Butcher and His JOB

[Hibernia&Alba]

If we stay up, Butcher will continue I think. Get relegated and he'll be gone. I may be proved wrong, but I think it might be that simple.

[yeezus.]

It's nauseating reading this tripe about "Fenlon's duds", Butcher has been in charge for 6 months for god sake. He has to go ASAP

[Stevie Reid]

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If the players relegate us, you mean. They've been here all season. And just incase people have forgotten. Record up until Fenlon left which if these superstars had won every game they could have accumulated 42 points up until end of November alone (Fenlon leaving). Lets have a look why don't we:

L, L, D, W, D, W, W, L, W, D, L, L, L, D = 16 points in 14 games I make it. Hardly terrific is it?

Managers don't relegate teams. Players do. Sooner people realise that the better.

We had 15 points from 11 games when Fenlon left - a point per game average that would equate to 52 points over 38 games - we ended up with 35 points.

In every post I've made about Fenlon since he left I've said his time was up, but that doesn't change the fact that Butcher has unfortunately been an horrendous appointment.

Fenlon did much better with the players we had. Butcher was brought in to do better with what was there, then take us further. He has done much, much worse, and we have gone backwards at a startling rate - possibly as far backwards as it's possible to go, right into the Championship.

Fenlon is not to blame for where we are now.

[Captain Trips]

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We had 15 points from 11 games when Fenlon left - a point per game average that would equate to 52 points over 38 games - we ended up with 35 points.

In every post I've made about Fenlon since he left I've said his time was up, but that doesn't change the fact that Butcher has unfortunately been an horrendous appointment.

Fenlon did much better with the players we had. Butcher was brought in to do better with what was there, then take us further. He has done much, much worse, and we have gone backwards at a startling rate - possibly as far backwards as it's possible to go, right into the Championship.

Fenlon is not to blame for where we are now.

Good post there Steve.

[madhatter]

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The Palace example is perfectly relevant, it is all relative. £2.5 million is very little in the Premiership. Plus I notice you ignored Hughes and ICT as an example. A manager is responsible for the performance of the team. The fact is, especially as he accrued 11 of those points in the first half of the season, the players were performing to a level. He has changed things and now they have been underperforming

There are other things not right at Hibs, but there is no excuse for the rapid decline of this team. I've can't remember another team capitulate as badly as we have done this season.

And as for discrediting anyone who thinks he is doing a bad job with the Rangers stuff etc.... I haven't read a single post even mention it.

Ok, you've went there so I'll go into it. ICT have accrued 57pts and finished 5th. Their stadium takes 7800 fans and in all honesty even whilst you may feel Hughes has ICT playing worse. They have still picked up good results. Look at the results in the top 6 barring the capitulation to Celtic. They've done not bad. Oh, and their cup performance against Hearts will always be firmly remembered. So, bad comparison again. You are comparing a team that considering their size, stature, and location have done very well in the SPFL to us, who clearly have not. Whether you judge what Hughes has done as a failure is inconclusive because they, on a whole, have done well.

You've also compared us to a relegation candidate in the EPL who gets approximately 30million a year in TV rights alone. It's all relative, right enough. Relatively not linked in anyway. May as well compare us with a failing Serie A team or Bundesliga team.

I've read drivel. But this takes the biscuit. On what planet can you say that a player that gets 300k per week is not responsible for his own performance and that of the team? Why have captains then, it's the manager's responsibility after all...

I guess, Wayne Rooney mumbling "Nice to see your own fans booing you, you football 'supporters'.", is right also? I guess he should be allowed to play like a blind man with no legs and yet he can dish it out to fans (paying on that occasion considerable amounts of dosh to support) and the manager's head is still the more likely to end up underneath the guillotine.

I can visualise it now. I'm sorry, I have been wrong. Surgeons have went in to the theatre and accidentally taken out a man's heart instead of his eye. Even though their superior (head of the hospital wasn't in attendance), they are to blame for their incompetence. Ah...

[madhatter]

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It's nauseating reading this tripe about "Fenlon's duds", Butcher has been in charge for 6 months for god sake. He has to go ASAP

Tell you what, you can pay the compensation then. Still as rowdy and confident about your statement? No, thought not.

You can also cover the costs of paying compensation at the club where this so called "ideal" replacement manager is. Or are you planning on becoming the manager?

[Heedersnvolleys]

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Please just look at my post regarding form up until November 23rd. If it was simply the manager then clearly, I'm struggling with logical thinking, because all I see is incapable players being brought in on the cheap, managers getting sacked and the next manager gets the same. Is the 5 year plan to continually sack managers over the space of 20 years until we luckily unearth a Hibs supporting "one of us" Alex Ferguson or something? Fans need to get real. We are failing for these reasons:

Other clubs speculate to accumulate; Hibs accumulate to speculate.
Other clubs strive to get best possible signings in, and as early as possible; Hibs leave it until 1 week before season starts and sign players then (3rd, 4th, 5th choice signing done on the cheap).
Other clubs realise that ultimately fans want to see a successful team on the pitch; Hibs think fans just want the club to engage with the community.
Other clubs have a better relationship with fans; Hibs have systematically disintegrated this through the years.
Other clubs do rallying calls and pull off big victories; Hibs fail and embarrass fans.

If you want the best, you need the best players and a decent manager. Players will always be more important than a manager. Your Crystal Palace example is flawed mainly due to the fact they have some skilful players that have a bit of class. Plus, guess what, they brought in players like Joe Ledley for a rumored price of 2.5mil. So, once again, argument flawed. Buy the best or expect the worst. Simple as.

Do you not do short posts?

Your argument back though is also flawed! 2.5 mil for a player in the EPL percentage of income wise is like us signing a player for £20k so hardly game changing!

What I think he is trying to get across is Crystal Palace are now organised, disciplined, have a work ethic and now hard to beat. All what we had hoped TB would bring to us. All things I had thought ICT had when he was there. He has brought none of that to us. You may need new players that suits his style of play buy a decent manager should at least get with the players at his disposal to do the above. A management team of 2 international defenders and we are a shambles at the back.

[madhatter]

Hilarious comments on here. Truly are. We've been in decline since 2007 at the very least and yet because the **** has eventually hit the fans (destined to happen as far as I'm concerned - it was coming), people are blaming the current manager. Truly despicable. Especially when, from what I've seen on this forum, people are taking the 5-1, 3-0 SC Finals with a positive spin, they are taking the fact we got into Europe as a positive. Even though fans turned up in large numbers to get humiliated and a result has now been inserted in a record book.

In their time, every single manager after John Collins has been woeful at best. Not just Fenlon. When we should have been a guaranteed top6 team, we have regularly flirted with relegation and often flattered to deceive. Finishing 7th or above and resorting more and more to simple football.

Players need to be culpable and it just shows what an easy life they get. Various first team members out getting ******* on the night we confirm our place in a relegation playoff. Our manager looking physically older, 7 months into the job. In fact, he also looks quite ill and who do the large percentage of fans attack? The manager. Absurd.

So much so, we had a thread here, where people were asking those revolted by the players going on a bender, if they knew the employment laws regarding this being a breach of contract? And that this is acceptable as they don't have another game for another 10 days...I truly hate to say this but people need to get a grip. You are attacking a man that does visibly seem to care - at the previous (mini) protest, he had the decency to address the fans even though the flak was directed at him - and in the same vein many of you say these players going for a few drinks is fine.

These people have the easiest job on the planet. If they can't abstain from drinking after losing a vital game, they are wasters. If they can't do their job, even to a basic level (keep the ball/stop ball going into own net) then it is their fault. I'm sure Terry would have loved to have been sliding face first to block Boyd's shot to help the team but he can't. He only has flat footed defenders at the moment.

[FitbaFolkKen]

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Ok, you've went there so I'll go into it. ICT have accrued 57pts and finished 5th. Their stadium takes 7800 fans and in all honesty even whilst you may feel Hughes has ICT playing worse. They have still picked up good results. Look at the results in the top 6 barring the capitulation to Celtic. They've done not bad. Oh, and their cup performance against Hearts will always be firmly remembered. So, bad comparison again. You are comparing a team that considering their size, stature, and location have done very well in the SPFL to us, who clearly have not. Whether you judge what Hughes has done as a failure is inconclusive because they, on a whole, have done well.

You've also compared us to a relegation candidate in the EPL who gets approximately 30million a year in TV rights alone. It's all relative, right enough. Relatively not linked in anyway. May as well compare us with a failing Serie A team or Bundesliga team.

I've read drivel. But this takes the biscuit. On what planet can you say that a player that gets 300k per week is not responsible for his own performance and that of the team? Why have captains then, it's the manager's responsibility after all...

I guess, Wayne Rooney mumbling "Nice to see your own fans booing you, you football 'supporters'.", is right also? I guess he should be allowed to play like a blind man with no legs and yet he can dish it out to fans (paying on that occasion considerable amounts of dosh to support) and the manager's head is still the more likely to end up underneath the guillotine.

I can visualise it now. I'm sorry, I have been wrong. Surgeons have went in to the theatre and accidentally taken out a man's heart instead of his eye. Even though their superior (head of the hospital wasn't in attendance), they are to blame for their incompetence. Ah...

You clearly don't understand the term relative. We are talking about how teams react with a change of manager, which you are saying has no impact as it's all down to the players. I used Crystal Palace to highlight the positive influence a new manager can have. I used ICT as an example of a negative, I don't feel Hughes has done worse than Butcher, his stats are significantly worse. Money etc... has nothing to do with it. The money is inconsequential as you are talking about the circumstances of that club. Much like when we compare Butchers record to every other Hibs manager.

Your point was it isn't Butchers fault, my point is that it is.

You can keep the snidey sarcastic remarks to yourself by the way.

[FitbaFolkKen]

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Do you not do short posts?

Your argument back though is also flawed! 2.5 mil for a player in the EPL percentage of income wise is like us signing a player for £20k so hardly game changing!

What I think he is trying to get across is Crystal Palace are now organised, disciplined, have a work ethic and now hard to beat. All what we had hoped TB would bring to us. All things I had thought ICT had when he was there. He has brought none of that to us. You may need new players that suits his style of play buy a decent manager should at least get with the players at his disposal to do the above. A management team of 2 international defenders and we are a shambles at the back.

Yeah he missed the point then went off on one.

[madhatter]

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Do you not do short posts?

Your argument back though is also flawed! 2.5 mil for a player in the EPL percentage of income wise is like us signing a player for £20k so hardly game changing!

What I think he is trying to get across is Crystal Palace are now organised, disciplined, have a work ethic and now hard to beat. All what we had hoped TB would bring to us. All things I had thought ICT had when he was there. He has brought none of that to us. You may need new players that suits his style of play buy a decent manager should at least get with the players at his disposal to do the above. A management team of 2 international defenders and we are a shambles at the back.

No, I'm trying to drill this in. As people cannot comprehend it clearly.

No, they are not comparable. 2.5mil gets you Joe Ledley. 20k gets you Kenny Deuchar. One you would say is more likely to change games. On the hand also, Griffiths vs Collins being an example of financial terms being an incorrect comparison also - players attitude and skill matter; not cost. However, regularly cost is linked.

Crystal Palace. How many internationalists do they have playing in first team (starting)?

Mariappa : 16 caps (Jamaica)
Dikgacoi : 54 caps (South Africa)
Delanny : 8 caps (Republic of Ireland)
Jedinak : 43 caps (Australia)
Chamakh : 63 caps (Morocco)
Ledley : 50 caps (Wales)
Bolasie : 3 caps (DR Congo)

Yeah, ICT had decent players as well. Do people honestly think that as a good manager you can achieve much with useless players? Is that what we're talking about here? Really? Shambles at back? Haha, that isn't due to McGivern and Nelson right enough. That's due to management team who haven't managed to bless Nelson and McGivern with the power of pace and with the power to pass a ball. Haha...

[Captain Trips]

The players are culpable. What we looked for in Butcher was to work with them and maybe at least and I mean at least steady things. He hasn't steadied he has become as culpable as the players if not more so.

I expect a manager of this club even with these players to cobble more than one win in last 20. Terry has quite simply made a total mess of it this season.

[madhatter]

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You clearly don't understand the term relative. We are talking about how teams react with a change of manager, which you are saying has no impact as it's all down to the players. I used Crystal Palace to highlight the positive influence a new manager can have. I used ICT as an example of a negative, I don't feel Hughes has done worse than Butcher, his stats are significantly worse. Money etc... has nothing to do with it. The money is inconsequential as you are talking about the circumstances of that club. Much like when we compare Butchers record to every other Hibs manager.

Your point was it isn't Butchers fault, my point is that it is.

You can keep the snidey sarcastic remarks to yourself by the way.

Oh by the way, at no point did I say it wasn't Butcher's fault - go check my posts. I said placing all blame on this manager is ridiculous. Fenlon, Calderwood and all those that came before contributed to this. These players are contributing to this (in a great way). Whilst Butcher may not have had a great effect, these players should in their own right do better. They are paid to do better.

Snidey sarcastic remarks?

[SMAXXA]

Butchers made a lot of mistakes between alienating a lot of his squad, snap judgments on people but the biggest of them all was his total failure in the january transfer window. There was a budget there and he didn't maximise it or bring in better players. If his view is that the squad is that bad a man in his position should have brought in better IMO. Granted January is more difficult than the summer however you get 2 transfer windows a season and he failed badly.

[FitbaFolkKen]

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No, I'm trying to drill this in. As people cannot comprehend it clearly.

No, they are not comparable. 2.5mil gets you Joe Ledley. 20k gets you Kenny Deuchar. One you would say is more likely to change games. On the hand also, Griffiths vs Collins being an example of financial terms being an incorrect comparison also - players attitude and skill matter; not cost. However, regularly cost is linked.

Crystal Palace. How many internationalists do they have playing in first team (starting)?

Mariappa : 16 caps (Jamaica)
Dikgacoi : 54 caps (South Africa)
Delanny : 8 caps (Republic of Ireland)
Jedinak : 43 caps (Australia)
Chamakh : 63 caps (Morocco)
Ledley : 50 caps (Wales)
Bolasie : 3 caps (DR Congo)

Yeah, ICT had decent players as well. Do people honestly think that as a good manager you can achieve much with useless players? Is that what we're talking about here? Really? Shambles at back? Haha, that isn't due to McGivern and Nelson right enough. That's due to management team who haven't managed to bless Nelson and McGivern with the power of pace and with the power to pass a ball. Haha...

You've missed the point by miles, yes crystal palace have those players but so do every other team in that league. Hence it's relative as our squad is comparable with at least 5 or 6 teams in the league. So for Pulis to go in and take the side from bottom and finish miles clear of relegation displays the impact a manager can have. John Hughes going into ICT and taking them from 2nd down to 5th again shows the impact a manager can have. Gus Poyet again shows the impact a manager can have with his efforts at Sunderland.

[FitbaFolkKen]

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Oh by the way, at no point did I say it wasn't Butcher's fault - go check my posts. I said placing all blame on this manager is ridiculous. Fenlon, Calderwood and all those that came before contributed to this. These players are contributing to this (in a great way). Whilst Butcher may not have had a great effect, these players should in their own right do better. They are paid to do better.

Snidey sarcastic remarks?

Drivel etc... Anyway we aren't going to agree so I'm out :)

[madhatter]

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Yeah he missed the point then went off on one.

I didn't miss the point actually. Understood it perfectly. No one seems to understand that if we are to sack Butcher - we need a replacement (compensation likely), we need to pay Butcher et al compensation, we'd then need to get a whole new team as is evident. Who is going to pay for all this? Who is going to pay for it when it happens next year when we've sacked 1-2 managers whilst a team of "superstars" fails.

An example is Man Utd. Players didn't like Moyes; he got sacked. In all cases, did a good job at Everton and will be snapped up by another team soon enough. Is he a bad manager? Or were the players unprofessional?

[Captain Trips]

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I didn't miss the point actually. Understood it perfectly. No one seems to understand that if we are to sack Butcher - we need a replacement (compensation likely), we need to pay Butcher et al compensation, we'd then need to get a whole new team as is evident. Who is going to pay for all this? Who is going to pay for it when it happens next year when we've sacked 1-2 managers whilst a team of "superstars" fails.

An example is Man Utd. Players didn't like Moyes; he got sacked. In all cases, did a good job at Everton and will be snapped up by another team soon enough. Is he a bad manager? Or were the players unprofessional?

What we want is we can't sack Butcher because of the good results in xyz and the good performances in abc. Regardless of what goes on elsewhere the only argument to keep him appears to be financial. Says it all to me as footballing wise there is zero and after 6 months there should be better reason for him to stay than what I have seen.

[madhatter]

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Drivel etc... Anyway we aren't going to agree so I'm out :)

Were not meant as being snidey comments and they weren't sarcastic. We, as a club, simply cannot keep sacking the manager. It is unsustainable and is constantly causing a deficit in our funds and hasn't, for at least 7 years, taken us forward. These comments weren't directed at you but at the attitude managers are always the main culpable party. How can a well liked manager move from one club (ICT) where he was successful and had received accolades to another club (Hibs) where he looks nothing but a disaster. It's what is around him - "You're only as good as those around you". A good manager wants good employees that can work with them.

He is to blame, the predecessors are to blame, the players are to blame. Change manager doesn't fix this; it is just passing the buck.

Anyway, have a good one!

[Captain Trips]

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Were not meant as being snidey comments and they weren't sarcastic. We, as a club, simply cannot keep sacking the manager. It is unsustainable and is constantly causing a deficit in our funds and hasn't, for at least 7 years, taken us forward. These comments weren't directed at you but at the attitude managers are always the main culpable party. How can a well liked manager move from one club (ICT) where he was successful and had received accolades to another club (Hibs) where he looks nothing but a disaster. It's what is around him - "You're only as good as those around you". A good manager wants good employees that can work with them.

He is to blame, the predecessors are to blame, the players are to blame. Change manager doesn't fix this; it is just passing the buck.

Anyway, have a good one!

No the problem isn't we keep sacking mangers the problem is we keep hiring bad ones. We stop doing that then we do not need to sack anyone.

[madhatter]

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What we want is we can't sack Butcher because of the good results in xyz and the good performances in abc. Regardless of what goes on elsewhere the only argument to keep him appears to be financial. Says it all to me as footballing wise there is zero and after 6 months there should be better reason for him to stay than what I have seen.

"Says it all to me as footballing wise there is zero and after 6 months there should be better reason for" the players "to stay than what I have seen"? Can't apply this to a manager without applying it to his employees. Who are also the failing employees of his predecessor btw. I'm simply trying to stop this "sack the manager" trend. I do not in anyway show favoritism towards Butcher. I've liked other managers much more but sadly same story each time. Employees (players) who let down the employer (club - us) and a new manager (fall guy) gets hired.

[FitbaFolkKen]

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"Says it all to me as footballing wise there is zero and after 6 months there should be better reason for" the players "to stay than what I have seen"? Can't apply this to a manager without applying it to his employees. Who are also the failing employees of his predecessor btw. I'm simply trying to stop this "sack the manager" trend. I do not in anyway show favoritism towards Butcher. I've liked other managers much more but sadly same story each time. Employees (players) who let down the employer (club - us) and a new manager (fall guy) gets hired.

The reason the manager is the fall guy, as with any other business, is because it is their job to set expectations and then hold his employees accountable for those. That is what he is paid for, to manage those members of staff. Particularly relevant when it comes to dealing with under-performing individuals.

[Diclonius]

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Hilarious comments on here. Truly are. We've been in decline since 2007 at the very least and yet because the **** has eventually hit the fans (destined to happen as far as I'm concerned - it was coming), people are blaming the current manager. Truly despicable. Especially when, from what I've seen on this forum, people are taking the 5-1, 3-0 SC Finals with a positive spin, they are taking the fact we got into Europe as a positive. Even though fans turned up in large numbers to get humiliated and a result has now been inserted in a record book.

In their time, every single manager after John Collins has been woeful at best. Not just Fenlon. When we should have been a guaranteed top6 team, we have regularly flirted with relegation and often flattered to deceive. Finishing 7th or above and resorting more and more to simple football.

Players need to be culpable and it just shows what an easy life they get. Various first team members out getting ******* on the night we confirm our place in a relegation playoff. Our manager looking physically older, 7 months into the job. In fact, he also looks quite ill and who do the large percentage of fans attack? The manager. Absurd.

So much so, we had a thread here, where people were asking those revolted by the players going on a bender, if they knew the employment laws regarding this being a breach of contract? And that this is acceptable as they don't have another game for another 10 days...I truly hate to say this but people need to get a grip. You are attacking a man that does visibly seem to care - at the previous (mini) protest, he had the decency to address the fans even though the flak was directed at him - and in the same vein many of you say these players going for a few drinks is fine.

These people have the easiest job on the planet. If they can't abstain from drinking after losing a vital game, they are wasters. If they can't do their job, even to a basic level (keep the ball/stop ball going into own net) then it is their fault. I'm sure Terry would have loved to have been sliding face first to block Boyd's shot to help the team but he can't. He only has flat footed defenders at the moment.

Butcher isn't absolved of blame for our current situation but the way things are panning out you'd think everything was fine until he took over. Our board will be laughing right now.

[Captain Trips]

It is my opinion that these players were better than 11th. Now for me Butcher has played a huge part in that and let's say some of the players have dropped off there performance then why have they?

Now yes if a player has dropped his game that's a disgrace and I don't want us to have these type of players but equally I don't want a manager here causing that or not doing enough about it.

[madhatter]

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No the problem isn't we keep sacking mangers the problem is we keep hiring bad ones. We stop doing that then we do not need to sack anyone.

What is a good one? We've hired ones with unquestionable success elsewhere so what is the answer? Ex-hibees? An inexperienced Ian Murray? We had Hughes after he did really well at Falkirk. We had Mixu and failed yet he did well at Killie. We, barring, a few bizarre appointments (Calderwood), have always went with someone who is perceived as a good choice. If we got Stuart McCall, people would be happy and if failure came about, we'd be here - "We keep hiring bad ones".

If it was all down to the manager, why did Tony Mowbray (48.15% win ratio with us) fail at Middlesborough? Why is John Collins (42.59% win ratio with us) not managing one of the top French teams?

Do not misinterpret me though, Butcher has been an unmitigated disaster so far. The summer will be his time though and he has to be given that. He can then resign in November, so we can save money.

[madhatter]

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The reason the manager is the fall guy, as with any other business, is because it is their job to set expectations and then hold his employees accountable for those. That is what he is paid for, to manage those members of staff. Particularly relevant when it comes to dealing with under-performing individuals.

I agree but you can't possibly think that even under Fenlon these players were playing to their potential. This goes further than manager. He could motivate ICT players so I don't see the difference...Chemistry is important between manager and players but I've seen managers come and go like there's no tomorrow. So, it must be a volatile chemical reaction at Hibs! Another thing is, he is likely to leave us and be successful elsewhere. So, is that still manager or was it players?

[Captain Trips]

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What is a good one? We've hired ones with unquestionable success elsewhere so what is the answer? Ex-hibees? An inexperienced Ian Murray? We had Hughes after he did really well at Falkirk. We had Mixu and failed yet he did well at Killie. We, barring, a few bizarre appointments (Calderwood), have always went with someone who is perceived as a good choice. If we got Stuart McCall, people would be happy and if failure came about, we'd be here - "We keep hiring bad ones".

If it was all down to the manager, why did Tony Mowbray (48.15% win ratio with us) fail at Middlesborough? Why is John Collins (42.59% win ratio with us) not managing one of the top French teams?

Do not misinterpret me though, Butcher has been an unmitigated disaster so far. The summer will be his time though and he has to be given that. He can then resign in November, so we can save money.

Managers move clubs based on their record. TB had a good record at ICT but that means nothing now. He moved to new circumstance new players. Equally managers with poor records and get sacked also go onto next job and do well.

Mowbray got WBA job based on what he did at Hibs I guess largely doesn't mean it will work. I have never said it is all down to manager IMO these players though not the best for me were capable of better than 11th. We failed for me so I blame Butcher and if players dropped game that concerns me on TB influence also.

[madhatter]

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It is my opinion that these players were better than 11th. Now for me Butcher has played a huge part in that and let's say some of the players have dropped off there performance then why have they?

Now yes if a player has dropped his game that's a disgrace and I don't want us to have these type of players but equally I don't want a manager here causing that or not doing enough about it.

Performances have dropped off because players are out of contract (likely to have moves lined up) and don't want to get injured or at the very least know that they are away (hence Williams joking about with Boyd whilst we are 0-1 down in relegation battle). No manager can motivate a player or, employee for that matter, who is leaving. If you won the lottery or had another job lined up would you be working in your current job full-pelt? Unlikely, you may still put effort in but you wouldn't burst a gut or be creative, innovative and think how can I better the ways I'm doing things? These players are probably thinking - "Barbados or Ibiza for the summer?Hmm...". Some players are also on loan, so it's really viewed as a wee trip to Scotland before heading back to their "main" club - it is rare for players to think otherwise.

Until injuries occurred, Butcher played the same team that got him the consecutive wins. So, one can only assume players have dropped their games.

[Captain Trips]

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Performances have dropped off because players are out of contract (likely to have moves lined up) and don't want to get injured or at the very least know that they are away (hence Williams joking about with Boyd whilst we are 0-1 down in relegation battle). No manager can motivate a player or, employee for that matter, who is leaving. If you won the lottery or had another job lined up would you be working in your current job full-pelt? Unlikely, you may still put effort in but you wouldn't burst a gut or be creative, innovative and think how can I better the ways I'm doing things? These players are probably thinking - "Barbados or Ibiza for the summer?Hmm...". Some players are also on loan, so it's really viewed as a wee trip to Scotland before heading back to their "main" club - it is rare for players to think otherwise.

Until injuries occurred, Butcher played the same team that got him the consecutive wins. So, one can only assume players have dropped their games.

If those players are not fighting for cause and you are seeing it then TB must surely see it and therefore show the man management skills to address this. It is all a sorry affair with bad players at club and unfortunately managed by somebody who thus far has shown nothing to convince me if anything positive.

You say about lottery and new job but the players that are leaving have they a club to go to? Have any signed a pre contract? If not perhaps best to keep up with your best in case being watched.

[Hibbyradge]

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Managers don't relegate teams. Players do. Sooner people realise that the better.

What if the manager is demotivating the players by bullying them?