Fan Buy Out Launched/BuyHibs/Q&A Answers

[BroxburnHibee]

That SDS survey was heavily weighted to get the answers they wanted.

Using it as a basis to come up with this idea is not a good start IMO.

[flash]

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That SDS survey was heavily weighted to get the answers they wanted.

Using it as a basis to come up with this idea is not a good start IMO.

I agree. It's one thing asking people to hand over cash they can't really afford to keep their club alive.

It's quite another when it's simply to get rid of an owner some people think should go.

[Hibby D]

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I think We have to Give Ms Dempster and her new regime a chance to spin things round. Hibs have identified the rot and put in place steps to remedy the club positive change, i think we will see the fruits of that soon.

Agreed

[Tyler Durden]

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One big difference between this attempt at fan ownership and Foundation of Hearts set up.

They had the benefit of writing off the vast majority of their debt ( by shafting all and sundry) before stumping up and buying their club on the cheap.

Hibs debt isn't going to magically disappear is it.

We're probably not a million miles away in terms of numbers. Hearts had to come up with £5m over 3 years IIRC.

Hibs debt is c£7m and there is an appetite from Lloyds for Hibs to make them an offer for it. With a change of ownership that could happen albeit I'd guess the success of this bid is reliant on Farmer getting little or nothing back for his prior investments. There is a lot of emphasis on "if it's not about money"....

[hibs0666]

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I agree. It's one thing asking people to hand over cash they can't really afford to keep their club alive.

It's quite another when it's simply to get rid of an owner some people think should go.

Tom Farmer is not getting any younger. Either you hope that he sells the club to someone like him or you try to take the destiny of the club into the hands of the support.

[marinello59]

I'm looking forward to the detail being provided later. I wonder if it will include 'buy in' figures at all. The amount set could be key and of course it has to be something lead by people who can unite all of the support. Having Pat Stanton fronting things is a decent start.

[Steve20]

I have no idea how these things work. Would fans put money in on top of season tickets, buying strips etc.? I'm not against it but how many fans could afford to do that on a constant basis?

If that's not what it is, then forget what I just said above.

[Matty_Jack04]

There definatley needs more detail, I don't think I support the fan ownership idea yeah it's ok as a last resort like hearts but looking at that they actually failed to take control and needed budge to sort it out over a time period before they take control that's when you can make a valid case of it working or not.

I'd be more interested in something working along side what's happening now and making a success of the changes already carried out, maybe even an offer for STF to dilute his ownership with fans interested contributing monthly, or other ways for extra investment

I think completley taking out someone like STF is madness but as I said if more details where to come out Id maybe change my opinion

[Seveno]

It will be interesting to see the next step. There is not going to be any support for this bid until we know who is behind it and that it is credible. Having one of the greatest ever Hibs players to front it does not in itself give it credibilty.

I really hope that the people behind the plan do have the know how and backing to get our support and to engage with STF. I personally do not believe that he necesarily wants all his money back and that he may well be prepared to write off the debt if he is presented with a sustainable model that has the backing of the support. He can be as tight as a duck's a*** when it comes to his own money but, when it comes to a worthy cause, he can be a man of extraordinary generosity. Let's hope that HFC becomes a beneficiary of one of his many acts of philanthropy.

[RyeSloan]

I need to understand what community ownership actually means before I can say too much in this.

My gut reaction though is that it sticks in the craw a touch how many times it's suggested we will be copying the Hearts model...they don't have a model...they needed funds to bail out a bankrupt club and a millionaire to make even that stick. Hibs are a million miles from that scenario.

Let's see the detail.

[s.a.m]

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STF won't write off our debt. I really hope he takes this seriously and considers this bid.

We are playing championship football because our owners penny pinched on players the proof is where we are! How can folk say that Petrie is doing his job when we are where we are?

We have a fairly big debt and the club are skint. What Petrie did do well was set a good foundation for whoever was to take over. Sadly they both didn't want to go and now we are here. I'm still not convinced STF is wanting out. I may be wrong but something tells me he's holding out for something.

In this day and age he won't get anywhere near what he's wanting. He may have to cut his losses and take what he can.

If he really does want to hand the club over to the community then noes the time. I hope the offer is reasonable for both parties to sit and discus it seriously! STF will want as much as possible and rightly so. But also the buyer will want as much money kept aside to aid the debt and funding of the club.

I want Hibs to be in a better place and it's fair to say the current owners haven't delivered for a long time! No shame admitting they have it wrong and finally move on.

Football is changing at a rapid pace and football models all over the world are changing, we have been stuck in the same place for too long now so new owners will be welcomed by me. The biggest thing people fear is change, yet without change we wouldn't have the world we have now!!

I say good luck, and let's see how this pans out.


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We're where we are because of managerial and player failure, not penny-pinching. As someone else has said, we spend more than most of our competitors.

As a future fan owner, would you be willing to extend your Direct Debit to increase the wages of a star player who wants to leave, or to meet the wage demands of a signing target, or the price asked by a club? And how often would you be prepared to do this? Whatever the pros and cons of community ownership, an increase in spending power seems unlikely. The future for Hibs and the other Scottish clubs outside Celtic is going to be about spending within our means; the days of easy credit and lender tolerance to debt seem to be over.

[Bostonhibby]

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If it was a move towards community ownership with the fans having a sizeable stake in the club then I can see it being successful. If it's a case of asking for fans to put up cash so Mr X can acquire the club but he doesn't have the finances to do so himself then it will be less so.

Hopefully the finer points will be made clear when it's launched tomorrow. It should be interesting to hear what is said and what the plans are.

Been thinking about this recently and this is where I am - we shouldn't forget we are not in the yam situation where it was budge on her terms, or die - she is getting to wear the yam badge for a while and is pretty much guaranteed a profitable exit should she want to take it - if she wants to stay or do anything else its her call if they don't pay - not really fan ownership at all, it isn't now and might not be later.

I am all for buying into the club by a rights issue or a meaningful transfer of shares from the holding company if the money can be reinvested in the playing side of the club - if its about transferring it from one business person, or group of business person with the fans paying Farmer and Petrie for the privilege of the new owner enjoying a similar role to budge then its not the sort of progress I would wholeheartedly embrace.

Interesting times ahead I guess.

[Bostonhibby]

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I need to understand what community ownership actually means before I can say too much in this.

My gut reaction though is that it sticks in the craw a touch how many times it's suggested we will be copying the Hearts model...they don't have a model...they needed funds to bail out a bankrupt club and a millionaire to make even that stick. Hibs are a million miles from that scenario.

Let's see the detail.

Right on the money, however it's dressed up this is exactly what it is. The yam only have to stop paying to find out.

[lucky]

I think some are getting confused about what community ownership is. This group are looking to basically set up a trust fund which owns Hibs, ER and the training facility. Anyone who pays in will be a supporter/member of the trust and will be invited to elect a board of trustees who will run the trust. The trust will then appoint/ elect a board to run the club. It would mean that Hibernian is own by supporters as a collective. But none of individual fans paying in will own anything other than membership of the trust.

I'm not sure this is a model of ownership that Hibs fans want or need. Many supporters have given up on their STs some have even given up on the club. So I'm not sure that thousands will sign up to a monthly DD. Today's press conference at the HSA club will be interesting. It's an open invitation to Hibs fans and starts at 1200

[Bostonhibby]

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I think some are getting confused about what community ownership is. This group are looking to basically set up a trust fund which owns Hibs, ER and the training facility. Anyone who pays in will be a supporter/member of the trust and will be invited to elect a board of trustees who will run the trust. The trust will then appoint/ elect a board to run the club. It would mean that Hibernian is own by supporters as a collective. But none of individual fans paying in will own anything other than membership of the trust.

I'm not sure this is a model of ownership that Hibs fans want or need. Many supporters have given up on their STs some have even given up on the club. So I'm not sure that thousands will sign up to a monthly DD. Today's press conference at the HSA club will be interesting. It's an open invitation to Hibs fans and starts at 1200

This concept is well understood by me - I think where confusion / cynicism can arise is the reference to budge / the yam model - especially given how it actually works now and where it presently is - where they are not is the model described above and budge is basically their currently more acceptable Vlad. She is presently enjoying the same honeymoon as him, it is she alone who will decide if they move to any other form of ownership than her current choice, when, and on what terms, indeed if it is to be a model similar to that you mention.

[Andy74]

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I agree. It's one thing asking people to hand over cash they can't really afford to keep their club alive.

It's quite another when it's simply to get rid of an owner some people think should go.

Indeed and the more open club survey showed this wasn't if real interest to most fans so who's agenda are this lot pushing?

Wrong time as well. Winning games just now should be the only focus.

[Keith_M]

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No one on this thread has mentioned Petrie until you did. This is not about the Board its about the ownership. And you say penny pinching yet we had the 3rd biggest budget in the SPL last year.

...........

Petrie is an ever-present at the Club because of the backing of the current owner who, when asked, said he would love to have "100 Rod Petries".

That in itself is not enough reason to want ownership change, but it certainly helps.

[Islington Hibs]

I think we need to be careful here. While this could work, it is also fraught with difficulty. Success is about leadership and while elements of that may have been lacking, particularly with our chairman, a body of supporters does not necessarily have common purpose. The Board of any organisation needs time and the danger is that a fan ownership model is too reactive, to say a few bad results. Consistency is required in good and bad times.

Further Hibernian is not Stirling Albion. I.e the club has (or should have) serious ambition. That comes at a big price. I can not see how Hibs (or Hearts for that matter) can fund that ambition from a few thousand people paying £20 a month. That is fine but there needs to be an understanding that without a substantial sugar daddy ambition will be limited and the company risks being under-capitalised. For example if we currently have £7m of debt that is supportable to STF balance sheet. It is very questionable if it is under fan ownership. Football finances are a volatile business to say the least.

We also need to ensure the leaders of such a group are a) representative and b) qualified in what is a technical, time consuming and non amateur occupation.

My preference probably, and I could be convinced of the proposal if it has the right safeguards, is that STF remains the largest shareholder for financial stability, but that supporters buy perhaps a 49% share with a legal understanding that they fill the Petrie role and he enjoys a long and happy retirement. The proceeds fro the 49% share could then o to strengthening the team/ youth rather than buying out the owner.

[Golden Bear]

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Indeed and the more open club survey showed this wasn't if real interest to most fans so who's agenda are this lot pushing?

Wrong time as well. Winning games just now should be the only focus.

[My_Wife_Camille]

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Indeed and the more open club survey showed this wasn't if real interest to most fans so who's agenda are this lot pushing?

Wrong time as well. Winning games just now should be the only focus.

Maybe, just maybe, the guys behind this proposal are a bit more clued up on running a business, finances and legal issues than the average mug punter on hibs.net?

Maybe they're not 'pushing an agenda'.

Maybe they've come up with a proposal that they believe can unite the fans and lead to greater success on and off the pitch?

I was one who said that fan ownership wasn't a priority, it doesn't mean that I flat out reject the notion and I'm sure there will be many the same.

Let's see what they have to say. Maybe if the proposals are right then fan ownership might become a priority

[lord bunberry]

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We're probably not a million miles away in terms of numbers. Hearts had to come up with £5m over 3 years IIRC.

Hibs debt is c£7m and there is an appetite from Lloyds for Hibs to make them an offer for it. With a change of ownership that could happen albeit I'd guess the success of this bid is reliant on Farmer getting little or nothing back for his prior investments. There is a lot of emphasis on "if it's not about money"....

Do hibs owe Lloyds £7m? I was under the impression that our debt was to stf owned companies.

[Ozyhibby]

Given that we are 14 points adrift in the championship, I'm really surprised to see people defending Farmer and Petrie on here.
I'm not saying this offer is the solution but we need to hear them out.
And they need to get there act together and put something concrete on the table. It's time for someone to stick their head above the parapet here.

[flash]

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Given that we are 14 points adrift in the championship, I'm really surprised to see people defending Farmer and Petrie on here.
I'm not saying this offer is the solution but we need to hear them out.
And they need to get there act together and put something concrete on the table. It's time for someone to stick their head above the parapet here.

I think its less people backing the current regime and more being understandably wary about this idea.

[hughio]

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I think we need to be careful here. While this could work, it is also fraught with difficulty. Success is about leadership and while elements of that may have been lacking, particularly with our chairman, a body of supporters does not necessarily have common purpose. The Board of any organisation needs time and the danger is that a fan ownership model is too reactive, to say a few bad results. Consistency is required in good and bad times.

Further Hibernian is not Stirling Albion. I.e the club has (or should have) serious ambition. That comes at a big price. I can not see how Hibs (or Hearts for that matter) can fund that ambition from a few thousand people paying £20 a month. That is fine but there needs to be an understanding that without a substantial sugar daddy ambition will be limited and the company risks being under-capitalised. For example if we currently have £7m of debt that is supportable to STF balance sheet. It is very questionable if it is under fan ownership. Football finances are a volatile business to say the least.

We also need to ensure the leaders of such a group are a) representative and b) qualified in what is a technical, time consuming and non amateur occupation.

My preference probably, and I could be convinced of the proposal if it has the right safeguards, is that STF remains the largest shareholder for financial stability, but that supporters buy perhaps a 49% share with a legal understanding that they fill the Petrie role and he enjoys a long and happy retirement. The proceeds fro the 49% share could then o to strengthening the team/ youth rather than buying out the owner.

Good Lord...someone who seems to know what they are talking about!

[JimBHibees]

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I think we need to be careful here. While this could work, it is also fraught with difficulty. Success is about leadership and while elements of that may have been lacking, particularly with our chairman, a body of supporters does not necessarily have common purpose. The Board of any organisation needs time and the danger is that a fan ownership model is too reactive, to say a few bad results. Consistency is required in good and bad times.

Further Hibernian is not Stirling Albion. I.e the club has (or should have) serious ambition. That comes at a big price. I can not see how Hibs (or Hearts for that matter) can fund that ambition from a few thousand people paying £20 a month. That is fine but there needs to be an understanding that without a substantial sugar daddy ambition will be limited and the company risks being under-capitalised. For example if we currently have £7m of debt that is supportable to STF balance sheet. It is very questionable if it is under fan ownership. Football finances are a volatile business to say the least.

We also need to ensure the leaders of such a group are a) representative and b) qualified in what is a technical, time consuming and non amateur occupation.

My preference probably, and I could be convinced of the proposal if it has the right safeguards, is that STF remains the largest shareholder for financial stability, but that supporters buy perhaps a 49% share with a legal understanding that they fill the Petrie role and he enjoys a long and happy retirement. The proceeds fro the 49% share could then o to strengthening the team/ youth rather than buying out the owner.

Agree very good post. When has fan ownership ever worked and been meaningful? In the grand scheme of things Hibs are not a big club, we probably have a hard core of 7-8k with another 5k or so occasional/frequent supporters. I am not really sure how this sort of initiative can raise the necessary funds to run the club. Willing to be convinced however I am currently paying 45 or so quid (for seasons for son and I) a month plus extras of going to games/food/strips etc, not sure I really want to be paying any or much more than that especially if this group is run in the same pretty squalid way that HOH appears to be.

[lord bunberry]

Have we got an MP on board yet?

[jacomo]

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So would you agree that it might be worth seeing how the current set up pans out?

It looks like we finally have the right management team in place across the club, and things like training and player recruitment are now - finally - being done in a professional way.

Since the summer, I have been saying that this was the priority, so I am certainly not going to complain now it looks like we've turned a corner. I think the issues about ownership etc have been a distraction.

However, STF has now been custodian of the club for over 20 years, he doesn't seem to have any particular ambitions left to fulfil, and so maybe it is time to look at what comes next. If we don't, we leave ourselves vulnerable to being taken over by whoever can meet the asking price when STF finally calls it a day.

[rcarter1]

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I think we need to be careful here. While this could work, it is also fraught with difficulty. Success is about leadership and while elements of that may have been lacking, particularly with our chairman, a body of supporters does not necessarily have common purpose. The Board of any organisation needs time and the danger is that a fan ownership model is too reactive, to say a few bad results. Consistency is required in good and bad times.

Further Hibernian is not Stirling Albion. I.e the club has (or should have) serious ambition. That comes at a big price. I can not see how Hibs (or Hearts for that matter) can fund that ambition from a few thousand people paying £20 a month. That is fine but there needs to be an understanding that without a substantial sugar daddy ambition will be limited and the company risks being under-capitalised. For example if we currently have £7m of debt that is supportable to STF balance sheet. It is very questionable if it is under fan ownership. Football finances are a volatile business to say the least.

We also need to ensure the leaders of such a group are a) representative and b) qualified in what is a technical, time consuming and non amateur occupation.

My preference probably, and I could be convinced of the proposal if it has the right safeguards, is that STF remains the largest shareholder for financial stability, but that supporters buy perhaps a 49% share with a legal understanding that they fill the Petrie role and he enjoys a long and happy retirement. The proceeds fro the 49% share could then o to strengthening the team/ youth rather than buying out the owner.

Really great post. Agree with this. I would like to think that the process will be carefully thought through. If STF wants out completely, that would leave the problems of a purely fan led ownership. I think a fan led group could easily fall into dispute, or be knee jerk reactive. However if a strong and well designed constitution was built into the system of governance, Id be less concerned about these issues. Im also not sure why a sugar daddy is an absolute necessity.

[Brightside]

Still no detail. Until we know who the business backer is - and how much he is willing to bank-roll it remains a non-starter. You simply cannot run Hibs on £20 a month from 4000 fans.

[jacomo]

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Agree very good post. When has fan ownership ever worked and been meaningful? In the grand scheme of things Hibs are not a big club, we probably have a hard core of 7-8k with another 5k or so occasional/frequent supporters. I am not really sure how this sort of initiative can raise the necessary funds to run the club. Willing to be convinced however I am currently paying 45 or so quid (for seasons for son and I) a month plus extras of going to games/food/strips etc, not sure I really want to be paying any or much more than that especially if this group is run in the same pretty squalid way that HOH appears to be.

Barca, Dortmund or most German clubs, AFC Wimbledon etc. There are certainly examples of successful fan-owned clubs. If it brings fans closer to the club and increases attendances and revenues, then we would be better off than under the current regime. It would need elected officials and long-term planning though.