David Farrell's view on the Edinburgh derby

[wookie70]

A very good read and some great points. If Hibs are or were treating the Derby like any other game then it explains our record. You have to win the right to play football and we very rarely compete physically or mentally with Hearts. They essentially bully us and everyone knows that the only way you beat a bully is to stand up to them. Stubbs must learn from his mistakes in the first Derby and the Players have to be up for the game regardless of what the manager says.

If there is something I disagree with Farrell about it is that the Players themselves have the responsibility to win their individual battles regardless of the game plan. It doesn't need Alex Miller or Alan Stubbs to tell a player to kick/fight back. It should be a minimum requirement for a professional footballer.

[portycabbage]

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Yep, I haven't read Farrell's blog but for the most part, we only win Derbies is when we have better players than them, it's nothing to do with attitude. The Tornadoes, the McLeish team, the odd game of the Mowbray/Collins era, a couple of games under Fenlon when hearts were utter gash. On the rare occasions in recent times when we've been above them in the league we usually beat them at Easter Road, with the odd exception. The only time I recall us being the underdogs and winning was the We Are Unbeatable derby. Maybe some statto might try to prove me wrong but I doubt it.

All comes down to quality not midfield scrappers.

Re the bit in bold - Casper the Ghost game springs to mind. Not really a stat, admittedly.

[Hiber-nation]

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Re the bit in bold - Casper the Ghost game springs to mind. Not really a stat, admittedly.

Aye very true, definitely a one-off. I think we were 5th and they were 3rd but I suppose the amount of injuries we had was the reason we were such big underdogs. Chisholm, Thicot and O'Brien all started that night.

[Mr White]

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Aye very true, definitely a one-off. I think we were 5th and they were 3rd but I suppose the amount of injuries we had was the reason we were such big underdogs. Chisholm, Thicot and O'Brien all started that night.

2-1 in Mcleish's first derby in april 98 too but that's also just another rare exception to the rule you've highlighted unfortunately.

[Iggy Pope]

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So do you disagree with what he is saying in that they always seem more up for it or is it just because he is saying it. You seem to have a disliking to him! I have seen many derbies, we have better teams, they have better teams sometimes they are about average, but overall they have always seemed that little bit more up for it. I think he is spot on with what he says regarding the mentality, they treat the derby like it's the only match, we treat it just like every other game.

you still don't seem to accept that him being a pro footballer, playing for hibs, playing in derbies has insight! He will have a hell of a lot more insight than you!

Honestly? I haven't given him a thought in years. He was garbage for us, as were most of his team mates. That's why we lost derbies. And I witnessed the lot of them. Did you? Ultimately this standard of footballer is why we have now been relegated three times in my witness and its not easy. The 200 games for Hibs theory has now been pee peed on. Anyone can blog the "I was a hard man but crap at the footie side" ***** like this.He is not Norman Hunter. End of.
And ****ing hertz are never up for it on the occasions we **** them. End of again.

[givescotlandfreedom]

He's bang on.

[Iggy Pope]

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He's bang on.

He was bang awful.

[patlowe]

First off I think if Farrell can provide an insight into why we tend to lose derbies then I am absolutely fine with him writing this blog. I don't see why his level of ability or poor record in the derby should bar him from giving his opinion.

Personally I genuinely thought going into last season that we were finally going to turn the tide in this matter, given the circumstances, but incredibly, although somewhat predictably, what has happened in the last year and a bit is we have actually contrived to make the psychological gap between the two clubs even larger. If we're talking about bullying and being physical, I thought Hibs did go into derbies last season trying to bully what was essentially a bunch of boys, and they still lost. Even the win we scraped seemed like such a relief to fans that it almost re-emphasised the mental awareness that winning these games has become the exception to us rather than anything like the rule.

It's possibly rehashing a lot of what has been said but to me it is mental weakness - the only time we (really) had the upper hand over them in my time supporting Hibs was under McLeish but his teams were full of really strong characters - Sauzee, Mixu, Matty Jack, Yogi etc. Guys that just knew what it takes and were not going to be intimated by the spectre of a derby. It helped that they were good players and surrounded by good players of course. I don't think any manager has instilled that same core into the team since. Even the Mowbray/Collins teams, while they were full of good players, I felt were extremely weak mentally and, more often than not, crumbled under the pressure of derbies. Hearts managers (including Levein, which is ominous) always seem to understand that you need strong characters to build a team around for these games - Pressley, Neilson, Hartley, Black, McGowan etc, Christ even Ryan Stevenson. It also helped that they had a lot of good players over the intervening period too, for whatever reason.

Do we have that combination of mental strength and decent quality now under Stubbs? Probably not. Gray, Stevenson and Forster maybe. And El Alagui seemed to have it pre-injury. We desperately need a run of derby wins. Last season was such a great opportunity missed IMO.

Well that was a depressing write...

[Stevie Reid]

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First off I think if Farrell can provide an insight into why we tend to lose derbies then I am absolutely fine with him writing this blog. I don't see why his level or ability or poor record in the derby should bar him from giving his opinion.

Personally I genuinely thought going into last season that we were finally going to turn the tide in this matter, given the circumstances, but incredibly, although somewhat predictably, what has happened in the last year and a bit is we have actually contrived to make the psychological gap between the two clubs even larger. If we're talking about bullying and being physical, I thought Hibs did go into derbies last season trying to bully what was essentially a bunch of boys, and they still lost. Even the win we scraped seemed like such a relief to fans that it almost re-emphasised the mental awareness that winning these games has become the exception to us rather than anything like the rule.

It's possibly rehashing a lot of what has been said but to me it is mental weakness - the only time we (really) had the upper hand over them in my time supporting Hibs was under McLeish but his teams were full of really strong characters - Sauzee, Mixu, Matty Jack, Yogi etc. Guys that just knew what it takes and were not going to be intimated by the spectre of a derby. It helped that they were good players and surrounded by good players of course. I don't think any manager has instilled that same core into the team since. Even the Mowbray/Collins teams, while they were full of good players, I felt were extremely weak mentally and, more often than not, crumbled under the pressure of derbies. Hearts managers (including Levein, which is ominous) always seem to understand that you need strong characters to build a team around for these games - Pressley, Neilson, Hartley, Black, McGowan etc, Christ even Ryan Stevenson. It also helped that they had a lot of good players over the intervening period too, for whatever reason.

Do we have that combination of mental strength and decent quality now under Stubbs? Probably not. Gray, Stevenson and Forster maybe. And El Alagui seemed to have it pre-injury. We desperately need a run of derby wins. Last season was such a great opportunity missed IMO.

Well that was a depressing write...

Completely agree, the only time in my life of supporting Hibs that I felt confident going into derbies was under McLeish. Under Mowbray we were capable of beating them, but also took some hidings as well.

[matty_f]

I'm not sure there is a huge gulf in mentality, the Yams have had way more than their fair share of 'luck' in recent times, 2 clear goals not given against them, God knows how many red cards missed at the time, even the last Derby there was nothing between the teams.
Last season was the biggest disappointment I've had against them, we had a better team but contrived to lose against them again and again.

[AndyM_1875]

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I'm not sure there is a huge gulf in mentality, the Yams have had way more than their fair share of 'luck' in recent times, 2 clear goals not given against them, God knows how many red cards missed at the time, even the last Derby there was nothing between the teams.
Last season was the biggest disappointment I've had against them, we had a better team but contrived to lose against them again and again.

That's certainly true Matty but we have also been mentally weak at times too many times. Under McLeish we had not just good players but also players who wouldn't take any crap from Hearts when they started their hammer throwing.
First rules for playing Hearts have to be don't get beat. Fight, battle, scrap, snarl and claw your way to it.

For too many years we've been more concerned about the performance. That hasn't worked. Fight fire with fire as far as I'm concerned.

Prior to the Millenium Derby Nick Colgan said the players all knew what it meant. "You make sure you don't lose". With player like Yogi, Sauzee, Shaun Dennis, Stuart Lovell, Mixu etc in the team you were on the way as they wouldn't get bullied or pushed about.
Half time in that game we were 2-0 up and Lovell is snarling in the tunnel coming out for the second half "This mob don't have 2 goals in them. Finish them off!!"

[patlowe]

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I'm not sure there is a huge gulf in mentality, the Yams have had way more than their fair share of 'luck' in recent times, 2 clear goals not given against them, God knows how many red cards missed at the time, even the last Derby there was nothing between the teams.
Last season was the biggest disappointment I've had against them, we had a better team but contrived to lose against them again and again.

That to me screams of a gulf in mentality IMO. I feel we are often already beaten going into derbies because we think, and possibly the fans do too to a certain extent, that we might be better than this lot but even if we play well, we're still very liable to lose. I'm not saying it's irreversible or insurmountable, but I think it's there.

[Aldoo]

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I'm not sure there is a huge gulf in mentality, the Yams have had way more than their fair share of 'luck' in recent times, 2 clear goals not given against them, God knows how many red cards missed at the time, even the last Derby there was nothing between the teams.
Last season was the biggest disappointment I've had against them, we had a better team but contrived to lose against them again and again.

Disagree with your first line. There is a massive gap in mentality. Hearts are pre-programmed to compete to the death against Hibs and it doesn't take a herculean effort for them to do so, any win we get against them seems to take absolutely everything we have and we just scrape by the odd goal (don't think we've won by 2 clear goals since the 'unbeatable derby????).

Look at the new year derby this year, we were on a good run, unbeaten in a few and at home, they were on the back of successive hammerings by Partick and Killie yet we still cling on for the dear life and need a penalty with 8 mins to go to get a win. If back then the roles were reversed would they have shown us such hospitality, no chance is the answer.

[renato]

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Under Mowbray we were capable of beating them, but also took some hidings as well.

Which to be fair was more often than not soley down to Simon Brown or Zibby throwing them a couple of goals every derby.

Try and think how many Jambo keepers (10 men derby apart) have cost them goals compared to ours? I remember counting Zibby's **** ups as the list began to grow, I'm sure he cost us in excess of 7 goals against them.

The savilles' best player every derby...

[HFC 0-7]

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I'm not sure there is a huge gulf in mentality, the Yams have had way more than their fair share of 'luck' in recent times, 2 clear goals not given against them, God knows how many red cards missed at the time, even the last Derby there was nothing between the teams.
Last season was the biggest disappointment I've had against them, we had a better team but contrived to lose against them again and again.

Kind of what he said in his blog where he talked about bring the better team but unable to score then the inevitable happened. They treat the derby as a much bigger game than we do IMO. Yes they have had a good few decisions of late but certainly as long as I can remember they have had the edge when a game wears on all square we get nervy and they don't.

[Bad Martini]

With the exception of McLeish, the rest of our best results against the mutants has not come as we would expect and I honestly can admit that. Dont get me wrong, EVERY time we beat them is divine but it's not always been expected and when it was, we either:

1) ****ed it up by making mistakes...
2) Absolutely bottled it
3) Didn't give enough of a ****...

...any mixture of all 3 is what we've had to deal with for years and it manifests itself more against THEM.

I could handle it better if it was always the first one...but it's not. I can't handle the second one well and I really canny stomach the third.

As for this one, well...I cant remember wanting to beat them this much for a long time. I do recall the last time we burst their bubble with their unbeatable pish and they are getting back to that mindset again.

Hope we rip them a new one.

ENDOF

[Dashing Bob S]

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With the exception of McLeish, the rest of our best results against the mutants has not come as we would expect and I honestly can admit that. Dont get me wrong, EVERY time we beat them is divine but it's not always been expected and when it was, we either:

1) ****ed it up by making mistakes...
2) Absolutely bottled it
3) Didn't give enough of a ****...

...any mixture of all 3 is what we've had to deal with for years and it manifests itself more against THEM.

I could handle it better if it was always the first one...but it's not. I can't handle the second one well and I really canny stomach the third.

As for this one, well...I cant remember wanting to beat them this much for a long time. I do recall the last time we burst their bubble with their unbeatable pish and they are getting back to that mindset again.

Hope we rip them a new one.

ENDOF

Unless there is such a gulf in class between the teams (7-0,6-2) which is rarely the case in modern football, its pointless trying to win a derby on football skill alone. It tends to be the team that wants it most which is successful. Here we are at a disadvantage as the culture of our support demands that we try and play football, whereas Hearts fans are happy to crane their necks all day long looking to sky as long as they scab three points against us. I've lost count of the number of times the two teams are battling away, producing eye-bleeding stuff in a 0-0 draw, and the Hibs crowd get bored and restless and start urging the team to keep it on the deck. Then we look impressive for about 10 mins, then Hearts break away and score and heads go down.

We have to, as a team, support and club, treat the derby as a one-off festival of hate, loathing and despicable cheating that has nothing whatsoever to do with football. Only then will our record improve.

[Eyrie]

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Unless there is such a gulf in class between the teams (7-0,6-2) which is rarely the case in modern football, its pointless trying to win a derby on football skill alone. It tends to be the team that wants it most which is successful. Here we are at a disadvantage as the culture of our support demands that we try and play football, whereas Hearts fans are happy to crane their necks all day long looking to sky as long as they scab three points against us. I've lost count of the number of times the two teams are battling away, producing eye-bleeding stuff in a 0-0 draw, and the Hibs crowd get bored and restless and start urging the team to keep it on the deck. Then we look impressive for about 10 mins, then Hearts break away and score and heads go down.

We have to, as a team, support and club, treat the derby as a one-off festival of hate, loathing and despicable cheating that has nothing whatsoever to do with football. Only then will our record improve.

Agreed. Feels like every derby goes the same way - they drag us down to their level and beat us with experience.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I see the Een have ripped his blog off now, *****y wee rag that it is.

[Alfred E Newman]

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Chatting to a Hearts youth coach a few weeks ago (good hibby too) and despite the fact that he coaches a young side who don't play in a competitive league, he was told right from his first day that they don't lose to Hibs. Drilling the mindset into the youngsters from day one that they don't lose to Hibs. That's all the way through the club. Gives you a decent insight to how they treat derbies.

They mustn't be listening. Have we not won the East of Scotland Shield (youth teams now) something like 10 years in a row?

[RIP Bestie]

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Honestly? I haven't given him a thought in years. He was garbage for us, as were most of his team mates. That's why we lost derbies. And I witnessed the lot of them. Did you? Ultimately this standard of footballer is why we have now been relegated three times in my witness and its not easy. The 200 games for Hibs theory has now been pee peed on. Anyone can blog the "I was a hard man but crap at the footie side" ***** like this.He is not Norman Hunter. End of.
And ****ing hertz are never up for it on the occasions we **** them. End of again.

Enjoyed reading your posts on this thread Iggy but you're probably flogging a dead donkey trying to get some people to understand your point.
You are dead right, the cream will always rise to the top and when we have had good teams we have had the upper hand in these games.
The big problem is that there is an acceptance of mediocrity amongst our support and just because someone shows a bit of heart and grit makes them accepted even although their ability as a footballer is somewhat below the standard we should be expecting to see at the club. Some of this ilk are even hero worshipped amongst our support As Farrell himself said, during his time at the club we had some great players like Wright Jackson O'Neil and McAllister but they were let down by the likes of Farrell, Fellinger, McIntyre, Beaumont,, Hamilton, Orr and the Miller brothers. That is the reason our record is so poor. I don't think that McLeish would have had to tell Sauzee, Latapy, O'Neill et Al, that they had to change their style against a team of players that couldn't lace their boots.

[RIP Bestie]

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I'm not sure there is a huge gulf in mentality, the Yams have had way more than their fair share of 'luck' in recent times, 2 clear goals not given against them, God knows how many red cards missed at the time, even the last Derby there was nothing between the teams.
Last season was the biggest disappointment I've had against them, we had a bnetter team but contrived to lose against them again and again.

Did we?

[matty_f]

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Did we?

I would say so. We were significantly better on results in the league until Butcher got his hands on the team.

[matty_f]

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Kind of what he said in his blog where he talked about bring the better team but unable to score then the inevitable happened. They treat the derby as a much bigger game than we do IMO. Yes they have had a good few decisions of late but certainly as long as I can remember they have had the edge when a game wears on all square we get nervy and they don't.

I'm not sure I agree with that either, the game they won where we could have sent them down (Forster's disallowed goal), they were one up when he 'scored' and we were in the ascendency. There was every chance that had we been given that goal we'd have gone on to score again. As it was, we had to chase the game and they hit us on the break for their second. They never won that game because of mental fortitude, they won it because the linesman dug them out a massive hole.

When Fenlon resigned after losing a derby, the Yams rode their luck massively in that game - it wasn't down to a better attitude that they won that night, we could easily have been 4 up by the time they scored (with about their only attack), after that they parked the bus and we struggled to break them down - again that wasn't down to any sort of mental resilience on their part in the same way that Falkirk beating us at Easter Road this season wasn't down to that.

The 0-0 where Sparky's goal wasn't given - we were miles better than them that day and they were delighted to leave with a point, again if anything our attitude was better than theirs in that game. Or the New Year derby where Lewis Stevenson won the penalty as the game was closing out, we looked mentally and technically better than them that night as well.

The first derby this season, we started better than them and were (IMHO) controlling the game when we got the penalty. Liam Craig misses it and the Yams got a lift from that, but even then they weren't dominating us and bar the last few moments where they were taking the ball into the corners, we were the better team pushing for an equaliser - attitude and mentality were just as good as the Yams again, IMHO.

I think there have been exceptions, but I would say generally speaking Hibs players have gone into the derbies showing just as much will to win and fight as the Yams have, but we have carried nowhere near as much luck, and certainly haven't had the huge helping hands that they've had from the refs.

[RIP Bestie]

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I would say so. We were significantly better on results in the league until Butcher got his hands on the team.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we accumulated less points than they did.
Butcher was horrendous but bottom line is that the majority of the players weren't good enough.
Although they were only young laddie's their players were better than ours even although it took them a while to gel as a team. Don't get me wrong I'm not for one minute saying that they had a team of good players. But they were better than us. As Pat Stanton says, there were people at our club who weren't fit to wear the jersey and they are not here anymore.

[bigwheel]

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Enjoyed reading your posts on this thread Iggy but you're probably flogging a dead donkey trying to get some people to understand your point.
You are dead right, the cream will always rise to the top and when we have had good teams we have had the upper hand in these games.
The big problem is that there is an acceptance of mediocrity amongst our support and just because someone shows a bit of heart and grit makes them accepted even although their ability as a footballer is somewhat below the standard we should be expecting to see at the club. Some of this ilk are even hero worshipped amongst our support As Farrell himself said, during his time at the club we had some great players like Wright Jackson O'Neil and McAllister but they were let down by the likes of Farrell, Fellinger, McIntyre, Beaumont,, Hamilton, Orr and the Miller brothers. That is the reason our record is so poor. I don't think that McLeish would have had to tell Sauzee, Latapy, O'Neill et Al, that they had to change their style against a team of players that couldn't lace their boots.

There is no correlation between a players ability and their insight on football ...IP has been batting on about Farrell being a poor player, therefore he has no interest in his views ....Jose Mourinho ? Arsene Wenger ? Paul Clements ? Just because Farrell was no Latapy doesn't make his blog any less interesting ....

[Iggy Pope]

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Enjoyed reading your posts on this thread Iggy but you're probably flogging a dead donkey trying to get some people to understand your point.
You are dead right, the cream will always rise to the top and when we have had good teams we have had the upper hand in these games.
The big problem is that there is an acceptance of mediocrity amongst our support and just because someone shows a bit of heart and grit makes them accepted even although their ability as a footballer is somewhat below the standard we should be expecting to see at the club. Some of this ilk are even hero worshipped amongst our support As Farrell himself said, during his time at the club we had some great players like Wright Jackson O'Neil and McAllister but they were let down by the likes of Farrell, Fellinger, McIntyre, Beaumont,, Hamilton, Orr and the Miller brothers. That is the reason our record is so poor. I don't think that McLeish would have had to tell Sauzee, Latapy, O'Neill et Al, that they had to change their style against a team of players that couldn't lace their boots.

Absolutely.

[RIP Bestie]

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There is no correlation between a players ability and their insight on football ...IP has been batting on about Farrell being a poor player, therefore he has no interest in his views ....Jose Mourinho ? Arsene Wenger ? Paul Clements ? Just because Farrell was no Latapy doesn't make his blog any less interesting ....

I don't get that from him.
What I take from his posts is that he disagrees that the results were down to attitude and actually down to the fact our team contained players who weren't good enough. Yes he points to Farrell as being part of that problem but that was all he did and I'm my opinion he is right.
I don't think his intention was to say he didn't respect Farrels opinion or that he shouldn't have one just that he didn't agree with it and would be more interested in hearing from someone who actually made a telling contribution in these games.
What's wrong with that?

[Big_Franck]

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I'm not sure I agree with that either, the game they won where we could have sent them down (Forster's disallowed goal), they were one up when he 'scored' and we were in the ascendency. There was every chance that had we been given that goal we'd have gone on to score again. As it was, we had to chase the game and they hit us on the break for their second. They never won that game because of mental fortitude, they won it because the linesman dug them out a massive hole.

When Fenlon resigned after losing a derby, the Yams rode their luck massively in that game - it wasn't down to a better attitude that they won that night, we could easily have been 4 up by the time they scored (with about their only attack), after that they parked the bus and we struggled to break them down - again that wasn't down to any sort of mental resilience on their part in the same way that Falkirk beating us at Easter Road this season wasn't down to that.

The 0-0 where Sparky's goal wasn't given - we were miles better than them that day and they were delighted to leave with a point, again if anything our attitude was better than theirs in that game. Or the New Year derby where Lewis Stevenson won the penalty as the game was closing out, we looked mentally and technically better than them that night as well.

The first derby this season, we started better than them and were (IMHO) controlling the game when we got the penalty. Liam Craig misses it and the Yams got a lift from that, but even then they weren't dominating us and bar the last few moments where they were taking the ball into the corners, we were the better team pushing for an equaliser - attitude and mentality were just as good as the Yams again, IMHO.

I think there have been exceptions, but I would say generally speaking Hibs players have gone into the derbies showing just as much will to win and fight as the Yams have, but we have carried nowhere near as much luck, and certainly haven't had the huge helping hands that they've had from the refs.

This for me. Far too much is made of this apparent difference in mentality because I just don't see it. The vast majority of derbies that I have seen have been decided by one team having a better quality of player than the other. Unfortunately the fact that they spent much more than they could afford on players for the best part of two decades meant they won the majority of the games in that period.

A good few have been hugely influenced by questionable decisions that favoured Hearts. A couple of them highlighted above, but there was also the numerous retrospective red cards apparently missed by the referees and then of course we have craig thompson.

Unless they continue to overspend on players the derbies will be played on a level playing field over the next few years for the first time in my adult life. Bring it on.

[matty_f]

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Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm sure we accumulated less points than they did.
Butcher was horrendous but bottom line is that the majority of the players weren't good enough.
Although they were only young laddie's their players were better than ours even although it took them a while to gel as a team. Don't get me wrong I'm not for one minute saying that they had a team of good players. But they were better than us. As Pat Stanton says, there were people at our club who weren't fit to wear the jersey and they are not here anymore.

Couple of points - first, pre-Butcher we had accumulated more points than them. Second, the vast majority of their points came once they were relegated and the pressure was off, whereas our team went into serious decline under Butcher. The negative impact Butcher had on that side cannot be understated, however I stand by my original statement that we had the better side. It just makes the Butcher shambles all the more infuriating.