What if....

[Keith_M]

I've been having a serious think about this and I realise some of the following will not be popular (awaits name-calling, but I'm a big boy ).

I raise this point merely to provoke debate and some thought about the subject, the 'Devil's Advocate' if you wish, I'm not claiming it to be either the right or the wrong way.

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Hibs appear to be currently working for a long term solution to what's been wrong at the Club for years. Dempster, et al, have said as much already. There has been an emphasis on large changes in the Backroom Staff, for instance, as well as trying to change the culture around Hibs. There is now a single Football Philosophy that means we will (hopefully) have one style of play from youths through to First Team. That will make for a better transition of players from successful youth teams upward, something we haven't seen for years.

We have an untried Manager but one that is supposed to be buying into this philosophy but that also still has a lot to learn himself. He has also, regrettably, been lumbered with a number of players that have little skill and even less guts for a fight. The same ones that got us relgated. It would appear we had neither the time nor the finances to dispense with all of their services.

A number of Club statements quite rightly do not fit well with the Fans, e.g. Quality over Quantity when indeed we seem to currently have little to speak of. Dempster also said that Loan Signings were not a good option, right before we once again saw a number of them arrive at the club. Then there's the Petrie situation, which I don't think any of us are happy about.

However, what if the long term option is genuinely the only one available to Hibs?

We have gone down the route I mentioned above instead of the usual 'quick fix' of just changing the Manager every 18 months and hoping all will be well. I've mentioned lots of stuff they've got wrong but that doesn't mean that Dempster and Stubbs don't have the best interests of Hibs at heart.

Is it worth getting behind the club, accepting that they've made mistakes and that we may be down for two seasons after all?
--If not, what is the alternative?

[The_Exile]

The alternative? Apathy, which will slowly gnaw away at the club further. Unfortunately the only way out of this is a winning team on the pitch. Can't see how we're going to build that within the next couple of years TBH.

[The Gorf]

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The alternative? Apathy, which will slowly gnaw away at the club further. Unfortunately the only way out of this is a winning team on the pitch. Can't see how we're going to build that within the next couple of years TBH.

Totally correct.
ps your Avatar needs rearranging though: We came, we saw, they kicked our ass. Is more appropriate at the moment.

Only joshing. LOL

[HoboHarry]

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I've been having a serious think about this and I realise some of the following will not be popular (awaits name-calling, but I'm a big boy ).

I raise this point merely to provoke debate and some thought about the subject, the 'Devil's Advocate' if you wish, I'm not claiming it to be either the right or the wrong way.

------------

Hibs appear to be currently working for a long term solution to what's been wrong at the Club for years. Dempster, et al, have said as much already. There has been an emphasis on large changes in the Backroom Staff, for instance, as well as trying to change the culture around Hibs. There is now a single Football Philosophy that means we will (hopefully) have one style of play from youths through to First Team. That will make for a better transition of players from successful youth teams upward, something we haven't seen for years.

We have an untried Manager but one that is supposed to be buying into this philosophy but that also still has a lot to learn himself. He has also, regrettably, been lumbered with a number of players that have little skill and even less guts for a fight. The same ones that got us relgated. It would appear we had neither the time nor the finances to dispense with all of their services.

A number of Club statements quite rightly do not fit well with the Fans, e.g. Quality over Quantity when indeed we seem to currently have little to speak of. Dempster also said that Loan Signings were not a good option, right before we once again saw a number of them arrive at the club. Then there's the Petrie situation, which I don't think any of us are happy about.

However, what if the long term option is genuinely the only one available to Hibs?

We have gone down the route I mentioned above instead of the usual 'quick fix' of just changing the Manager every 18 months and hoping all will be well. I've mentioned lots of stuff they've got wrong but that doesn't mean that Dempster and Stubbs don't have the best interests of Hibs at heart.

Is it worth getting behind the club, accepting that they've made mistakes and that we may be down for two seasons after all?
--If not, what is the alternative?

The long term policy can only possibly be giving AS two years to fix the mess. Some of the intellectual lightweights on this forum would have wanted Alex Ferguson fired after 6 weeks.

[Iain G]

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I've been having a serious think about this and I realise some of the following will not be popular (awaits name-calling, but I'm a big boy ).

I raise this point merely to provoke debate and some thought about the subject, the 'Devil's Advocate' if you wish, I'm not claiming it to be either the right or the wrong way.

------------

Hibs appear to be currently working for a long term solution to what's been wrong at the Club for years. Dempster, et al, have said as much already. There has been an emphasis on large changes in the Backroom Staff, for instance, as well as trying to change the culture around Hibs. There is now a single Football Philosophy that means we will (hopefully) have one style of play from youths through to First Team. That will make for a better transition of players from successful youth teams upward, something we haven't seen for years.

We have an untried Manager but one that is supposed to be buying into this philosophy but that also still has a lot to learn himself. He has also, regrettably, been lumbered with a number of players that have little skill and even less guts for a fight. The same ones that got us relgated. It would appear we had neither the time nor the finances to dispense with all of their services.

A number of Club statements quite rightly do not fit well with the Fans, e.g. Quality over Quantity when indeed we seem to currently have little to speak of. Dempster also said that Loan Signings were not a good option, right before we once again saw a number of them arrive at the club. Then there's the Petrie situation, which I don't think any of us are happy about.

However, what if the long term option is genuinely the only one available to Hibs?

We have gone down the route I mentioned above instead of the usual 'quick fix' of just changing the Manager every 18 months and hoping all will be well. I've mentioned lots of stuff they've got wrong but that doesn't mean that Dempster and Stubbs don't have the best interests of Hibs at heart.

Is it worth getting behind the club, accepting that they've made mistakes and that we may be down for two seasons after all?
--If not, what is the alternative?

The above is probably the reality of things. A lot of positive and sensible changes have been put in place already that wont see much benefit til later in the season and properly over the next several years. These are changes that clearly needed to happen to start to produce better all round footballers for the first team to get away from relying on loans, journeymen etc etc.

The club cant exactly come out and say they arent going for promotion this year as that would see crowds plummet.

Maybe they over egged the pudding early doors with quality over quantity and winning the league, but what really could and would they say? Maybe if they said promotion was the goal this year that would be realistic, but this place would have melted down with cries of lack of ambition etc etc so you can't really win whatever they said.

Its not been the start any of us wanted, including the club, and its clearly gonna take a bit of time for Stubbs to get it right and the new players to gel, however he needs to find his most effective starting XI and stick with it. I suspect the fragility of the players from last year is worse than he expected and he is having to still use some of them at least until January. Hopefully he can get their belief back a little to get some positive reactions out of some of them.

There is still time to get us up into that top 4 but a lot of work has to be done by players and coaches and the club to get us there.

[bobbyhibs1983]

Is it worth getting behind the club, accepting that they've made mistakes and that we may be down for two seasons after all?
--If not, what is the alternative?

[/QUOTE]


In regards getitng behind the club, what do you think alot of fans have done?
look at how many people bought spl priced season tickets for the 1st div
everyone knwos there ve made mistakes, and it seems that mistakes will continue to happen over and voer and over again, where will it stop? Imo it comes down to taking responsiability(sp) and imo that starts with the people whom continue to make these mistakes.

I tihnk its a lack of planning and organisation thats dumped us into this division for ATLEAST 2 seasons
as i ve said on another post, look at heartz, they sacked there manager got a new guy in, theve brought players in and bang, got there pre season started and bang look at them now,

us? well we ve waited a few weeks, we ve sacked our manager, we ve waited a few weeks got a new manager in, waited some time let 18 players(or there abouts?) maybe signed a few players, waited some time, started pre season, needed more players, we agianw aited and waited, end of pre season, under strengthed, not ready, needing more players, deadline day comes and goes.

[The_Exile]

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Totally correct.
ps your Avatar needs rearranging though: We came, we saw, they kicked our ass. Is more appropriate at the moment.

Only joshing. LOL

Avatar change is being considered unless we start doing some ass kicking, cannae see it though, we're as soft as you know what and have been for years

[blackpoolhibs]

Basically the OP is asking for more patience, that lorry left a long time ago i'm afraid.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

As BH says this isnae something new, the club has been in terminal decline for a few years now. As for a solution, who knows?

[Iain G]

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Basically the OP is asking for more patience, that lorry left a long time ago i'm afraid.

But our actusl reality is that patience is required, Stubbs saying that on bbc story...

[The_Exile]

I would agree to a certain extent that patience is required, given how little time the management team have had to prepare for the season. Having said that, there must be something fundamental wrong when we're struggling to score and defend goals against part time teams. There's players in the team who are well past being on borrowed time, despite being full-time pro athletes who should be breezing past teams that we're struggling to beat, but alas it looks like we're now skint so stuck with them.

[blackpoolhibs]

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But our actusl reality is that patience is required, Stubbs saying that on bbc story...

Aye, jam tomorrow. We as a club have alway to wait for something good to happen, we need to have a training ground, or a new west stand, or even a new east stand. Now its bring in the right backroom staff, even though the guy whos bringing them in has never been a manager before, and so far his dealings on the playing side of things is dodgy to say the least.

So i go along with this patience thats seemingly required, is it so he can train the players we currently have to be better, or is it to allow him time to bring in better quality?

We are playing in this league next season, well i say that now the way things are going we could find ourselves relegated again.

If we say we will stay up, there will be a drastic reduction in income for Stubbs to use, what has he done so far that would convince you he could do better with less resources?

[Keith_M]

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Basically the OP is asking for more patience, that lorry left a long time ago i'm afraid.

Actually, I'm not asking for anything, but I get where you're coming from.


I don't really know what is the right or wrong thing to do but, despite expressing my own dissapointment at the situation, I'm at a loss as to what we CAN do, except keep getting behind the team.


If you do have a positive alternative that would work, I'm sure we'd all love to hear it

[blackpoolhibs]

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Actually, I'm not asking for anything, but I get where you're coming from.


I don't really know what is the right or wrong thing to do but, despite expressing my own dissapointment at the situation, I'm at a loss as to what we CAN do, except keep getting behind the team.


If you do have a positive alternative that would work, I'm sure we'd all love to hear it

Golf, the gym. Both give me much more enjoyment than travelling to see what was on show yesterday.

[Keith_M]

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Golf, the gym. Both give me much more enjoyment than travelling to see what was on show yesterday.

I didn't mean positive for YOU!

[blackpoolhibs]

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I didn't mean positive for YOU!

I know, We need new owners, people that will actually run the club not pass it off to an accountant. The owners should be hands on knowing every decision they make is their money on the line, not someone elses who couldn't give a toss about the club.

[Keith_M]

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I know, We need new owners, people that will actually run the club not pass it off to an accountant. The owners should be hands on knowing every decision they make is their money on the line, not someone elses who couldn't give a toss about the club.

Agreed, but they also need big pockets.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Agreed, but they also need big pockets.

Do they actually need to have big pockets? Could they not just run the club better, it could hardly be run much worse as it is now?

Obviously having a bit of money behind them is always good, but anyone we get won't
in all honesty have anywhere near as much as Farmer has, so should we only consider people with more than him?

An owner who actually cares about the club would be a start, and someone who has an interest in how its run and where its going would be a bonus too.

Nobody that i know seems to know or even understand why Farmer is still the owner, or even wants to be the owner? What does he get from being the man who owns Hibs?

[Keith_M]

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Do they actually need to have big pockets? Could they not just run the club better, it could hardly be run much worse as it is now?

Obviously having a bit of money behind them is always good, but anyone we get won't
in all honesty have anywhere near as much as Farmer has, so should we only consider people with more than him?

An owner who actually cares about the club would be a start, and someone who has an interest in how its run and where its going would be a bonus too.

Nobody that i know seems to know or even understand why Farmer is still the owner, or even wants to be the owner? What does he get from being the man who owns Hibs?

I'd hate to see us having to rely on some rich guy's money for eternity but I think we need someone who is willing to 'splash the cash' on a one-off basis.

We need rid of the deadwood and to get decent replacements, the alleged "quality", brought in. That only needs done once then a sustainable model used thereafter.

However, it has to be done without STF and Petrie, who are killing the club with their complete lack of interest.

[blackpoolhibs]

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I'd hate to see us having to rely on some rich guy's money for eternity but I think we need someone who is willing to 'splash the cash' on a one-off basis.

We need rid of the deadwood and to get decent replacements, the alleged "quality", brought in. That only needs done once then a sustainable model used thereafter.

However, it has to be done without STF and Petrie, who are killing the club with their complete lack of interest.

[GreenLake]

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Aye, jam tomorrow. We as a club have alway to wait for something good to happen, we need to have a training ground, or a new west stand, or even a new east stand. Now its bring in the right backroom staff, even though the guy whos bringing them in has never been a manager before, and so far his dealings on the playing side of things is dodgy to say the least.

So i go along with this patience thats seemingly required, is it so he can train the players we currently have to be better, or is it to allow him time to bring in better quality?

We are playing in this league next season, well i say that now the way things are going we could find ourselves relegated again.

If we say we will stay up, there will be a drastic reduction in income for Stubbs to use, what has he done so far that would convince you he could do better with less resources?

If we get relegated next season, I predict that hibs.net will be on the front of the team shirts instead of Marathon.

[#2 Double Tap]

long term outcomes are formed from the short term results.

[BroxburnHibee]

I have no problem with showing patience however IMO we don't look any better from last season and that's a real worry.

I honestly believe we could be locked in the relegation zone by the time the January window opens.

If we don't do some decent business then we might be in even more trouble.

The club is not learning from past mistakes and I for one have real concerns.

[SanFranHibs]

I don't think accepting 2 or 3 years in this division is acceptable irrespective of the presence of Rangers and Hearts. It is a dangerous strategy waiting for next season on the assumption that both of them will be promoted and we will then be strong favourites to win the division. The way Hibs are being run there is no guarantee we can compete in this division even in their absence. We are only an Oxley goal and a 94th minute winner from being stuck on 2 points at the bottom. If Hibs as a club have accepted that we cannot compete in the Championship against a Hearts team who have gutted their team twice, recently exited administration, changed their management then we might be in more trouble than we think we are. There may be no 'plan' to get out of this division other than we will be the 'biggest' team in it next season so we should be ok. Hardly worth our support.

We hired backroom staff when it was obvious that the problem was with the team management and players. And I know I keep saying it but I am still convinced that the new manager should have been the one to decide who he wanted to keep from last year. Not saying Thompson or anyone else from last year who have us unbeaten at the top but between LD and Petrie they made sure that Stubbs had to keep Heffernan, Craig, Robertson because the squad was so bare he had no option. LD and Petrie allowed Butcher to decimate te squad and probably made some of his decisions for/with him, knowing he was next. And if LD had nothing to do with it, what the hell is she doing here?

I still don't 'blame' Stubbs although I am disappointed that we seem unable to reproduce the same quality of football that we did against Rangers even allowing it was in a 'meaningless' Cup. We played with confidence and purpose that have not been seen since. But Stubbs had no cash and very little time given to him in the transfer window and was scrambling for loans. I said on this forum prior to the Stubbs appointment that a big part of the selection process would be how many loan players would the new manager be able to bring in. Not a bad thing in itself except it should supplemental to building a squad. What are we going to do in January when we lose a couple of loanees? I think I know!

If positive action is not taken soon I fear for Hibs. It is ok for fans to come on and optimistically 'expect' us to turn it around but since January we have been unable to provide anything to reward such optimism. Hearts have dealt with their self inflicted situation and done an incredible job given their circumstances. As a club we react to each problem in isolation and avoid the big picture.

Hibs have to win back the supprt of the fans before it is too late and if they leave it much longer it will be too late. Contradicting myself somewhat on loanees but in our circumstances we do need a booster shot and something like LG on loan (If LG & Celtic are amenable) would at least be a statement by Hibs that their aims of getting prompted this year was not just empty rhetoric.

Another season of poor results and football to match could set Hibs back years and people won't have to contemplate a one match boycott as for many it will be a lifelong boycott! There will be a considerable amount of people who have found something better on which to to spend their hard earned cash and something that does not promise a weekend of anger and disillusionment.

[whiskyhibby]

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I've been having a serious think about this and I realise some of the following will not be popular (awaits name-calling, but I'm a big boy ).

I raise this point merely to provoke debate and some thought about the subject, the 'Devil's Advocate' if you wish, I'm not claiming it to be either the right or the wrong way.

------------

Hibs appear to be currently working for a long term solution to what's been wrong at the Club for years. Dempster, et al, have said as much already. There has been an emphasis on large changes in the Backroom Staff, for instance, as well as trying to change the culture around Hibs. There is now a single Football Philosophy that means we will (hopefully) have one style of play from youths through to First Team. That will make for a better transition of players from successful youth teams upward, something we haven't seen for years.

We have an untried Manager but one that is supposed to be buying into this philosophy but that also still has a lot to learn himself. He has also, regrettably, been lumbered with a number of players that have little skill and even less guts for a fight. The same ones that got us relgated. It would appear we had neither the time nor the finances to dispense with all of their services.

A number of Club statements quite rightly do not fit well with the Fans, e.g. Quality over Quantity when indeed we seem to currently have little to speak of. Dempster also said that Loan Signings were not a good option, right before we once again saw a number of them arrive at the club. Then there's the Petrie situation, which I don't think any of us are happy about.

However, what if the long term option is genuinely the only one available to Hibs?

We have gone down the route I mentioned above instead of the usual 'quick fix' of just changing the Manager every 18 months and hoping all will be well. I've mentioned lots of stuff they've got wrong but that doesn't mean that Dempster and Stubbs don't have the best interests of Hibs at heart.

Is it worth getting behind the club, accepting that they've made mistakes and that we may be down for two seasons after all?
--If not, what is the alternative?

Completely agree, the decline has been long and there are no quick fixes, but I have 100% faith in LD and AS to get us back to where we belong, at the top of Scottish football. I am not confident of promotion this year, but I firmly believe that there are very positive signs both off and on ( despite the results) the field

[EastCalderHibby]

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Totally correct.
ps your Avatar needs rearranging though: We came, we saw, they kicked our ass. Is more appropriate at the moment.

Only joshing. LOL

now you've mentioned his avatar been trying to change mine since we got rid of last incumbent but cant remember how to HELP

[Ronniekirk]

In the sense that we simply can't afford to pay off another manager and there is no transfer fund left and we still haven't had the audited accounts to know how bad a state we are financiall in , then yes we have to be patient .But what do we do at the start of next season .It will be even harder to attract decent quality players and other clubs loke Falkirk and Whoever comes down with Parachute Payment will believe they can win the Championship if they invest properly .
Our young players won't be ready to step up so we are back to loan players and we see when the going gets tough loan players don't seem to get going .
We are clearly going to be in the Championship next Season barring a miracle that would need to include as signing Leigh .
We need to plan how to bring in new investment and to do that Farmer needs to come to the next AG M and spell this out ,if we knew we were working to this and we then have reasonably priced season tickets then all may not be lost .

[Iain G]

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get us back to where we belong, at the top of Scottish football.

Do we belong there though?

[Keith_M]

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now you've mentioned his avatar been trying to change mine since we got rid of last incumbent but cant remember how to HELP

Find 'Forum Actions' near the top of the page. Click it then select 'Edit Profile'.

Once the page opens, there's a section on the left called 'My Settings' with a link to 'Edit Avatar.'