Hands On Hibs - No Substance. Unhelpful Voice

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.buyhibs.org/meeting-with-...-chairman-hsl/

Buy Hibs statement in full.

Total nonsense from start to finish. They actually think they have some rights or some power here, which they don't.

Pat Stanton still appears to be their chairman, he needs to sort this lot out or make clear he has resigned and walked away, his association with this lot do him no favours.

[Smartie]

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

[jacomo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.buyhibs.org/meeting-with-...-chairman-hsl/

Buy Hibs statement in full.

But Pat Stanton has jumped ship? And Charlie Reid - a prominent Petrie oot! voice - is on HSL.

Ultimately it doesn't matter that BuyHibs discredited themselves by echoing the unfounded allegations about asset stripping. It all comes down to money - BuyHibs don't have any and they are whistling in the wind.

[jacomo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

Isis are consistent too but it doesn't make them any more palatable!

[Mikey]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Seems you're wrong again.

Did you manage to find out who HOH got their independent financial advice from?

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Am i, how many would you say are backing these claims?

He won't answer you. He prefers 'snappy' one liners.

[Turkish Green]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

You are not alone. I too run my own business and find the corporate stuff (VAT, corporation tax, salaries, etc) beyond me at times.

It seems to me that HOH have been around for decades but have achieved very little if anything. I do not trust Petrie, but I ain't falling for the old adage of: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Oscar T Grouch]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

They have also consistently been asked to show evidence for their claims and not once have they produced anything. If they are going to make claims about people and businesses, they must back those claims up with proof, but they just seem to push anyone asking for it out the way and shout louder. While this is a way to be heard, it is not the way to win an argument or debate.

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

The detail isn't too tricky.

First issue is the debt - after we agreed the deal with the bank the holding compnay were left with a total debt of £9.5 million. £4.5 million of that has been swapped for equity in Hibs and so effectively written off in terms of being a sum due to be repaid. Just to be clear on this, the owners of the holding company have written off actual money that has been handed over previously either to the club or the bank, in return for some more shares.

So, new shares are now being created and offered for sale by Hibs, with the proceeds you pay going straight to Hibs. This creates what you call dilution which means the overall value of the existing shareholders is less because you have potentially about double the shares in issue. Again important, if there was any shenanigans going on the current owners would surely not be agreeing to dilute the value of their holdings?

Whether you find a way to buy direct or whether you join HSL who will buy shares direct, the money still goes to the club. HSL is essentially a donation in exchange for a memership. They will use youir money to buy shares that they will hold.

Focus appears to be on the repayment of the debt. Well, it's now £5 million instead of the full £9.5 million so it would be wierd to write all that off, accept dilution on shares and then have a repayment rate or term that screwed us wouldn't it?

The focus is also on sporting ambition which the money is to be used for - and the possibility of it being used to repay debt. Even if it was that is still an operating expense of the football club and it doesn't matter which income stream you take that part from.

If you have £5 from season ticket money and £5 from share income and you need to repay £2 of that to existing debt you are left with £8 for other things. You are left with £8 for other things regardless of which pot you make the debt payment from.

They are determined to see a con here and are ignoring the very big issues such as debt write off and dilution to focus on the wording of sporting ambition and the margins on a £5m debt repayment.

[blackpoolhibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

He won't answer you. He prefers 'snappy' one liners.

I live in hope.

[kano]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Am i, how many would you say are backing these claims?

I thought you would've knew that? You seem to think you know everything else about HOH. Its now confirmed two supporters groups are not happy with the plans. Have any supporters group come out and backed it? Could you tell me how many people are in they groups, if they exist? Have the shareholders association backed it? What about the supporters association at the Hibs club?

[blackpoolhibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I thought you would've knew that? You seem to think you know everything else about HOH. Its now confirmed two supporters groups are not happy with the plans. Have any supporters group come out and backed it? Could you tell me how many people are in they groups, if they exist? Have the shareholders association backed it? What about the supporters association at the Hibs club?

Again you have failed to answer the question, do you have the backing of the supporters association, do you have the support of the internet fans forums?

How many members do both supporters groups have, is Pat Stanton still your chairman? EVERY hibs fan i talk to think your groups are very strange. They fire off accusations but whenever they are presented with the facts, you never answer them but move on to something else, something else thats unsubstantiated rubbish.

[schinkenotto]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

"Slightly misguided" is putting it mildly.I used to have respect for some of the people involved,but HoH seem now to be run by intemperate fanatics,who are quite happy to make unfounded allegations against STF and indulge in gratuitous sexism against LD,which they seem to think is clever,while objecting to what they consider to be "abuse" against them.

If their deluded nonsense and bile disrupt what I genuinely believe (after too many false starts) is progress on and off the park,these people will not be forgiven.

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I thought you would've knew that? You seem to think you know everything else about HOH. Its now confirmed two supporters groups are not happy with the plans. Have any supporters group come out and backed it? Could you tell me how many people are in they groups, if they exist? Have the shareholders association backed it? What about the supporters association at the Hibs club?

I think calling either of HoH and BuyHibs as supporters groups is pushing it. They both seem to be a handful of individuals with little wider support.

I've no idea about the other groups and I'm not really into all that anyway, we are just fans of the club. They certainly haven't come out with any nonsense reasons why we should be against it.

The Buyhibs chairman supported it by the way.

[Lurkio]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The detail isn't too tricky.

First issue is the debt - after we agreed the deal with the bank the holding compnay were left with a total debt of £9.5 million. £4.5 million of that has been swapped for equity in Hibs and so effectively written off in terms of being a sum due to be repaid. Just to be clear on this, the owners of the holding company have written off actual money that has been handed over previously either to the club or the bank, in return for some more shares.

This is the only bit where I have a concern about the deal. It suggests that the holding company lent the club the full £6.3M to pay off the bank debt in full. Then agreed to write off £4.5M, thus reducing the overall debt to £5M.

I think it was "Mikey" who previously stated that the settlement with the bank was £1.872M (about 30%, the same as achieved by Dundee Utd and Aberdeen). That number would fit in with the £5M now owed to the holding company. (£3M originally owed, plus £1.872M, plus costs).

What may be the essence of the deal is that the holding company "bought" the £6.3M bank debt for £1.872. At that point the club owed the full £9.5M to the holding company, which then wrote off the claimed £4.5M, and awarding itself more shares in return.

IMO the reality is that the holding company has spent £1.872M which has been added to the club's debt, and hasn't written off any actual money. It was only the bank who has written of any real money (£4.4M+).

------------------------------------
That said, the rest of the deal looks a good one for fans. The club has reduced its overall indebtedness thanks to the Bank and STF. £2.5M for 51% of the club is good value.

However, I'd still like to get more information about the true nature of the deal with the bank and the claims of write offs from the holding company, before committing to the HSL offer. Perhaps we will know more from the AGM.

[kano]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Again you have failed to answer the question, do you have the backing of the supporters association, do you have the support of the internet fans forums?

How many members do both supporters groups have, is Pat Stanton still your chairman? EVERY hibs fan i talk to think your groups are very strange. They fire off accusations but whenever they are presented with the facts, you never answer them but move on to something else, something else thats unsubstantiated rubbish.

Can you answer my questions? Funny that, every Hibs supporter I speak to including at the game on Saturday i've yet to hear anyone back Farmer/Petrie or their new proposals. Sorry, no one has counted how many activists. If you had been brave enough to come to any meetings you would have a better idea. I would guess at over one hundred. That's people prepared to go out and do something, not sit in the house with their cats typing on a laptop. Pat Stanton was never HOH chairman. HOH don't have a chairman, please keep up. Ive no idea how many people are members of BuyHibs you would need to ask them.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This is the only bit where I have a concern about the deal. It suggests that the holding company lent the club the full £6.3M to pay off the bank debt in full. Then agreed to write off £4.5M, thus reducing the overall debt to £5M.

I think it was "Mikey" who previously stated that the settlement with the bank was £1.872M (about 30%, the same as achieved by Dundee Utd and Aberdeen). That number would fit in with the £5M now owed to the holding company. (£3M originally owed, plus £1.872M, plus costs).

What may be the essence of the deal is that the holding company "bought" the £6.3M bank debt for £1.872. At that point the club owed the full £9.5M to the holding company, which then wrote off the claimed £4.5M, and awarding itself more shares in return.

IMO the reality is that the holding company has spent £1.872M which has been added to the club's debt, and hasn't written off any actual money. It was only the bank who has written of any real money (£4.4M+).

------------------------------------
That said, the rest of the deal looks a good one for fans. The club has reduced its overall indebtedness thanks to the Bank and STF. £2.5M for 51% of the club is good value.

However, I'd still like to get more information about the true nature of the deal with the bank and the claims of write offs from the holding company, before committing to the HSL offer. Perhaps we will know more from the AGM.

My take on the debt situation is this:-

The bank debt would have been about £6.25m in December (taking the July figures, less about £65k for repayments since then). Adding the holding company debt at July of £2.75 gives us £9m. Halving that, which is what they're telling us they did, gives the £4.5m conversion from loans to shares.

In that scenario, the bank has written off almost nothing, and the Holding Company £4.5m.

[Andy74]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This is the only bit where I have a concern about the deal. It suggests that the holding company lent the club the full £6.3M to pay off the bank debt in full. Then agreed to write off £4.5M, thus reducing the overall debt to £5M.

I think it was "Mikey" who previously stated that the settlement with the bank was £1.872M (about 30%, the same as achieved by Dundee Utd and Aberdeen). That number would fit in with the £5M now owed to the holding company. (£3M originally owed, plus £1.872M, plus costs).

What may be the essence of the deal is that the holding company "bought" the £6.3M bank debt for £1.872. At that point the club owed the full £9.5M to the holding company, which then wrote off the claimed £4.5M, and awarding itself more shares in return.

IMO the reality is that the holding company has spent £1.872M which has been added to the club's debt, and hasn't written off any actual money. It was only the bank who has written of any real money (£4.4M+).

------------------------------------
That said, the rest of the deal looks a good one for fans. The club has reduced its overall indebtedness thanks to the Bank and STF. £2.5M for 51% of the club is good value.

However, I'd still like to get more information about the true nature of the deal with the bank and the claims of write offs from the holding company, before committing to the HSL offer. Perhaps we will know more from the AGM.

If I'm with you are you suggesting that the bank accepted just £1.8 million of the £6.3 million it was owed?

Despite us making payments and being able to continue to make payments and having assets to cover the figure?

I haven't seen anyhting suggesting this is the reality at all. The statements at the time said the bank had been paid direct. There may have been some saving for early repayment but not to the extent you are talking about.

£6.3 m bank debt and existing £3m holding compnay debt is close to the £9.5m considering we have probably lost more money since the accounts and maybe got a bit of the debt reduced.

Intrigued as to where you got those figures?

[Sergio sledge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.buyhibs.org/meeting-with-...-chairman-hsl/

Buy Hibs statement in full.

They are annoyed that they are not involved in this. They only have themselves to blame as they refused to meet with the club when offered the chance. Perhaps if they had me with the club at that stage then they could have been part of HSL and this "divide" might not have happened.

They launched too early in an effort to gazzump the clubs plans and were found out for having no plan or detail. They've been offered the chance for the fans to own 51% of the club with all the proceeds going to the club and not existing shareholders. I fail to see how people think this is a bad idea, particularly people who previously wanted this exact thing.

As to their statement that HSL will not be able to get directors onto the board, surely if the majority shareholders vote to remove or add directors to the board at AGM's or do a Dave King and call a GM, then it'll happen?

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Can you answer my questions? Funny that, every Hibs supporter I speak to including at the game on Saturday i've yet to hear anyone back Farmer/Petrie or their new proposals. Sorry, no one has counted how many activists. If you had been brave enough to come to any meetings you would have a better idea. I would guess at over one hundred. That's people prepared to go out and do something, not sit in the house with their cats typing on a laptop. Pat Stanton was never HOH chairman. HOH don't have a chairman, please keep up. Ive no idea how many people are members of BuyHibs you would need to ask them.

Why is that so important?

Most of us would prefer to sit and listen to the arguments, backed up by facts and respected opinion, and then make a balanced decision.

[kano]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If I'm with you are you suggesting that the bank accepted just £1.8 million of the £6.3 million it was owed?

Despite us making payments and being able to continue to make payments and having assets to cover the figure?

I haven't seen anyhting suggesting this is the reality at all. The statements at the time said the bank had been paid direct. There may have been some saving for early repayment but not to the extent you are talking about.

£6.3 m bank debt and existing £3m holding compnay debt is close to the £9.5m considering we have probably lost more money since the accounts and maybe got a bit of the debt reduced.

Intrigued as to where you got those figures?

Why cant Farmer/Petrie tell us the deal with the bank. They could also include the details of the 5m owed to the 'holding company?' Then no one needs to second guess anything. Or is that too transparent for them?

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Why cant Farmer/Petrie tell us the deal with the bank. They could also include the details of the 5m owed to the 'holding company?' Then no one needs to second guess anything. Or is that too transparent for them?

It's quite simple. Read my post above.

The loans have been halved. The costs of servicing those loans have therefore been halved.

[Brightside]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I thought you would've knew that? You seem to think you know everything else about HOH. Its now confirmed two supporters groups are not happy with the plans. Have any supporters group come out and backed it? Could you tell me how many people are in they groups, if they exist? Have the shareholders association backed it? What about the supporters association at the Hibs club?

HOH and BuyHibs are not supporters groups.

[kano]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Why is that so important?

Most of us would prefer to sit and listen to the arguments, backed up by facts and respected opinion, and then make a balanced decision.

That's your choice and i respect that. Its important to be out there as the majority of Hibs fans, well certainly the ones i attend the games every week with don't go on Hibs forums.

[greenginger]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.buyhibs.org/meeting-with-...-chairman-hsl/

Buy Hibs statement in full.

To quote one paragraph,

" We were told that there is no mechanism for HSL to elect a director onto the Board of Hibernian Football Club denying the fans the opportunity to have a direct influence. "

Have they not heard of the two fan elected directors ? Or is their idea of a fan rep. different from the rep. all fans get a say in electing.

[kano]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's quite simple. Read my post above.

The loans have been halved. The costs of servicing those loans have therefore been halved.

So these details are available? Where can i see them?

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

So these details are available? Where can i see them?

You can use the accounts, and the club statements.

[Brightside]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That's your choice and i respect that. Its important to be out there as the majority of Hibs fans, well certainly the ones i attend the games every week with don't go on Hibs forums.

So you attend the games with like minded individuals. Not really a poll is it. Put a poll up on here and Bounce and see what you get.

[Lurkio]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If I'm with you are you suggesting that the bank accepted just £1.8 million of the £6.3 million it was owed?

Despite us making payments and being able to continue to make payments and having assets to cover the figure?

I haven't seen anyhting suggesting this is the reality at all. The statements at the time said the bank had been paid direct. There may have been some saving for early repayment but not to the extent you are talking about.

£6.3 m bank debt and existing £3m holding compnay debt is close to the £9.5m considering we have probably lost more money since the accounts and maybe got a bit of the debt reduced.

Intrigued as to where you got those figures?

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Lloyds want out of football. That is why deals have been agreed with Dundee Utd, Aberdeen and Kilmarnock. Based of numbers from those clubs' accounts it looks like the Bank discounted their debt down to 30% which is in line with the £1.872M that Mikey quoted earlier. The other clubs were also servicing their bank debts before the deals were made so Hibs is not unique in paying their bills when they fall due, unlike another city club.

[BSEJVT]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Why cant Farmer/Petrie tell us the deal with the bank. They could also include the details of the 5m owed to the 'holding company?' Then no one needs to second guess anything. Or is that too transparent for them?

Ever heard of confidentiality agreements?

There is no way the Bank would permit them to divulge such details or you would have a queue from Lands End to John O'Groats of companies and individuals seeking to do the same and telling the Bank you did it for Hibs why not me?

It seems to me that either neither of these two factions have anyone bright enough or interested enough to think through the situation and work it out or maybe anyone with enough integrity having done so to admit to the situation is as portrayed by the club.

These folk have the gall to call themselves Hibs supporters, they couldn't be doing more to damage the club or its reputation if they were setting the stand on fire.

Guys with their own agendas, enjoying their minute in the spotlight and not prepared to give it up.