 of them will come once pre season training has kicked off.

[offshorehibby]

Was there not rumours doing the rounds a couple of weeks back about a tie up with Edina Hibs.

[Eyrie]

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My point was, we have apparently just allowed to let go, three of our brightest prospects in Harris, Handling & Stanton but have signed two others in Boyle & Fyvie (with possibly/hopefully McGeouch), players which are all within a year or two of the guys we have spent a lot of time and money on bringing through, just to replace them.
Ok, I hear what is being said about the youth set up being revamped, and maybe this revamp will pay off in the long term, but it is going to be interesting to see if this will be the case or/and if we still sign players of a similar age from other clubs.
As previously said, I have no idea how much we as a club spend on our youth system. My question would be, could we save enough money on not having one and then trying to 'cherry pick' the best of the rest?

Personally, I would love for our team to be filled with lads we have brought through a very successful youth set up but ultimately, if this is not paying dividends for the first team then it is a waste of resources.

If other clubs are able to bring through better youngsters than us who we then cherry pick, then there is no reason why we should not be able to put a youth policy in place that produces players of that level for us.

It's only a waste of resources if it isn't operating properly.

[Green Man]

What disappoints me is that, when East Mains first opened, I visited and they were talking up the youth program. Players were put up in the QMC residences, bussed in to the training centre every day, given meals and helped with non-football education. This all sounded great - so what happened? Why have we had to change things again?

[B.H.F.C]

Yes we need a youth policy. It's just been mismanaged for years.

It's not all down to the club. There needs to be a better pathway to the first team though. The jump from the development league to the first team is just too big. The only player, recently, who has regularly been able to do for the first team what he did in the development league is Cummings. Regularly, the likes of Handling and Stanton stroll through games in the 20s but struggle to make a consistent impact in the first team. That said, we are in the championship which does make that jump a fair bit smaller.

[offshorehibby]

Just noticed this on twitter Re Edina Hibs

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/5502

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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I've been thinking about this for a couple of years now but this close season has just got me asking 'Why are we continually spending money on a youth policy when very few, if any, come through and we just end up signing players from other clubs'?

It's not a wind BTW, it's a serious question.

I have no idea how much the club spends on bringing young players to the club and trying to bring them through our system, ready eventually for first team appearances.
Whatever it is, our success rate of recent years has been all but non existent and the 'big' hopes for this season, Handling, Stanton & Harris have all apparently been told to find themselves another club.
Along with this, we seem to be 'cherry picking' players of a similar age from other clubs, players that we are obviously looking at playing a contributing role in the first team squad for the coming season and not just be sitting on the bench because we need young guys there by the rules.

I know we all like to see our own coming through, but if they are not coming through, then there is a big waste of time and money spent on these guys that could maybe be used better elsewhere.

I'm also a big believer in the fact that clubs DO NOT build for the future as far as the team is concerned. Everything is done for the PRESENT not the next year or year after as nobody knows who is going to be at the club in 6 months time never mind a year or two. We didn't go in to last season to build a team to win the league this season, nor will be building a team now for next year. The squad Stubbs is putting together is to try and win the league this coming season, or if not, to get promoted through the play offs.
On that, if Stubbs does put together a league winning team, then the chances are he will not be with us next season and a new team will have to built again, as happens every year, by most clubs I may add.

It's obviously a controversial thought/opinion and no doubt there will be plenty names get banded about about who has come through recently, Jordon Forster for one. Maybe this is just a frustration about our lack of lads making the step up but if we are now signing young players from other clubs, why bother spending money on our youth system?

Marketing myopia was a seminal work from Levitt in the 1960s. One of the strands was about focusing too much on product and the here and now and ending up with something That's not equipped for the future.

Focusing too much on the here and now may address the immediate concerns and there may be merit in that if you're going down the tubes to worry about which business you are actually in...

It seems to me that we have been victims of focusing too much on the here and now and not building (infrastructure aside) for the future.

In terms of youth how do you expect to appeal to youngsters in the community and beyond if there's no visible route in?
Would we have seen the likes of the golden generation if we were solely focused on here and now and not building from youth (although some may argue the golden generation was thrust apon us b circumstance than by design).

With the rch getting richer and the poor getting poorer football's future for many clubs surely lies within their local community. Is there a better way to demonstrate that than have one of your own within the ranks?

Big clubs within Brazil are sporting associations they have various parts to the organisation schools of samba, football salão and other activities.
Palmeiras are known as the Mancha Verde (the green stain). I like that. But then again I just poured and consumed a large caipirinha after a neat whisky ;)

[green&left]

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Interesting topic.

Several good points already raised.

Would be curious to now the amount of money spent / raised / invested in our youth structure - salaries of staff etc.

As already mentioned there are club licensing standards also.

Check out the link below - then click- current status - Hibs are Gold and Gold 4+

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football....cfm?page=2570

Interesting spreadsheet that.

Looking at the ratings and taking into account infrastructure, administration and youth policy the only club with a higher rating than us is Celtic. Off the field is looking solid indeed, just got to get it right on the field this season.

Also noticed we have a gold rating for ER along with Ibrox, Parkhead and Hampden only. (With our big team chums in bronze stood along side Gayfield and Cappielow amongst others).

[The goalie]

Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

[archiebald]

I am sure Hibs will intervene if they think there is a problem,but then again should parent's not keep out of it as Hibs are running the show

[Brightside]

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Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

Eddie has been a breath of fresh air. He is exactly what is needed at Hibs at youth level.

[Brightside]

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I am sure Hibs will intervene if they think there is a problem,but then again should parent's not keep out of it as Hibs are running the show

Spot on - loads of players have moved on - mainly because they are nowhere near the level required.

[MB62]

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Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

And that is exactly the point I am trying to make.
How much have we spent overall to POSSIBLY produce 1 or 2 players? How much do we save by scrapping the youth system and then when the manager/scouts spot somebody they like from say Morton, for example, and just pay the fee required if the player is U23?
I know scrapping the youth system is never going to happen, it would probably politically incorrect if nothing else, but I'm more and more coming to the conclusion we don't really need one and there is an alternative way to go that best pay dividends for the club.

[dangermouse]

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Interesting topic.

Several good points already raised.

Would be curious to now the amount of money spent / raised / invested in our youth structure - salaries of staff etc.

As already mentioned there are club licensing standards also.

Check out the link below - then click- current status - Hibs are Gold and Gold 4+

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football....cfm?page=2570

So how does the youth set up become 6 star giving us Platinum status?

[bigwheel]

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Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

Thats not the update I get from one of the parents. His view is that Hibs are now much better run. Sure were some kids moved on or who left, but not those that are viewed as the right type. My friend was very complimentary of the coaching and support his boy is is getting at Hibs.

I'm not close to it, I admit, as it's just through a mate - but he seemed very upbeat about the set up.

[Andy74]

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Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

I'm delighted he has been going in and 'messing' things up - exactly what the place needed.

[Andy74]

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And that is exactly the point I am trying to make.
How much have we spent overall to POSSIBLY produce 1 or 2 players? How much do we save by scrapping the youth system and then when the manager/scouts spot somebody they like from say Morton, for example, and just pay the fee required if the player is U23?
I know scrapping the youth system is never going to happen, it would probably politically incorrect if nothing else, but I'm more and more coming to the conclusion we don't really need one and there is an alternative way to go that best pay dividends for the club.

Where do you get the fees from to pay fro players from other clubs?

It needs to work better of course but if it does you not only get players into your first team that you haven't had to pay for from other clubs but you also open the possibility of getting decent fees over time for players you have brought through.

[Ozyhibby]

Don't know much about the set up but I find with parents in youth football that if their kids is doing well it's a great set up and if they are not doing well then there is something wrong with the set up.
They don't mean it, it's just a natural reaction.

[CapitalGreen]

37% of Hibs first team appearances last season were made by graduates of the youth Academy (28% of first team starts).

[The goalie]

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Spot on - loads of players have moved on - mainly because they are nowhere near the level required.

You see thats interesting and if they dropped down to say boys club etc i would agree but boys went straight into, Hearts, Rangers, Motherwell etc and more importantly are still there for next season so are the standard.

They did not get cut they walked, we have a truly fantastic striker at 14/15s just now who is walking, our Scotland player at 17s last year has also walked.
14's goalie walked as ttaining has been truly awful for goalies since Thomo was cut by Butcher, this kid was coming from West Lothian area to be faced with no goalie training as the coach (that they got from Hearts and is brutal) had not turned up!

There has been issues for a while and have gotten much, much worse this past year, all very easy to blame the last guy when you are first in, bit harder when it is a year on.

[liamh2202]

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You see thats interesting and if they dropped down to say boys club etc i would agree but boys went straight into, Hearts, Rangers, Motherwell etc and more importantly are still there for next season so are the standard.

They did not get cut they walked, we have a truly fantastic striker at 14/15s just now who is walking, our Scotland player at 17s last year has also walked.
14's goalie walked as ttaining has been truly awful for goalies since Thomo was cut by Butcher, this kid was coming from West Lothian area to be faced with no goalie training as the coach (that they got from Hearts and is brutal) had not turned up!

There has been issues for a while and have gotten much, much worse this past year, all very easy to blame the last guy when you are first in, bit harder when it is a year on.

The thing you need to be careful of is how much credit you give other acadamies. Just because they went there doesn't mean they are good enough for hibs. When I went through the academy if a player from our team were to go to rangers or Motherwell that would have been seen as a failure because us and I must say hearts were a far better standard.

I sometimes think our academy deserves a lot more credit . the figures above seem to back that up as this is a somewhat dry spell.

[liamh2202]

Who is the youth goalie coach now ?

[Brightside]

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You see thats interesting and if they dropped down to say boys club etc i would agree but boys went straight into, Hearts, Rangers, Motherwell etc and more importantly are still there for next season so are the standard.

They did not get cut they walked, we have a truly fantastic striker at 14/15s just now who is walking, our Scotland player at 17s last year has also walked.
14's goalie walked as ttaining has been truly awful for goalies since Thomo was cut by Butcher, this kid was coming from West Lothian area to be faced with no goalie training as the coach (that they got from Hearts and is brutal) had not turned up!

There has been issues for a while and have gotten much, much worse this past year, all very easy to blame the last guy when you are first in, bit harder when it is a year on.

IF they are good enough and IF they have the right attitude Eddie May will be a great leader for them. There are still coaches at all levels who I think wont be around much longer, but most are free so harder to replace. Remember most of these guys don't get paid so sometimes they don't actually turn up as they will have other work commitments.

[MB62]

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Where do you get the fees from to pay fro players from other clubs?

It needs to work better of course but if it does you not only get players into your first team that you haven't had to pay for from other clubs but you also open the possibility of getting decent fees over time for players you have brought through.

seriously?