SDS Fans Consultation

[RIP]

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It's a no brainer for me. Fan ownership is the way forward

Is fan ownership anything new? Surely scottish clubs have been owned by their fans for over a century!

The only exceptions I can think of are Green, Romanov, Massone. On the other extreme there is our own benefactor.

Can anyone name a successful club not owned or run by its fans? League or Cup?

[Jack]

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Supporters Direct have been involved with Hibs for 2 years. They came to a LWT meeting in January 2013 and when the Big Issues group ran Green Views the results were shared with Supporters Direct.

There has been extensive WT/SD consultation on Kick Off times and we had a dozen or so Hibbies up in Stirling for their conference in June. It was an informative day especially meeting other fans from North and South of the Border. Club management were also in attendance.

We heard at the last WT meeting that Big Issues team are proposing to invite SD to another meeting by way of follow up. I can't see anything happening very quickly on the ownership front so maybe information and discussion will do for now, while we wait for more signings to arrive?

So who has commissioned, or asked, SDS to do this survey? The answers to the questions asked will be a very powerful asset for someone, possibly determining the future of our club.

And for anyone interested Working Together has not asked SDS to do the survey and none of its constitute parts have said it would be doing so - as far as I am aware.

Given the power of the information, any information in the circumstance of the takeover of my club I won't be taking part in any survey until I know who is behind it.

[green day]

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So who has commissioned, or asked, SDS to do this survey? The answers to the questions asked will be a very powerful asset for someone, possibly determining the future of our club.

And for anyone interested Working Together has not asked SDS to do the survey and none of its constitute parts have said it would be doing so - as far as I am aware.

Given the power of the information, any information in the circumstance of the takeover of my club I won't be taking part in any survey until I know who is behind it.

Agreed Jack.

Is this the same supporters direct that was touted for Hearts..........right up until Anne Budge bought them?

I know the "supporters" are going to buy them......but in fact they are no more supporter owned than we are.

[WhileTheChief..]

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Strange comment

Publicly funded organisation asked to provide advice and support - one of its remits - apparently is doing so in response to requests.....why should they 'do one'....

Yeah, maybe a bit strong in hindsight, i just don't want them poking their nose in.

This whole ownership thing just feels like a complete waste of time. Seems like a few groups want to own our club but want the us to pay for it. Sound familiar??

The one thing I do trust STF with is to do the right thing when it comes to selling the club on. If a new owner wants to buy the club they can go make an offer with their own real cash. All the rest is posturing and I hate it when folk think they are talking on behalf of all Hibs fans. That's bull.

[RIP]

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So who has commissioned, or asked, SDS to do this survey? The answers to the questions asked will be a very powerful asset for someone, possibly determining the future of our club.

And for anyone interested Working Together has not asked SDS to do the survey and none of its constitute parts have said it would be doing so - as far as I am aware.

Given the power of the information, any information in the circumstance of the takeover of my club I won't be taking part in any survey until I know who is behind it.

Thanks Jack. Down the Slope and I have already stated that the WT Partnership is not involved but no harm in reiterating that.

DTS and the Big Issues team ran Green Views, the last Hibs supporters consultation 18 months ago which covered a wide range of topics. The results were shared with club management. No questions were asked about ownership.

I'm pleased there's going to be a survey though. Other than a Petrie Out meeting at the Hibs Club (that I was not at) I've not heard any evidence of supporter backing for a change in ownership.

[Golden Bear]

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Yeah, maybe a bit strong in hindsight, i just don't want them poking their nose in.

This whole ownership thing just feels like a complete waste of time. Seems like a few groups want to own our club but want the us to pay for it. Sound familiar??

The one thing I do trust STF with is to do the right thing when it comes to selling the club on. If a new owner wants to buy the club they can go make an offer with their own real cash. All the rest is posturing and I hate it when folk think they are talking on behalf of all Hibs fans. That's bull.

Well said!

[s.a.m]

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Is fan ownership anything new? Surely scottish clubs have been owned by their fans for over a century!

The only exceptions I can think of are Green, Romanov, Massone. On the other extreme there is our own benefactor.

Can anyone name a successful club not owned or run by its fans? League or Cup?

I'm very probably missing the point here, but which successful Scottish clubs are owned by the fans? Celtic have a majority fan ownership, but are also the current biggest club in Scotland by some distance, so it's hard to compare.

Former Rangers: not fan owned (Murray prior to Green, and various others before that.
Celtic: mixed, with majority fan shareholders
Aberdeen: Stewart Milne / Aberdeen Asset Management (?)
Dundee Utd: Stephen Thompson majority shareholder (prev. Jim McLean)
Motherwell: Still John Boyle (I think), though he's trying to give it away.
St Johnstone: The Brown family?

I like the idea of community ownership in principle. In practice, I'm sceptical about how it would work (successfully) in Scotland.

[stokesmessiah]

I really do despair sometimes on this board and with Hibs fans in general. For god know how long now people have been moaning about the current model and setup at Hibs. Subsequently a few groups have come forward and expressed an interest in the club, now whilst i understand people are keen to safegurd the future of our club, the general attitude of people is horrendous. I have lost count of the amount of posts i have heard moaning because they dont know everything about everyone that may or may not be involved, the way a statement is worded, someones attitude, someones background, the list is endless. Can we not just hear people out and see what options are on the table without all the lame bickering and crap that goes with it?

[RIP]

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I'm very probably missing the point here, but which successful Scottish clubs are owned by the fans? Celtic have a majority fan ownership, but are also the current biggest club in Scotland by some distance, so it's hard to compare.

Former Rangers: not fan owned (Murray prior to Green, and various others before that.
Celtic: mixed, with majority fan shareholders
Aberdeen: Stewart Milne / Aberdeen Asset Management (?)
Dundee Utd: Stephen Thompson majority shareholder (prev. Jim McLean)
Motherwell: Still John Boyle (I think), though he's trying to give it away.
St Johnstone: The Brown family?

I like the idea of community ownership in principle. In practice, I'm sceptical about how it would work (successfully) in Scotland.

Thomson and Brown and their directors are are all life-long fans. Many of their directors have been involved in local football as players. St Johnstone are a good working model of a club integrated with it's community and local business.

At Dundee United the Arab trust has the third biggest shareholding. One of their directors is a founder of the Arab Trust and former Director of Supporters Direct Scotland. Another director currently represents the Arab Trust. The Trust do loads of work in their community

In the past Hibs have been run with principal shareholder, board, management, community foundation and supporters groups all operating separately. The Working Together Partnership aims to bring all these disparate elements together and has allowed us the opportunity to start building a more unified club.

The arrival of Leeann Dempster gives us the chance to start discussing the type of club we want to have in the future. Leeann has already identified that the club is too corporate and the foundation needs to be integrated into the club. Those of us that have met her are convinced that she will make great strides in this area this season working in partnership with LWT Inclusion, volunteer and community organisations. She reckons Hibs have become too corporate - and who would disagree with her view? She wants us to get back to being a football club again. Amen to that.

So although there is a lot of consultation kicking off at the moment I can't see what harm it is doing - provided all parties work together on the vision for Hibernian Football Club instead of pursuing their own agendas.

[weecounty hibby]

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I really do despair sometimes on this board and with Hibs fans in general. For god know how long now people have been moaning about the current model and setup at Hibs. Subsequently a few groups have come forward and expressed an interest in the club, now whilst i understand people are keen to safegurd the future of our club, the general attitude of people is horrendous. I have lost count of the amount of posts i have heard moaning because they dont know everything about everyone that may or may not be involved, the way a statement is worded, someones attitude, someones background, the list is endless. Can we not just hear people out and see what options are on the table without all the lame bickering and crap that goes with it?

Good point but no options have really been put on the table. As far as Im aware none of these groups has actually told us how they plan to run the club. I want to own and run Hibs too. I cant actually afford it and I font have a business plan but does that now make me another potential group in the running? Not getting at you just a bit frustrated by the whole thing

[Jack]

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Thomson and Brown and their directors are are all life-long fans. Many of their directors have been involved in local football as players. St Johnstone are a good working model of a club integrated with it's community and local business.

At Dundee United the Arab trust has the third biggest shareholding. One of their directors is a founder of the Arab Trust and former Director of Supporters Direct Scotland. Another director currently represents the Arab Trust. The Trust do loads of work in their community

In the past Hibs have been run with principal shareholder, board, management, community foundation and supporters groups all operating separately. The Working Together Partnership aims to bring all these disparate elements together and has allowed us the opportunity to start building a more unified club.

The arrival of Leeann Dempster gives us the chance to start discussing the type of club we want to have in the future. Leeann has already identified that the club is too corporate and the foundation needs to be integrated into the club. Those of us that have met her are convinced that she will make great strides in this area this season working in partnership with LWT Inclusion, volunteer and community organisations. She reckons Hibs have become too corporate - and who would disagree with her view? She wants us to get back to being a football club again. Amen to that.

So although there is a lot of consultation kicking off at the moment I can't see what harm it is doing - provided all parties work together on the vision for Hibernian Football Club instead of pursuing their own agendas.

So who is behind the SDS consultation?

If it was Hibs it would have the Hibs crest on it and endorsed on the fishy site. It doesn't and isn't.

It also doesn't look to have the Kano, Forever Hibernian, stamp of approval on it.

So if its not Hibs, or Working Together, or Forever Hibernian, then without knowing who is behind it or what their motives are this survey really is dubious to the extent that folk should be discouraged from completing it.

I have no doubt SDS are a decent, genuine lot. I think they may well have been hoodwinked into putting up this survey.

Edit: with the groups above excluded that only leaves the celtc mindit bid of Low behind this survey, or others unknown.

[Pretty Boy]

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I really do despair sometimes on this board and with Hibs fans in general. For god know how long now people have been moaning about the current model and setup at Hibs. Subsequently a few groups have come forward and expressed an interest in the club, now whilst i understand people are keen to safegurd the future of our club, the general attitude of people is horrendous. I have lost count of the amount of posts i have heard moaning because they dont know everything about everyone that may or may not be involved, the way a statement is worded, someones attitude, someones background, the list is endless. Can we not just hear people out and see what options are on the table without all the lame bickering and crap that goes with it?

It's not a case of not knowing everything. We know almost nothing.

[Keith_M]

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It's a no brainer for me. Fan ownership is the way forward.

I don't think it's that simple.

I'd like to see partial Fan Ownership, having a percentage of the Shares in the Club owned by the Fans. This would have a few benefits but the biggest would be to stop dodgy owners ever buying the Club and forcing through votes at shareholders meetings irrespective of the fans viewpoint (e.g. to sell ER)

That doesn't mean, though, that there isn't a place for Hibs Supporting businessmen holding a percentage of the Shares as well.

[Caversham Green]

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At least "Supporters Direct" have provided some insight into what exactly Community Ownership means and what it entails. I've been asking the same question on this Messageboard for weeks and it seems as though no one was willing or capable of providing an answer.

Having said that, I still can't say I'm sold on the concept.

http://www.supporters-direct.org/hom...nity-ownership

One aspect of the full community ownership model (as I understand it) is that it skews democracy in some respects. The model appears to be that an entity representing a group of fans owns 51% of the club, presumably the remaining 49% is owned by individuals. Using simple majorities the actions of the fans' entity can be decided by just over half of its members and that entity will always win a club shareholders' vote, therefore around 26% of interested parties can carry a vote over the other 74%.

As with the 'Petrie still pulling the strings' chat in practice it's unlikely to be as sinister as it might sound, but democracy it ain't.

[Caversham Green]

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I don't think it's that simple.

I'd like to see partial Fan Ownership, having a percentage of the Shares in the Club owned by the Fans. This would have a few benefits but the biggest would be to stop dodgy owners ever buying the Club and forcing through votes at shareholders meetings irrespective of the fans viewpoint (e.g. to sell ER)

That doesn't mean, though, that there isn't a place for Hibs Supporting businessmen holding a percentage of the Shares as well.

That could be achieved by converting the club to a community interest company.

[NW]

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That could be achieved by converting the club to a community interest company.

CG that's the type of feedback that will really benefit the survey

[down-the-slope]

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That could be achieved by converting the club to a community interest company.

indeed .... one of the biggest benefits of a CIC are the asset lock and the limitations on shareholder dividend

would be by far the best legal entity for the future

[NW]

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indeed .... one of the biggest benefits of a CIC are the asset lock and the limitations on shareholder dividend

would be by far the best legal entity for the future

And that is part of the education pieces planned by supporters direct using examples and experiences IF their proves to be an appetite to look into it.

[marinello59]

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And that is part of the education pieces planned by supporters direct using examples and experiences IF their proves to be an appetite to look into it.

One question that did jump out at me was the one about learning from other clubs experiences. At the very least it would help fans make an informed decision .

[NW]

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One question that did jump out at me was the one about learning from other clubs experiences. At the very least it would help fans make an informed decision .

My personal thinking is that if their is appetite to look at it we can get other clubs to explain more to us, this can then be digested and considered if right and appropriate to us.

[Leithenhibby]

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indeed .... one of the biggest benefits of a CIC are the asset lock and the limitations on shareholder dividend

would be by far the best legal entity for the future

Very interesting point, are you in a position to explain more?

[NW]

CIC is the model favoured by many clubs changing ownership to fan / community

To set up a CIC, you need to apply to Companies House, and:

include a ‘community interest statement’, explaining what your business plans to do
create an ‘asset lock’- a legal promise stating that the company’s assets will only be used for its social objectives, and setting limits to the money it can pay to shareholders

[RIP]

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One question that did jump out at me was the one about learning from other clubs experiences. At the very least it would help fans make an informed decision .

This

I was one of a large group of Hibbies who attended the recent Supporters Direct conference. I was only there substituting for DTS as our WT Big Issues group were running a workshop on TV kick off tines.

Coming away from the event and having spoken to supporters from other clubs I've realised no two clubs have the same ownership model. If things are to change at our club we need to look at these different structures and make up our minds which one is right for us

[down-the-slope]

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Very interesting point, are you in a position to explain more?

In a previous life I ran social enterprises.....the organisation was involved in the consultations that ended up with the new new legal entity that are CIC's

http://www.cicassociation.org.uk/

look here for further info

[marinello59]

Bump.

[RIP]

That's me finally got round to completing the survey. 2 minute job.

[Bostonhibby]

Done

[Pretty Boy]

Done the survey.

Takes about a minute.

[NW]

Bump

[Dave-O]

Done.