Who are you likely to support regarding club ownership?

[Global Hibby]

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It took them 11 months to thrash out a deal with the bank. If STF had just paid it back with no discount then that would taken less than 11 seconds for the bank to agree.

Was closer to 11 weeks actually

[greenginger]

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Hibs need an immediate cash investment of 3.5m by my calculations to put it on solid foundation to go forward.
1.5m for working capital and 2m investment.

I am not talking about loans either.........shareholders loaning money to a football club is detrimental to the club and provides a noose around its neck. That is a major reason the club is in difficulty.

To my mind the fans additional money should be ring-fenced to make a measurable difference to the club........as an example.....why cant those funds just be used to enhance the first team squad only.

The shareholders existing and new proposed in the shape of HSL...should be underwriting the issue...they are not............Thats a great weakness in my opinion.

Once that foundation is in place....one is able to change the cultural and the current business model.....the current culture model is survival............the business model is driven on a cost managment model base.

Those need to be stopped...........Maybe then we will get to the root cause and stop the continual repetitive symptom treating approach of the last decade.

First point , which shareholders are going to underwrite the new issue. I'm sure many will put in as much as they can reasonably afford. If they are forced to take up an extra tranch of unsold shares, that might put them off putting anything in.

Second, if you had been at the AGM the other night and listened to Stubbs, Dempster and George Craig I think you would have realised there has been a cultural change in the club already, and the business model changes are underway.

[marinello59]

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That is not true re gifted the club 4.5 million.....

You clearly believe that to be the case and I think it is wrong for the current owners to represent it like this!

The bank wanted out of football...the debt was already written off by them when Rangers went bust. Anything they collected from the various clubs in Scotland was a bonus !

I don't know whether to describe your last paragraph as spin or fantasy. I love how you have reappeared after months of inactivity here pretending to be open minded when you really just want to trash HSL. A bit dishonest no?
You made big promises about cash injection before, are you going to do that now?

[Global Hibby]

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Disnae matter what you think now, its done and dusted and we have what we have. You can either invest or not, the same choice we all have now.

I think it is a long way off being done and dusted......Hibs have around 8000 season ticket holders........plus other fans who are not.

the current number who have posted an interest is around 700 based on the latest statement......that leaves a huge number who have not expressed an interest.

[greenginger]

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I think it is a long way off being done and dusted......Hibs have around 8000 season ticket holders........plus other fans who are not.

the current number who have posted an interest is around 700 based on the latest statement......that leaves a huge number who have not expressed an interest.

I've not expressed an interest yet , share applications are not being accepted before 2nd February. I will definitely be buying more shares.

My wife, three children , and one grandchild will all become new shareholders in Hibernian F C. Their interest has not been noted yet either.

Am I wrong in thinking you hope the share issue will be a failure ?

[ano hibby]

The numbers Rod put up at the AGM IIRC were 2 balloon payments of £1.8m and £2.5m in 2017 (again IIRC) & 2020. So add on some interest and you get to at least £4.5m due over the next 5 years. This was roughly half our £9m debt under the old scenario. This was also why the refinancing had to happen now because we couldn't have afforded the first of these payments IMO.

Over the next 5 years we pay £500k pa so £2.5m hence a 'saving' of c. £2.0m over the next 5 years and £4m+ overall.

These are the numbers behind why I believe the debt refinance was a good deal for the club.
The other reason I think its a good deal is the share issue is new money for the club as STF gets diluted.

The shakedown accusation comes about, again IMO, because of a belief from HOH et al that the club should get away scot free from all obligations for nothing as a 'freebie' for mismanagement and because the fans have suffered too much (which of course is true). This not happening Kano called morally wrong in the EEN. I fundamentally disagree with him on this. In the real world unless you do a Sevco/newco route you have to pay for mismanagement. We, IMO, are lucky we have lower debt & significant but manageable repayments. Hence the club saying 'Hibs are a club that pays its debts'.

Now should RP have gone as a result of said mismanagement..yes IMO. But he's not & I can live with that as his most recent decisions..GC, LD & AS have been good ones so far as I can see.

One thing I really can't make my mind up about is the right ultimate ownership model. Wednesday's AGM sent a shiver down my spine when I thought about that and fan ownership.

[Stonewall]

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All we do here is provide a platform for Hibs fans of all viewpoints to have their say and as such we don't act as fan leaders or spokespeople. That doesn't stop some having a go at us because they don't like what they read here but we really have no editorial policy or stance. It's up to the members here to make up their own minds.
I agree about the divisions, it is frustrating, particularly when there is no need. We managed to decide the future of our nation with much less vitriol then some are throwing about regarding the future of our football club.

And your collective statement of 29 May re Petrie wasn't editorialising?

[Global Hibby]

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I've not expressed an interest yet , share applications are not being accepted before 2nd February. I will definitely be buying more shares.

My wife, three children , and one grandchild will all become new shareholders in Hibernian F C. Their interest has not been noted yet either.

Am I wrong in thinking you hope the share issue will be a failure ?

I hope the share issue is a success........i am a Hibs fan......I want to see the club being successful.....so you are wrong in thinking that.....fantastic re legacy and rest assured i am doing the same as you.

[ano hibby]

Normally the largest shareholders or bankers or significant new shareholders underwrite a share issue.
Obviously banks are out & I assume you don't mean STF underwrite an issue designed to dilute himself.
Do you mean Global Hibby you would have been prepared to underwrite?

Unless of course you wanted RP to underwrite more than his corner:)

[blackpoolhibs]

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I think it is a long way off being done and dusted......Hibs have around 8000 season ticket holders........plus other fans who are not.

the current number who have posted an interest is around 700 based on the latest statement......that leaves a huge number who have not expressed an interest.

It is done and dusted, this is the scheme we are going forward with. You me and the rest of the support are either in or they are not. The scheme you think would work better will not be anything we can choose because thats not on the table now or in the future.

you mention 700 have posted an interest so far, you can add me to that but i have had nothing through the door yet. Balance that to the 30 people at most who are against this and could be bothered enough to protest against it plus the huge number that have not protested against it.

I had high hopes at the beginning when you first arrived on the scene, but i can see right through you matey.

[marinello59]

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And your collective statement of 29 May re Petrie wasn't editorialising?

Fair point.
A one off from us and something we obviously felt very strongly about. We though long and hard before making that statement as it is really not what we usually do here.

[tamig]

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I don't know whether to describe your last paragraph as spin or fantasy. I love how you have reappeared after months of inactivity here pretending to be open minded when you really just want to trash HSL. A bit dishonest no?
You made big promises about cash injection before, are you going to do that now?

Not sure what your issue is with the last para. That's about the size of it so far as Lloyds are concerned.

[Global Hibby]

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I don't know whether to describe your last paragraph as spin or fantasy. I love how you have reappeared after months of inactivity here pretending to be open minded when you really just want to trash HSL. A bit dishonest no?
You made big promises about cash injection before, are you going to do that now?

Marinello, can you tell me how I have trashed HSL ? i said they had a foundation to build from did i not ?

In terms of promises re cash......i was approached and backed that approach with committed cash. There are some people who post on here who knew of the group as do some of the participants in HSL !!

The group was unsuccessful clearly despite ticking all the boxes !!

So, as far as promises re cash Marinello they were followed through with...... Trust that puts the record straight !!

[marinello59]

T

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Marinello, can you tell me how I have trashed HSL ? i said they had a foundation to build from did i not ?

In terms of promises re cash......i was approached and backed that approach with committed cash. There are some people who post on here who knew of the group as do some of the participants in HSL !!

The group was unsuccessful clearly despite ticking all the boxes !!

So, as far as promises re cash Marinello they were followed through with...... Trust that puts the record straight !!

Glad to hear you put cash in then. I apologise for assuming that you didn't. That is a healthy sum you originally pledged.

[matty_f]

I think it's disingenuous to label STF's tenure at the club as mismanagement. There have been mistakes but there have also been successes, and the football club we have an opportunity to own is significantly changed for the better from the club that STF took over.

We are, temporarily IMHO, in an unacceptable division, however the statement at the AGM about us being a Premiership club is correct - and we literally will be before too long (again, IMHO).

We have a great stadium and top class training facilities. The assertion that we have been grossly mismanaged to the point where it should somehow render any debt void is ridiculous. The notion that because we got relegated, STF should just take the hit and hand over the club for nothing is equally ridiculous.

[Global Hibby]

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T

Glad to hear you put cash in then. I apologise for assuming that you didn't. That is a healthy sum you originally pledged.

But the bid failed though sadly !

[Global Hibby]

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I think it's disingenuous to label STF's tenure at the club as mismanagement. There have been mistakes but there have also been successes, and the football club we have an opportunity to own is significantly changed for the better from the club that STF took over.

We are, temporarily IMHO, in an unacceptable division, however the statement at the AGM about us being a Premiership club is correct - and we literally will be before too long (again, IMHO).

We have a great stadium and top class training facilities. The assertion that we have been grossly mismanaged to the point where it should somehow render any debt void is ridiculous. The notion that because we got relegated, STF should just take the hit and hand over the club for nothing is equally ridiculous.

Thats your view and i respect that Matty........its all about opinions and views..........i deal with shareholders every day from FTSE top 100 and down to businesses where the shareholder participates in the business.
The ones who make the fewest mistakes and have a the greater success are those that put cash in as equity and not as a loan.

At no point have I said STF should hand over the club for nothing !!!!! unfair for you to accuse me of that in the public domain Matty and trust you will apologise for that false accusation.

[Global Hibby]

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Normally the largest shareholders or bankers or significant new shareholders underwrite a share issue.
Obviously banks are out & I assume you don't mean STF underwrite an issue designed to dilute himself.
Do you mean Global Hibby you would have been prepared to underwrite?

Unless of course you wanted RP to underwrite more than his corner:)

if i were a member of Buy Hibs or HSL as a director...i would see it as my duty to underwrite the plan i believe in.

I do question why the directors of HSL are not doing this to be honest !!

[ano hibby]

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I think it's disingenuous to label STF's tenure at the club as mismanagement. There have been mistakes but there have also been successes, and the football club we have an opportunity to own is significantly changed for the better from the club that STF took over.

We are, temporarily IMHO, in an unacceptable division, however the statement at the AGM about us being a Premiership club is correct - and we literally will be before too long (again, IMHO).

We have a great stadium and top class training facilities. The assertion that we have been grossly mismanaged to the point where it should somehow render any debt void is ridiculous. The notion that because we got relegated, STF should just take the hit and hand over the club for nothing is equally ridiculous.

I referred to mismanagement in my post. Wasnt meaning STF as he wasn't managing. I meant RP and in particular the last 5/6 years containing some humiliating results and obvious downward spiral ending in relegation.
Agree with your last point as mentioned above & this is where I believe Kano is incorrect with his 'morally wrong' chat.

[greenginger]

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I hope the share issue is a success........i am a Hibs fan......I want to see the club being successful.....so you are wrong in thinking that.....fantastic re legacy and rest assured i am doing the same as you.

Great, glad to hear it, welcome aboard and apologies for inferring you were not committed to the cause.

The share issue is underway and won't be stopped for HoH.

I'm sure adjustments can be made as things progress if they are required.

[greenginger]

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if i were a member of Buy Hibs or HSL as a director...i would see it as my duty to underwrite the plan i believe in.

I do question why the directors of HSL are not doing this to be honest !!

You are saying you have got to wealthy to be part of the new ownership scheme management.

Its meant to be Community Ownership. There is a maximum investment per individual condition.

[ano hibby]

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if i were a member of Buy Hibs or HSL as a director...i would see it as my duty to underwrite the plan i believe in.

I do question why the directors of HSL are not doing this to be honest !!

IMO underwriting an issue of this nature isn't practical. HSL has no idea how long it will take the ordinary fans direct debits to get to £2.5m. Normally an underwriter has a commitment for weeks/ month or two as shareholders decide whether or not to step up but here we're talking years.
Don't know finances of HSL directors but doesnt look like they've been chosen based on their Balance Sheets.

[Global Hibby]

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Great, glad to hear it, welcome aboard and apologies for inferring you were not committed to the cause.

The share issue is underway and won't be stopped for HoH.

I'm sure adjustments can be made as things progress if they are required.

apology gratefully received :-)

My decision is all emotional though and legacy story telling......its not based on business viewpoint lol

I recall a poster named Jack saying that no outside bids will be considered fully until the path chosen by the owners is pursued......how correct he was and HOH wont be able to stop it either !!

[matty_f]

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I referred to mismanagement in my post. Wasnt meaning STF as he wasn't managing. I meant RP and in particular the last 5/6 years containing some humiliating results and obvious downward spiral ending in relegation.
Agree with your last point as mentioned above & this is where I believe Kano is incorrect with his 'morally wrong' chat.

There have been a few references across the forums and in the press regarding mismanagement so please don't feel I was singling your reference out.

HoH seem to be arguing that there is only debt because the club was mismanaged, which is why it shouldn't be repaid. I read Global Hibby's point to be similar.

[matty_f]

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Thats your view and i respect that Matty........its all about opinions and views..........i deal with shareholders every day from FTSE top 100 and down to businesses where the shareholder participates in the business.
The ones who make the fewest mistakes and have a the greater success are those that put cash in as equity and not as a loan.

At no point have I said STF should hand over the club for nothing !!!!! unfair for you to accuse me of that in the public domain Matty and trust you will apologise for that false accusation.

I didn't say you said that, nor did I refer to you in my post.

Shareholders lending businesses money is common practice, and in my banking days I regularly saw business owners lend money to their businesses.

[Global Hibby]

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IMO underwriting an issue of this nature isn't practical. HSL has no idea how long it will take the ordinary fans direct debits to get to £2.5m. Normally an underwriter has a commitment for weeks/ month or two as shareholders decide whether or not to step up but here we're talking years.
Don't know finances of HSL directors but doesnt look like they've been chosen based on their Balance Sheets.

I agree with you.......The club needs a substantial amount of new cash to come in though and quickly.....which is a problem.

Is a strange one though, that founding directors are also directors of Hibs FC..........can not get my head around that one and the independent line that is portrayed.

whats your take on that ?

[ano hibby]

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There have been a few references across the forums and in the press regarding mismanagement so please don't feel I was singling your reference out.

HoH seem to be arguing that there is only debt because the club was mismanaged, which is why it shouldn't be repaid. I read Global Hibby's point to be similar.

It's fine, I wanted to clarify anyway.
Whilst STFs overall legacy will still be a positive for the reasons you cite, his one his error was not looking to change the CEO earlier, obviously IMO.

[Global Hibby]

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You are saying you have got to wealthy to be part of the new ownership scheme management.

Its meant to be Community Ownership. There is a maximum investment per individual condition.

Am not saying that at all.......i was asked a direct question asking would i underwrite it and i said yes as i believe it would be my duty as a director to do that.

Maximum Investment is a good model for this approach and am looking forward to seeing the results.

[ano hibby]

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I agree with you.......The club needs a substantial amount of new cash to come in though and quickly.....which is a problem.

Is a strange one though, that founding directors are also directors of Hibs FC..........can not get my head around that one and the independent line that is portrayed.

whats your take on that ?

I'm not sure that substantial cash is needed straight away though. Say we raise £2.5m this month. What do we do..instantly double Stubbs budget..?..wouldn't be prudent unless you felt it would lead to such a superior squad that revenue would go up sustainably by the same amount. Don't think Hibs are a speculate to accumulate club.

I actually think getting share money in smaller tranches is good as it will lead to more sustainable increases in players wages etc. On a turnover of £7m 50% wages to turnover, £500kpa would lead to a 13% inc in wages..that would help secure better players for longer and should lead to gradual outperformance rather than 1-off.

On your second point, conflict of interest. I think it comes down to trust. I trust the new regime & I take at face value LD saying at the AGM that the reason she is on HSL Board is because she has experience of doing it at Motherwell.

[ano hibby]

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I'm not sure that substantial cash is needed straight away though. Say we raise £2.5m this month. What do we do..instantly double Stubbs budget..?..wouldn't be prudent unless you felt it would lead to such a superior squad that revenue would go up sustainably by the same amount. Don't think Hibs are a speculate to accumulate club.

I actually think getting share money in smaller tranches is good as it will lead to more sustainable increases in players wages etc. On a turnover of £7m 50% wages to turnover, £500kpa would lead to a 13% inc in wages..that would help secure better players for longer and should lead to gradual outperformance rather than 1-off.

On your second point, conflict of interest. I think it comes down to trust. I trust the new regime & I take at face value LD saying at the AGM that the reason she is on HSL Board is because she has experience of doing it at Motherwell.

Just realised I chose £500k in my example..not to be confused with STFs £500k payments :)