Barcelona v Bayern

[Andy74]

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Absolutely and you really need to take into account the massive physical abuse guys like Pele and Maradona used to take unlike the primadonnas about now

There is no way IMO that either Messi or Ronaldo would have been able to take some of the assaults the guys years ago had to put up with. Guys had to basically pull a knife to get a yellow card (or booking as it was).

I think with the passing of time some of the achievements of Pele have been forgotten.

Could you imagine if a 17 year old came to a world cup, scored in the quarters, then a semi final hat trick and two in the final including that flick up and volley?

There is some argument that the champions League has overtaken the world cup and so what Messi and Ronaldo do there is comparable. Maybe, but they also have this tournament set up so they have the best possible chance to play in the latter stages of it every year, supported by the best players.

If Pele wasn't brutally kicked out of another two world cups he probably would have had another couple of winner medals at that level.

Anyway, I haven't seen Messi or Ronaldo helping prisoners of war escape the Nazis as yet, have you?

[Baader]

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I think with the passing of time some of the achievements of Pele have been forgotten.

Could you imagine if a 17 year old came to a world cup, scored in the quarters, then a semi final hat trick and two in the final including that flick up and volley?

There is some argument that the champions League has overtaken the world cup and so what Messi and Ronaldo do there is comparable. Maybe, but they also have this tournament set up so they have the best possible chance to play in the latter stages of it every year, supported by the best players.

If Pele wasn't brutally kicked out of another two world cups he probably would have had another couple of winner medals at that level.

Anyway, I haven't seen Messi or Ronaldo helping prisoners of war escape the Nazis as yet, have you?

Yep. Lets not forgot Pele won 3 World Cups and while it was easier to score then it was also much easier to get crocked. They were marked men without any protection. Brazil would probably have won it again in 66 if he hadn't have been kicked out the tournament.

Messi certainly has strong claim to stand aside Pele or perhaps even in frontof the great man but just because there isn't as much TV footage of players from bygone days doesn't mean they were any less a player. It annoys me how in England football these days only seems to go as far back as the Premier Leagues inception in 1992. There were guys rattling in goals in the top flight before then whose achievements don't merit a mention now... Its as if records only began with the Premier League...

[lord bunberry]

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[pedroorange1875]

Im not doubting Messi deserves all the incredible headlines he is getting at the moment. However on the world stage its a completely different story and is why at the moment he cant be put up beside Pele or Maradonna. He is not even in the same league.

Domestically no doubt at all

[--------]

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Easier to score in the old days and he never mode out of South America to prove himself elsewhere did he?

In short he's not all that

Star of the 1958 World Cup in Sweden at 17 years of age; injured in Chile in 1962.

Then he was hacked out of the tournament in England - the English referee George McCabe let the Portuguese players get away with murder against him in the third and losing section game. I well remember the sight of him limping around the pitch through the second half - no subs in 1966. What happened was a disgrace, and I remain convinced that McCabe let Morais in particular do what he did to remove a real threat from the tournament before Pele played against England.

He came back in 1970 and was quite simply the star of an outstanding Brazilian side. The complete team player - not a hint of the prima donna. To come back after the treatment he had received in England and to figure so outstandingly in every one of the six matches he played in Mexico says it all about his character.

As for proving 'elsewhere', Brazilian football in his day was very strong, very competitive, and the fact that he played in Brazil throughout his career didn't mean what you're suggesting it meant.

And if you REALLY think it was easier to score in those days, you might like to do a wee bit of research into some of the big dirty defenders Pele played against and the way referees had at the time of turning a blind eye and waving play on when the welly was going in.

Just as well you put that winky smilie in there, or I'd have thought you'd lost your marbles ...

There isn't, nor ever will there be, a "greatest footballer ever". A player can only be great in his (or her, nowadays) generation. Even then you have arguments. Who was better - Puskas or Di Stefano? Was Pele a greater player than Maradona? What about Gerd Muller, 'Der Bomber'? Franz Beckenbauer, the 'Kaiser'? Roberto Baggio? Paolo Maldini? Zinidine Zidane? Lionel Messi is probably #1 right now, but Christiano Ronaldo might still have something to say about that in the next couple of years.

I saw all of those guys play, and they were all great players. And there were others almost as good, maybe as good, maybe better.

And just to stir the pot a wee bit - I'd back a fit Puskas in his 20's to have scored 5 or 6 last night if he'd been playing in place of Messi.

HE didnae waste chances like those.

[Pretty Boy]

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Im not doubting Messi deserves all the incredible headlines he is getting at the moment. However on the world stage its a completely different story and is why at the moment he cant be put up beside Pele or Maradonna. He is not even in the same league.

Domestically no doubt at all

Tbh he's playing players on the 'world stage' on a regular basis and starring. The Champions League features a hell of a lot of the best players in the world and is around every year and Messi regularly shines. Such a tournament didn't exist in Peles day and the only time the the best players in the world competed was at the World Cup. I'd argue that the Champions League for the last 10-15 years at least has regularly featured the best players from Europe, Africa, Asia and South America.

The argument is also often made that Messi and Ronaldo and other wouldn't have coped with the physical side of the game in the past. To balance that up surely it has to be accepted that Pele and even Maradonna who played relatively recently wouldn't be able to cope with the pace of the game now and the stamina required. Watch games from the 50s through the 70s and even 80s on Youtube or whatever and it's like watching in slow motion at times.

It's an argument that I can't win though because in any sport no one of a certain vintage will ever accept that past icons can be bettered. I'm not trying to belittle the achievements of Pele in any way but Messi is a unique and special talent who is worthy of whatever superlatives are thrown at him and he'll be talked about for years to come. Doddie nails it above, you can't ever have a greatest player ever because there are far too many variables to consider.

[lyonhibs]

The answer to the question is Maradona. Thank me later :-P

[HibbyAndy]

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The answer to the question is Maradona. Thank me later :-P

For me Maradona is quite simply the greatest player ever.

[Jonnyboy]

Age has its benefits sometimes and I feel privileged to have watched Pele, Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo play. They were/are all quality footballers of that there is no doubt.

As far as the Messi/Ronaldo debate goes I'm firmly in the Messi camp. Scores loads, makes loads and always tries to stay on his feet while Ronaldo scores loads, refuses to pass the ball if he is near goal and falls over if he's looked at the wrong way!

[Billy Whizz]

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Age has its benefits sometimes and I feel privileged to have watched Pele, Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo play. They were/are all quality footballers of that there is no doubt.

As far as the Messi/Ronaldo debate goes I'm firmly in the Messi camp. Scores loads, makes loads and always tries to stay on his feet while Ronaldo scores loads, refuses to pass the ball if he is near goal and falls over if he's looked at the wrong way!

I'm in the Messi camp as well, but my favourite all time footballer was Cruyff. Thought he had everything!
I think there has been a player that's shine in each era, really hard to compare each of them. Wonder who we'll be talking about in 10 years

[Jonnyboy]

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I'm in the Messi camp as well, but my favourite all time footballer was Cruyff. Thought he had everything!
I think there has been a player that's shine in each era, really hard to compare each of them. Wonder who we'll be talking about in 10 years

Scott Allan

[3pm]

Pele said George Best was the greatest. I agree.

[Billy Whizz]

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Scott Allan

Would be nice, doubt it though😄

[ACLeith]

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As far as the Messi/Ronaldo debate goes I'm firmly in the Messi camp. Scores loads, makes loads and always tries to stay on his feet while Ronaldo scores loads, refuses to pass the ball if he is near goal and falls over if he's looked at the wrong way!

Agree JB. Messi has always been a team player, Ronaldo never will be and he seems to be getting worse. Messi's second last night was created and finished with his "wrong" foot, Ronaldo could have matched him with his right but I doubt he could have with his left.

[Jonnyboy]

I have a lot of time for Pep, but this is just nonsense

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32619182

[Danderhall Hibs]

Doddie it was easier to score in the old days - the results were 9-3 and 10-2 every other week.

The defenders might've been big and dirty but they clearly weren't very good.

[cmcd]

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This. I don't believe for a second that anyone has ever been better than Messi. I'd even say the same for Ronaldo to be honest (apart from Messi being a significant bit better than him of course). The two best players in history, and in Messi, a man that will remain the best ever for a very long time, can't see anyone coming along that's better any time soon.

In your opinion

[--------]

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I have a lot of time for Pep, but this is just nonsense

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32619182

Yeah - like a guy wrestling a grizzly bear's in control of the bear. Right up to the moment the bear rips his head off.

Anything can happen in the second leg, right enough, but it isn't looking good for the Munch-kins.

[PeeJay]

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I have a lot of time for Pep, but this is just nonsense

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32619182

I can see Guardiola's line of thought, not sure it is "nonsense" as you suggest: the outcome was actually looking good for an "under-strength" Bayern until the 1st goal went in, even at the 2nd, the game in Munich could still have been a difficult one for Barcelona - the 3rd goal obviously makes it extremely difficult. I would never give up on Bayern though: an early goal and anything is possible - think Bayern without Ribery and Robben are only half the team they can be ... should be an interesting second leg ...

[O'Rourke3]

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Doddie it was easier to score in the old days - the results were 9-3 and 10-2 every other week.

The defenders might've been big and dirty but they clearly weren't very good.

Brazil 1 Germany 7

I'm in the Pele camp simply because were he born the same time as Messi they'd both still have the same talent and Pele would be as fit as Lionel because he'd have to be.

Defenders were as good then, there were simply fewer of them(2-3-5) formations. The idea was to win games not defend and hope to get up the park and score. Alf Ramsey's England probably the first to introduce new tactics and be successful. The Italian Iron Curtain was good enough to progress but by and large didn't win tournaments regularly. They of course turned that round in Spain when they decided attack with players of their talent had a decent chance of success.

[lyonhibs]

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For me Maradona is quite simply the greatest player ever.

Aye, but he's never proven himself in the EPL. Could he do it on a wet Tuesday night in Stoke??

Applying the Sky Sports et al in-depth analysis of why Zlatan Ibrahamovic has never "done it on the big stage"

[jacomo]

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Pele said George Best was the greatest. I agree.

Pele seems to have forgotten he once said this though!

[Danderhall Hibs]

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Brazil 1 Germany 7

I'm in the Pele camp simply because were he born the same time as Messi they'd both still have the same talent and Pele would be as fit as Lionel because he'd have to be.

Defenders were as good then, there were simply fewer of them(2-3-5) formations. The idea was to win games not defend and hope to get up the park and score. Alf Ramsey's England probably the first to introduce new tactics and be successful. The Italian Iron Curtain was good enough to progress but by and large didn't win tournaments regularly. They of course turned that round in Spain when they decided attack with players of their talent had a decent chance of success.

Germany 7 Brazil 1 was such a shock because it was a one off though.

And with less defenders on the pitch it is/was clearly easier to score; that's why in the olden days the scores were all mental 6-3s and that.

[Itsnoteasy]

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Should have cashed out as I had 2-0 Barcelona and was just about to press the button - lost out on £37.

The upside is I have a ticket for the Final in Berlin and my dream final of Barcelona v Real Madrid remains alive, need Real to do the business next week though.

Ya Jammy bugger. Did you get them in ballot. I took a tour round the stadium a couple of months ago. Very impressive. ENJOY

[johnbc70]

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Ya Jammy bugger. Did you get them in ballot. I took a tour round the stadium a couple of months ago. Very impressive. ENJOY

Yep, the public ballot. I apply every year. Looking forward to it!

[Iggy Pope]

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I think with the passing of time some of the achievements of Pele have been forgotten.

Could you imagine if a 17 year old came to a world cup, scored in the quarters, then a semi final hat trick and two in the final including that flick up and volley?

There is some argument that the champions League has overtaken the world cup and so what Messi and Ronaldo do there is comparable. Maybe, but they also have this tournament set up so they have the best possible chance to play in the latter stages of it every year, supported by the best players.

If Pele wasn't brutally kicked out of another two world cups he probably would have had another couple of winner medals at that level.

Anyway, I haven't seen Messi or Ronaldo helping prisoners of war escape the Nazis as yet, have you?

Not disagreeing with your assessment of Pele as he is undoubtedly the best player of all time in my opinion too.
But did he really get kicked out of two World Cups? I can only think of one. He got 3 winners medals I think.

[Shrekko]

Nothing funnier than reading old codgers talking about players of the past and giving it all the 'he couldn't lace his boots' stuff. How often did they actually see these guys even on telly? Apart from that it's impossible to compare players of different era's seeing as football has changed beyond recognition over the years. I've watched a few games from the good old days on TV and it's basically played at walking pace.

I also think that this thing about players having to win World Cups on their own being the barometer is completely outdated. Players are usually shattered after playing 70 games prior to these showpiece events.

Messi is IMO head an shoulders above anyone in THIS ERA.

[Iggy Pope]

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Nothing funnier than reading old codgers talking about players of the past and giving it all the 'he couldn't lace his boots' stuff. How often did they actually see these guys even on telly? Apart from that it's impossible to compare players of different era's seeing as football has changed beyond recognition over the years. I've watched a few games from the good old days on TV and it's basically played at walking pace.

I also think that this thing about players having to win World Cups on their own being the barometer is completely outdated. Players are usually shattered after playing 70 games prior to these showpiece events.

Messi is IMO head an shoulders above anyone in THIS ERA.

See much of him, do you?

[CockneyRebel]

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For me Maradona is quite simply the greatest player ever.

Pity he was such a knob

[Sylar]

Bayern 1-0 Barcelona - 7 minutes gone.

1-3 on aggregate.