If I was Butcher I would walk...

[matty_f]

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If I were Butcher I'd be looking at getting a side together that was the future - some players as he says are not hurting and clearly need to be told don't come to the training centre again. Cast out in the cold, wilderness of Bosman football wasters.

Again it's a mentality thing. We have a U20 side who are brimming with confidence, scoring plenty, and play for James.

I'd ask James to step up to the dug out and stand aside Terry, put in Black, Baptie, Horribine and Smith. Also play Cummings the next 4 games, starting place guaranteed. Watmore would start every game too.

Nelson is rank rotten, I'd consider maybe Maybury at centre half with Jordon. Only because of experience and he played there this year for the 20's and his distribution is way way better than Nelson.

Fan mentality is crucial too - I genuinely think we'd be right behind younger players and not the wasters that have gone on this unenviabnle run. Quite often the reason given by people is 'why throw in youngsters into a side like this' - well why not ? These young players goal in life is to make it as a player, take that chance once it's there, and retain their place and progress - or why bother being a pro footballer ?

Terry - if it were me and you are doubting whether some are hurting - show them you care about the club and drop the ones you feel are not bothered. Cast them aside. Simple as that. And get James into that dug out please - he absolutely hurts in defeat and loves winning. That is what we need on the sidelines, and it offers our youngsters a voice they listen to and respect.

Good post.

I don't think Butcher should walk. The squad is neither up to it, nor up for it IMHO. We have no real leaders on the park at the moment, nobody carrying the team through games. Our back four today gives me nightmares, but it was almost the only back four Butcher could have played. Maybury wanted to retire this season but we've needed to throw him in, Nelson has been dreadful and we're missing Hanlon badly. Stevenson puts in a shift at left-back but he's a make-shift option there at best.

The midfield lacks balance, we're relying on people who aren't match fit (KT, OTJ) and kids right now.

Up front we have nobody. Heff's injured, Collins has all the goalscoring prowess of Christian Nade, and then there's Cummings - prolific at youth level but not doing it at senior level yet.

We have a very, very poor squad. With everyone fit and available, we are at least competitive with the rest of the league and better than some of it. Take out players like Robertson, Heffernan, Hanlon, McGivern (even though he's been pish, it means Stevenson can play midfield) and it shows a squad badly lacking in genuine quality and character.

I have no idea of our best 11, or where our strengths lie, and I don't think anyone on here could put a starting 11 together from the players that are available to Butcher that we'd all look at and be confident of getting a result against anyone.

This squad were on the slide when Fenlon left, we were going full games without an attempt on target. Fair enough we weren't shipping goals like we are now, but we weren't an attacking force at all either. Fenlon left because of that, Butcher can't work miracles with this squad, he needs to get players in before we see any improvement.

[Saturdays Hero]

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What poisoned chalice? He inherited a good squad in the process of improving and has decimated absolutely everything that was useful in it. That's nobody's fault but his own.

A good squad ✋😂

[blackpoolhibs]

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Good post.

I don't think Butcher should walk. The squad is neither up to it, nor up for it IMHO. We have no real leaders on the park at the moment, nobody carrying the team through games. Our back four today gives me nightmares, but it was almost the only back four Butcher could have played. Maybury wanted to retire this season but we've needed to throw him in, Nelson has been dreadful and we're missing Hanlon badly. Stevenson puts in a shift at left-back but he's a make-shift option there at best.

The midfield lacks balance, we're relying on people who aren't match fit (KT, OTJ) and kids right now.

Up front we have nobody. Heff's injured, Collins has all the goalscoring prowess of Christian Nade, and then there's Cummings - prolific at youth level but not doing it at senior level yet.

We have a very, very poor squad. With everyone fit and available, we are at least competitive with the rest of the league and better than some of it. Take out players like Robertson, Heffernan, Hanlon, McGivern (even though he's been pish, it means Stevenson can play midfield) and it shows a squad badly lacking in genuine quality and character.

I have no idea of our best 11, or where our strengths lie, and I don't think anyone on here could put a starting 11 together from the players that are available to Butcher that we'd all look at and be confident of getting a result against anyone.

This squad were on the slide when Fenlon left, we were going full games without an attempt on target. Fair enough we weren't shipping goals like we are now, but we weren't an attacking force at all either. Fenlon left because of that, Butcher can't work miracles with this squad, he needs to get players in before we see any improvement.

Why play both of them today, neither have played much football recently but butcher decides to play both. The guy is working his ticket in my opinion, and does not give a **** about us. GTF Butcher and take that clown who sits next to you too.

[Centre Hawf]

Can't believe folk are saying this is Fenlons fault, we would never have been in this position if he stayed. We would have made top 6 with him I reckon.

Butcher is tactically inept and his shown the worst man management skills for a while. Get this fud launched as quickly as possible.

[truehibernian]

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Can't believe folk are saying this is Fenlons fault, we would never have been in this position if he stayed. We would have made top 6 with him I reckon.

Butcher is tactically inept and his shown the worst man management skills for a while. Get this fud launched as quickly as possible.

For me it's a combination of Rod and Pat that said, Terry Butcher's recent management has left me stunned.

But we are where we are because of a chronic inability to identify good players by Pat, added to which Rod's absolute stubbornness to spend top dollar on certain targets who were willing - and the usual last minute scramble coupled with statements about 'being together'.

I honestly think TB thought a couple of wins would come and they could plan - I now think he has been drawn into the panic and it's showing in his interviews.

I posted last week, where has James 'our leader' McPake been throughout this ? Why has he not come forward with a few interviews, letting the fans know where the players stand ? Yes he is rehabilitating but it's far far far from his 'this club won't be pushovers' stand he took last year.......that tells me where the players are. Totally and utterly disinterested some of them and being quite cunning about it too.

Really sad days when you have experienced players hiding (not just McPake).

[JimBHibees]

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Why play both of them today, neither have played much football recently but butcher decides to play both. The guy is working his ticket in my opinion, and does not give a **** about us. GTF Butcher and take that clown who sits next to you too.

Disagree and well harsh. You were gagging for Thomson to be played and he did. His selections have been inconsistent that is for sure. I would have Cummings play from now on and bring Taiwo and Robertson back in with Watmore right and Craig wide left.

[truehibernian]

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Disagree and well harsh. You were gagging for Thomson to be played and he did. His selections have been inconsistent that is for sure. I would have Cummings play from now on and bring Taiwo and Robertson back in with Watmore right and Craig wide left.

Jim, I'd easily have Thomson in my side every week. But like McInnes at A'deen, I'd be cute about where to play him - he'd be my 'sitter' in front of the defence. He needs games and he needs to sharpen up but he'd be in my side as he adds composure.

What I'm always drawn to is an old Eddie Turnbull adage that you build your side, regardless, around a good defence - and we play roulette when it comes to selection there. Eddie rated a guy called Jim Black, who my dad had a love hate thing going on with - but by all accounts he was the wee bit glue and 'steel' that the great 70's side needed when required to get stuck in. I was too young to appreciate it. We have a left midfielder who will play anywhere he is asked because he is a pro - yet he is not comfy at left back. We played a centre half at right back, and we played an ageing right back who has done more coaching than playing - at the top flight of football ??

For me, Terry has to bite the bullet and take a chance with Black and Baptie - they both know the positions of full back, and they both drive forward - they have energy and dig. Play Thommo in front of a pairing of say Jordon and Maybury, you have experience to lead the, through the game. But we have Nelson who simply treats the ball as a grenade, who isn't leading or talking to Jordon through games, and we have wee Lewis islolated. Recipe for disaster.

[matty_f]

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Why play both of them today, neither have played much football recently but butcher decides to play both. The guy is working his ticket in my opinion, and does not give a **** about us. GTF Butcher and take that clown who sits next to you too.

I don't think Butcher is deciding to play them, he's pishing with the cock he's got. Aside from Stanton, there is nobody in that squad right now that Butcher can hang his hat on for a performance. Taiwo and Stevenson might get a mention in that bracket as well, but neither of them are game winners. What does Butcher do- stick with Taiwo and Craig because Thomson and OTJ needs a few games? He can't - he has to try something.

He's caught between a rock and a hard place with it. I don't know his best 11, Fenlon didn't know his best 11 from that lot, there's a good reason for that.

[Nando™]

If I was Butcher I wouldn't play 5 in the midfield if my intention was to hoof it to the forward (singular) as soon as possible.

[coco22]

I posted earlier while still raging about today and things in general. Have had a chance to cool down (a bit) but genuinely let down and bemused as to how we have ended up where we are this season. Was very upbeat when butcher joined and want him to do well. Obviously he's no the only issue but really tired of the 'something's rotten at this club' banter - it's true but really can't stomach the next (inevitable?) search for the answer to all our problems.

[Alfred E Newman]

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Jim, I'd easily have Thomson in my side every week. But like McInnes at A'deen, I'd be cute about where to play him - he'd be my 'sitter' in front of the defence. He needs games and he needs to sharpen up but he'd be in my side as he adds composure.

What I'm always drawn to is an old Eddie Turnbull adage that you build your side, regardless, around a good defence - and we play roulette when it comes to selection there. Eddie rated a guy called Jim Black, who my dad had a love hate thing going on with - but by all accounts he was the wee bit glue and 'steel' that the great 70's side needed when required to get stuck in. I was too young to appreciate it. We have a left midfielder who will play anywhere he is asked because he is a pro - yet he is not comfy at left back. We played a centre half at right back, and we played an ageing right back who has done more coaching than playing - at the top flight of football ??

For me, Terry has to bite the bullet and take a chance with Black and Baptie - they both know the positions of full back, and they both drive forward - they have energy and dig. Play Thommo in front of a pairing of say Jordon and Maybury, you have experience to lead the, through the game. But we have Nelson who simply treats the ball as a grenade, who isn't leading or talking to Jordon through games, and we have wee Lewis islolated. Recipe for disaster.

Why did he not try and improve the defence during the January window? It's been our Achilles heel all season and beyond.

[JimBHibees]

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Jim, I'd easily have Thomson in my side every week. But like McInnes at A'deen, I'd be cute about where to play him - he'd be my 'sitter' in front of the defence. He needs games and he needs to sharpen up but he'd be in my side as he adds composure.

What I'm always drawn to is an old Eddie Turnbull adage that you build your side, regardless, around a good defence - and we play roulette when it comes to selection there. Eddie rated a guy called Jim Black, who my dad had a love hate thing going on with - but by all accounts he was the wee bit glue and 'steel' that the great 70's side needed when required to get stuck in. I was too young to appreciate it. We have a left midfielder who will play anywhere he is asked because he is a pro - yet he is not comfy at left back. We played a centre half at right back, and we played an ageing right back who has done more coaching than playing - at the top flight of football ??

For me, Terry has to bite the bullet and take a chance with Black and Baptie - they both know the positions of full back, and they both drive forward - they have energy and dig. Play Thommo in front of a pairing of say Jordon and Maybury, you have experience to lead the, through the game. But we have Nelson who simply treats the ball as a grenade, who isn't leading or talking to Jordon through games, and we have wee Lewis islolated. Recipe for disaster.

Agree completely. Butcher needs to punt the guff because they are taking us down and getting him the sack.

[matty_f]

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Jim, I'd easily have Thomson in my side every week. But like McInnes at A'deen, I'd be cute about where to play him - he'd be my 'sitter' in front of the defence. He needs games and he needs to sharpen up but he'd be in my side as he adds composure.

What I'm always drawn to is an old Eddie Turnbull adage that you build your side, regardless, around a good defence - and we play roulette when it comes to selection there. Eddie rated a guy called Jim Black, who my dad had a love hate thing going on with - but by all accounts he was the wee bit glue and 'steel' that the great 70's side needed when required to get stuck in. I was too young to appreciate it. We have a left midfielder who will play anywhere he is asked because he is a pro - yet he is not comfy at left back. We played a centre half at right back, and we played an ageing right back who has done more coaching than playing - at the top flight of football ??

For me, Terry has to bite the bullet and take a chance with Black and Baptie - they both know the positions of full back, and they both drive forward - they have energy and dig. Play Thommo in front of a pairing of say Jordon and Maybury, you have experience to lead the, through the game. But we have Nelson who simply treats the ball as a grenade, who isn't leading or talking to Jordon through games, and we have wee Lewis islolated. Recipe for disaster.

Butcher's not playing roulette with the defence, that's what he's got to deal with. I don't think he can put three youngsters in with Nelson in a team in our positions, I really don't. If we were safe and Butcher had the injury/suspension issues that he has with the defence than absolutely put the youth players in and give them a chance.

Today, as much as it frightens me to say it, he played the strongest back four available to him. That's a huge worry.

[Centre Hawf]

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For me it's a combination of Rod and Pat that said, Terry Butcher's recent management has left me stunned.

But we are where we are because of a chronic inability to identify good players by Pat.

If you looked at his signings though:

Craig was a goalscoring midfielder who we all agreed was a good signing.

Robertson our most consistent player this season.

Williams our best keeper for a while.

McGivern was a signing everyone agreed would be a good bit of business of we had managed to keep him, which we did.

Nelson was a decent centre half that was limited but was "no nonsense"

Thomson is deemed the best player at the club by everyone here.

Taiwo has been the best player in the last month or so (not sure why he was dropped)

Heffernan is widely accepted as the best finisher at the club who has a decent SPL record.

Is Fenlons signings that bad or are they mismanaged and given poor tactics? My moneys on the latter.

[Elephant Stone]

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Then you must have a very very poor memory.

We've got a strong squad. Do we? Aye?

We had a squad that was 5th in the league and had the best defence in the league outside Celtic. We did. Aye.

[emerald green]

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This has all happened ever since Butcher decided to tell the world who was wanted and who was going to show the door. Rumours of training ground bust ups, unhappy players, bullying by Malpas after games, the whole squad have gave in all because Butcher has lost the dressing room big style.

I've always said don't listen to rumours, but in this case there must surely be some truth in them. Otherwise, how can the complete collapse in performances and results since about just after New Year be explained? One win in 15 games or something like that I think.

[portycabbage]

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If Fenlon could have won derbies (something no Hibs manager has done with regularity since McLeish) he'd probably still be our manager, we'd probably be 6th or 7th in the league, and the discontent about him would just be the odd grumble.

Fenlon was unbeaten in derbies last season (w2 d3, should have been other way about too), he left because his team looked like they were trying to run down the clock, just trying to keep possession (without any real attacking play) for the whole game every week, and because of the capitulation in other important games. Maybe if he'd won derbies this season you would have a point, but I think it's stretching it a bit. And we're actually still 7th now!

[truehibernian]

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If you looked at his signings though:

Craig was a goalscoring midfielder who we all agreed was a good signing.

Robertson our most consistent player this season.

Williams our best keeper for a while.

McGivern was a signing everyone agreed would be a good bit of business of we had managed to keep him, which we did.

Nelson was a decent centre half that was limited but was "no nonsense"

Thomson is deemed the best player at the club by everyone here.

Taiwo has been the best player in the last month or so (not sure why he was dropped)

Heffernan is widely accepted as the best finisher at the club who has a decent SPL record.

Is Fenlons signings that bad or are they mismanaged and given poor tactics? My moneys on the latter.

I wasn't being argumentative mate, just trying to put my opinion on things.

Robertson was a terrific signing as we are now finding out - but he is injury prone. We need him back soon.

Liam Craig - I've never been convinced and this year he has been nothing short of chronic. Thommo I think is and always will be a good footballer. Heffernan - yep, good finisher but again seems to have lettuce groins, maybe like Clancy, just doesn't fancy games as much anymore. Taiwo is a player I've always rated and I think we have more energy when he plays.

But Pat failed, like Calderwood, by not buying in genuine pace - searing pace. And neither added real creativity in the middle of the park.

We are now blessed with midfielders who don't drive forward, play side to side, don't beat mean as a rule, and are really quite industrial and static.

We got rid of over 60 goals in letting Leigh, Eoin and Wotherspoon go. It's absolutely no surprise we are the lowest scorers after who we brought in. I wish I could dig out my old posts but I predicted early in the season we would maybe end up in this situation because of our signing policy this season.

I know Pat wanted other players, I also know they went elsewhere because we didn't offer enough. Petrie is the main target for my ire - but Pat comes a close second as I don't think he knew what a creative player was.

[Scouse Hibee]

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...regardless of what happens in the next four games.

I'd say to myself "This poisoned chalice has destroyed the value of everything I achieved at ICT. I need to get out while I've still got the shreds of a career left to resurrect."

No idea whether that would leave our shambles of a club better or worse off, frankly.

I'd say to myself for **** sake I've made a right erse of this job, pretty much the same erse I made of other jobs apart from the one time I got lucky.

[Beefster]

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We had a squad that was 5th in the league and had the best defence in the league outside Celtic. We did. Aye.

We had also scored the second least goals in the league. It's easier to keep the goals conceded down when you're parking 10 men behind the ball, not bothering trying to attack and just going for a draw in every game.

[Expecting Rain]

The present management are more than capable of taking us forward as a club and enhancing the prospects of our talented youngsters, the problem lies
with those individuals who cannot handle a bit of criticism and who are letting themselves down by not rising to the challenge and proving that they are capable of representing HIBS.

[Elephant Stone]

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We had also scored the second least goals in the league. It's easier to keep the goals conceded down when you're parking 10 men behind the ball, not bothering trying to attack and just going for a draw in every game.

When you've got two strikers playing together for the first time it's not surprising that they don't score loads right away. It looked as though Heffernan and Collins were forming a partnership though, think they scored 3 or 4 between them over 2 games towards the end of PF's time. If they had been allowed to keep working together then I'd be surprised if we'd have kept on scoring so few. When PF left we were solid at the back but still had work to do up top, now we've lost any strength at the back and any hope in hell of sorting it out up top.

I don't buy that he never bothered to attack, our strikers must have scored about 35 goals last season and our strikers this season never had the chance to get a run in the team to build consistency.

[Centre Hawf]

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I wasn't being argumentative mate, just trying to put my opinion on things.

Robertson was a terrific signing as we are now finding out - but he is injury prone. We need him back soon.

Liam Craig - I've never been convinced and this year he has been nothing short of chronic. Thommo I think is and always will be a good footballer. Heffernan - yep, good finisher but again seems to have lettuce groins, maybe like Clancy, just doesn't fancy games as much anymore. Taiwo is a player I've always rated and I think we have more energy when he plays.

But Pat failed, like Calderwood, by not buying in genuine pace - searing pace. And neither added real creativity in the middle of the park.

We are now blessed with midfielders who don't drive forward, play side to side, don't beat mean as a rule, and are really quite industrial and static.

We got rid of over 60 goals in letting Leigh, Eoin and Wotherspoon go. It's absolutely no surprise we are the lowest scorers after who we brought in. I wish I could dig out my old posts but I predicted early in the season we would maybe end up in this situation because of our signing policy this season.

I know Pat wanted other players, I also know they went elsewhere because we didn't offer enough. Petrie is the main target for my ire - but Pat comes a close second as I don't think he knew what a creative player was.

I know you weren't mate, wasn't meaning to come across like that either.

I think you're right about the injuries and more so the pace. He failed to ever get a pacey good wide man in. He lucked out on Harris and Matty Done was pish. Cairney slow as a week in the jail. Craig wasnt a winger and he even had a spell of using Handling out wide. So his flaw was wingers.

But what he failed in Wingers I think he made up for in centre mids. Claros was one of the best players ive seen at ER for a few years now, Robertson, Thomson, Craig (for me theres a player in there), Taiwo, and I actually think Deegan was decent pre jaw break then came back a fraction of the player.

Collins was apparently our 5/6th choice striker (heard this from a decent source, not naming) So I wonder what went wrong in enticing the other 5.

[matty_f]

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If you looked at his signings though:

Craig was a goalscoring midfielder who we all agreed was a good signing.

Robertson our most consistent player this season.

Williams our best keeper for a while.

McGivern was a signing everyone agreed would be a good bit of business of we had managed to keep him, which we did.

Nelson was a decent centre half that was limited but was "no nonsense"

Thomson is deemed the best player at the club by everyone here.

Taiwo has been the best player in the last month or so (not sure why he was dropped)

Heffernan is widely accepted as the best finisher at the club who has a decent SPL record.

Is Fenlons signings that bad or are they mismanaged and given poor tactics? My moneys on the latter.

It's more about what Fenlon didn't sign as opposed to who he did, IMHO.

He didn't fix the wide positions, we had Harris who was injured very early on, and Cairney, again injured early in the season. There was no pace in the side and that wasn't fixed. Without creativity in the wide positions, we needed a creator in the middle, which Fenlon didn't fix. We needed a right back, Fenlon didn't sort that position either.

We have some good players, but we have positions without a good player to fill them and that's one of the key reasons Fenlon struggled and Butcher is struggling.

[TornadoHibby]

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It's more about what Fenlon didn't sign as opposed to who he did, IMHO.

He didn't fix the wide positions, we had Harris who was injured very early on, and Cairney, again injured early in the season. There was no pace in the side and that wasn't fixed. Without creativity in the wide positions, we needed a creator in the middle, which Fenlon didn't fix. We needed a right back, Fenlon didn't sort that position either.

We have some good players, but we have positions without a good player to fill them and that's one of the key reasons Fenlon struggled and Butcher is struggling.

If these were critical positions needing new players in, why did TB not get them in during the January window??!

[Centre Hawf]

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It's more about what Fenlon didn't sign as opposed to who he did, IMHO.

He didn't fix the wide positions, we had Harris who was injured very early on, and Cairney, again injured early in the season. There was no pace in the side and that wasn't fixed. Without creativity in the wide positions, we needed a creator in the middle, which Fenlon didn't fix. We needed a right back, Fenlon didn't sort that position either.

We have some good players, but we have positions without a good player to fill them and that's one of the key reasons Fenlon struggled and Butcher is struggling.

Like someone else posted why hasn't Butcher sorted these problems? No right back? Or is Forster his plan for that in the long term?

Watmore looks an ok player but still a raw talent. I'd argue though Craig was a creative player to play in the centre but it didn't work out that way.

[matty_f]

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If these were critical positions needing new players in, why did TB not get them in during the January window??!

Presumably (given however many Hibs managers and countless managers from other teams make this point every January window) it's because either there weren't good enough players available, or we didn't have the budget for it.

[Centre Hawf]

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Presumably (given however many Hibs managers and countless managers from other teams make this point every January window) it's because either there weren't good enough players available, or we didn't have the budget for it.

Here was me thinking Aberdeen didn't sign well in January.

[matty_f]

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Here was me thinking Aberdeen didn't sign well in January.

We didn't have the budget for Rooney, see Butcher's comments at the time (we could only offer a loan). That's not Butcher's fault - he tried to sign him.

[Thecat23]

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We didn't have the budget for Rooney, see Butcher's comments at the time (we could only offer a loan). That's not Butcher's fault - he tried to sign him.

Uncle Rodders should have pushed the boat out. Picking up players cheaply results in one thing. Where we are now. Sometimes in life you have to the risks to reap the rewards.

And before anyone starts I'm not talking going daft like our crazy neighbours.