Hibs Next Chairman?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Anybody mentioned Pat Nevin yet, or have we moved on from all that?

[bigwheel]

I think the likelihood of Rod stepping down before he can turn his 10 percent holding into cash is unlikely ...

[Hibercelona]

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The emotional intelligence here is non existent.

And therein lies the problem.

It's just a numbers game to Petrie and the board. They don't go through the kind of motions that we do.

We could get hammered in our next home game. But as long as there are enough fans there to pay the bills, Rod can walk away with a wry smile on his face.

[Mikeystewart]

Leeann Dempster from Motherwell, seems to have good relationship with the media, finances and a good record of managerial appointments.

[--------]

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Chairmen can only make a club a success if they are backed by an owner with a burning passion to see the club succeed. Without that it doesn't matter who the chairman is. It might as well be me.

It's quite normal in football these days for a club to be owned by a businessman but not run by him - he appoints a chairman/CEO who runs the club on his behalf. It makes sense - the owner has a number of other business interests, all run by chairmen and boards responsible to the owner.

The problem at Easter Road seems to me to be that the present chairman/CEO has been here too long. He's achieved a great deal - the complete renewal of the club's stadium and training facilities while maintaining the club's financial stability. I'm not denying Rod the credit for this, but I do think it's time for him and Hibs to part company and move on. We need a genuinely new vision, and a chairman who can communicate that vision and get the fans onside and behind the team and manager.

The club's in a repetitive pattern of appointing a manager, financing him in clearing out the last manager's players and bringing in the first draft of his own, those players under-performing, the fans becoming resentful and hostile, the manager leaving, a new manager appointed, and so on and so on, apparently ad infinitum.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it seems that the chairman is content with this situation. The owner too.

Hibs are in a cycle of slow decline which in its own way seems to me to be as potentially lethal to the fortunes and continuing existence of the club in the Scottish Premiership as any of the machinations of cowboy owners like Green and Romanov. It's just taking longer.

This is NOT to suggest that either Sir Tom Farmer or Rod Petrie are in any way similar to the aforesaid cowboys - far from it. The one thing we can say about them both is that they've conducted Hibs' business with integrity and honesty throughout.

But the in my opinion club needs a change of leadership and direction NOW. Too long we've heard the message - buy your season tickets and finance next year's transfer business. This couples investment in the team to the fans' willingness to fork out increasingly large sums of money on trust in the willingness of the board and chairman (and owner) to provide a team to watch.

It's a bit like me going to Tesco and finding loads of empty shelves, and Tesco asking me to shell out up front before they put any goods on those shelves, because they can't be expected to invest in stock unless they're assured of a known income to budget for their investment. I'm not going to do that - I'm going to go to Morrisons, or ASDA, or Waitrose, or Sainsbury, or whoever isn't Tesco.

There's no leadership at ER, folks. When did we last hear someone say something like, hey, guys, get your STs quick, we're signing these guys and they're good players well worth paying to see - and actually signing players who are good and well-worth paying to see. For all the criticism he got, at least the much-maligned Pat Fenlon brought us Jorge Claros and Leigh Griffiths, both class acts. The last one before them was probably Sol Bamba.

I'm sorry to say it, but I no longer trust the "vision" of Sir Tom and Rod to lead Hibs forward. I honestly don't know what their "vision" is - if they have one at all, that is. And I will not pay money, hard-earned BTW, to finance the process of watching Hibs mimicking the ever-decreasing death-spiral of the late-lamented Oozlum Bird.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oozlum_bird

One final additional thought - if Terry and Mo leave within the usual time-scale, around this time next year if not before, we really will be right up Ordure Creek in a leaky canoe and no paddles.

[Stantons Angel]

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If it's going to make as much difference as replacing the manager I don't really care! Christ with a new chairman we'll be expecting Champions League.

Here lies the answer!

The expectations of the supporters always pushes on ahead of what can be achieved and us Hibs supporters are always way way up there above team chairman owner and club!

I think the question is really irrelevant in the circumstances that Farmer owns the club and any new chairman would need to be appointed by him. he is not going to give carte blanche to anyone that may bring the club to its knees as it was when he took over.

Im not saying that money doesnt have to be spent on the field of play, not at all. We have a sound financial base, own our own stadium, training ground and not too much a deficit in footballing terms on the accounts.

Like you all i ve sat for a good few seasons watching poor poor Hibs teams play and getting more and more frustrated each season as we fail to reach any potential1

The time has now come to sort out the playing staff and we all know that takes money, we have a large support out there that turn out in numbers each time we go to Hampden for cup finals etc If we are not playing attractive football they wont come and spend their hard earned money.

Farmer and Petrie need to realise they will have to take their chances in the transfer market for two or three tried and tested players of an acceptable standard. Im sure Butcher is not the type of man who will sit and take the crap Petrie gives him about purse strings etc. He is a winner (even though he is English and a Hun) he will i believe stand up to the owner and his chairman and look to them to support him in his efforts.

Too long have Hibs sat in the shadows waiting for time to turn its time to go out there and make it happen, stop being sheep and become lions fighting for the club and its supporters!

[Phil D. Rolls]

[QUOTE=Stantons Angel;3941396]


Farmer and Petrie need to realise they will have to take their chances in the transfer market for two or three tried and tested players of an acceptable standard. Im sure Butcher is not the type of man who will sit and take the crap Petrie gives him about purse strings etc. He is a winner (even though he is English and a Hun) he will i believe stand up to the owner and his chairman and look to them to support him in his efforts.

Too long have Hibs sat in the shadows waiting for time to turn its time to go out there and make it happen, stop being sheep and become lions fighting for the club and its supporters![/QUOTE]

Farmer doesn't need to realise anything. The deal was: I save your club (which you are begging me to do); you never get in debt again; I have nothing to do with running the club, I'm not really interested in football.

The fans need to realise that, unless they find someone better, all their bleating about Farmer is just the grumblings of the terminally inadequate. You want power, then take it, he's not standing in anyone's way.

As for the bit in bold, it's a wee bit too Yammish for me. (Not saying you're a Yam by the way, I think that would be going too far).

Sorry to go off on one, but having gone through Hibs almost shutting once, I'm very cautious about fan led initiatives.

[greenpaper55]

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It's quite normal in football these days for a club to be owned by a businessman but not run by him - he appoints a chairman/CEO who runs the club on his behalf. It makes sense - the owner has a number of other business interests, all run by chairmen and boards responsible to the owner.

The problem at Easter Road seems to me to be that the present chairman/CEO has been here too long. He's achieved a great deal - the complete renewal of the club's stadium and training facilities while maintaining the club's financial stability. I'm not denying Rod the credit for this, but I do think it's time for him and Hibs to part company and move on. We need a genuinely new vision, and a chairman who can communicate that vision and get the fans onside and behind the team and manager.

The club's in a repetitive pattern of appointing a manager, financing him in clearing out the last manager's players and bringing in the first draft of his own, those players under-performing, the fans becoming resentful and hostile, the manager leaving, a new manager appointed, and so on and so on, apparently ad infinitum.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it seems that the chairman is content with this situation. The owner too.

Hibs are in a cycle of slow decline which in its own way seems to me to be as potentially lethal to the fortunes and continuing existence of the club in the Scottish Premiership as any of the machinations of cowboy owners like Green and Romanov. It's just taking longer.

This is NOT to suggest that either Sir Tom Farmer or Rod Petrie are in any way similar to the aforesaid cowboys - far from it. The one thing we can say about them both is that they've conducted Hibs' business with integrity and honesty throughout.

But the in my opinion club needs a change of leadership and direction NOW. Too long we've heard the message - buy your season tickets and finance next year's transfer business. This couples investment in the team to the fans' willingness to fork out increasingly large sums of money on trust in the willingness of the board and chairman (and owner) to provide a team to watch.

It's a bit like me going to Tesco and finding loads of empty shelves, and Tesco asking me to shell out up front before they put any goods on those shelves, because they can't be expected to invest in stock unless they're assured of a known income to budget for their investment. I'm not going to do that - I'm going to go to Morrisons, or ASDA, or Waitrose, or Sainsbury, or whoever isn't Tesco.

There's no leadership at ER, folks. When did we last hear someone say something like, hey, guys, get your STs quick, we're signing these guys and they're good players well worth paying to see - and actually signing players who are good and well-worth paying to see. For all the criticism he got, at least the much-maligned Pat Fenlon brought us Jorge Claros and Leigh Griffiths, both class acts. The last one before them was probably Sol Bamba.

I'm sorry to say it, but I no longer trust the "vision" of Sir Tom and Rod to lead Hibs forward. I honestly don't know what their "vision" is - if they have one at all, that is. And I will not pay money, hard-earned BTW, to finance the process of watching Hibs mimicking the ever-decreasing death-spiral of the late-lamented Oozlum Bird.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oozlum_bird

One final additional thought - if Terry and Mo leave within the usual time-scale, around this time next year if not before, we really will be right up Ordure Creek in a leaky canoe and no paddles.

Agree with everything you have said but the big question is how do we change things for the better ?, it would seem the twosome are there for ever and only something cataclysmic like ill health or relegation even is going to make them change their tack. The way we are going is like death by a thousand cuts but you can bet your boots we will not make a loss even then, if ST's are way down we will just cut the cloth again accordingly and what's on display can only be imagined !. Every year some more of the core support is lost, maybe not in huge numbers but it is being chipped away nevertheless and i think we could all name supporters who have turned their backs on the team in the last few years.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Agree with everything you have said but the big question is how do we change things for the better ?, it would seem the twosome are there for ever and only something cataclysmic like ill health or relegation even is going to make them change their tack. The way we are going is like death by a thousand cuts but you can bet your boots we will not make a loss even then, if ST's are way down we will just cut the cloth again accordingly and what's on display can only be imagined !. Every year some more of the core support is lost, maybe not in huge numbers but it is being chipped away nevertheless and i think we could all name supporters who have turned their backs on the team in the last few years.

It would be great if somebody could do graphs that show the fluctuation in the core support season by season. That way we could discuss whether there really is a problem there, or whether it is just a perception.

Otherwise, how can we tell whether a wee bit more gets chipped away every season?

[--------]

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Farmer doesn't need to realise anything. The deal was: I save your club (which you are begging me to do); you never get in debt again; I have nothing to do with running the club, I'm not really interested in football.

The fans need to realise that, unless they find someone better, all their bleating about Farmer is just the grumblings of the terminally inadequate. You want power, then take it, he's not standing in anyone's way.

Like I said - it's now perfectly normal for the owner of a football club to appoint a chairman/CEO to run the club, leaving the owner free to take care of his other interests, or even just to enjoy retirement or semi-retirement with his/her family and friends. Or head off on his yacht to the Caribbean to live the sweet life.

Rod Petrie has done a fine job of renewing the entire material infrastructure of Hibernian FC. New training-ground, new stadium one of the best in Scotland if not Britain, and financial stability and financial probity preserved throughout.

I have no arguments about that. But I ma becoming increasingly frustrated and angry at the way Hibs have repeatedly failed to use the opportunities these improvements represent to advance the cause of the team on the pitch, which (unless I've been completely misled for the past 50 years) is the whole point of a football club.

The Team On The Pitch.

There are too many recurring themes here.

Managers who come in, show promise, then fail to deliver on that promise. Or come in and just fail.

Players who arrive, show promise, then fail to deliver on that promise. Or come in and just fail.

Money spent in transfer deals for no improvement discernible whatsoever.

And I have to say it - a great big gaping space at the top of the club, where the leadership and vision and purpose should be.

All my opinion, but I'm increasingly not alone in saying these things.

I've been a big critic of our owner and his chairman, and truthfully, I don't want to be. I know well what STF did for the club and supporters back in the day, and what he continues to provide. Financial backing, stability, and probity.

What I am concerned about is the repeating spiral of promise and failure we've been in for about 7 years now, which is in its own way lethally dangerous to the life of the club as we know it and love it.

We need to break that spiral, because a spiral leads nowhere - or worse than nowhere - see "Oozlum Bird" above.

IMO the fans need to become less demanding, more supportive, maybe even more forgiving. It can't be easy playing at ER in front of some of the Foghorn Leghorns who adorn the stands there.

But right now the only feedback I get for being a Hibee is heartache and frustration, and I've got enough of that already. I'm not paying £25 a time for another two-hour dose, plus highlights on TV and the argy-bargy on here.

[easty]

I want the next chairman to not back the managers we have financially. Petrie has been backing the managers and that's clearly not working. We should give the managers no money to spend. That's got to be the way forward. The next chairman should pick the players the manager is allowed to sign.

I also want the next chairman to interfere with team matters. Petrie has been too lazy to interfere. If we arent getting results on the pitch then why isnt the chairman along at East Mains, in a trackie, encouraging the players to be better. I want a chairman who doesn't let the manager get on with his job.

I also want the next chairman to not care about the finances, at all. Petrie has cared too much on that front, but what's the point. Good training facilities, pfft...get them training at Leith Links, it's too easy for them at East Mains. We should definitely spend loads of money, on 3 or 4 really good players, that we could quite clearly bring in from someone. Not STF obviously, cos he's a rubbish owner (I hate it when rich people don't want to waste their money, I'm poor and I waste mines, they should obv do the same) so we should get a new one of those too. The next chairman should easily be able to find some savvy businessman looking to invest some of their hard-earned money in a Scottish football team. You don't get anywhere in the business world without knowing you'll get a healthy return on your investment in a Scottish football team.

And I want the next chairman to not have a moustache. Petrie has a moustache and he's just rubbish.

[Peevemor]

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I want the next chairman to not back the managers we have financially. Petrie has been backing the managers and that's clearly not working. We should give the managers no money to spend. That's got to be the way forward. The next chairman should pick the players the manager is allowed to sign.

I also want the next chairman to interfere with team matters. Petrie has been too lazy to interfere. If we arent getting results on the pitch then why isnt the chairman along at East Mains, in a trackie, encouraging the players to be better. I want a chairman who doesn't let the manager get on with his job.

I also want the next chairman to not care about the finances, at all. Petrie has cared too much on that front, but what's the point. Good training facilities, pfft...get them training at Leith Links, it's too easy for them at East Mains. We should definitely spend loads of money, on 3 or 4 really good players, that we could quite clearly bring in from someone. Not STF obviously, cos he's a rubbish owner (I hate it when rich people don't want to waste their money, I'm poor and I waste mines, they should obv do the same) so we should get a new one of those too. The next chairman should easily be able to find some savvy businessman looking to invest some of their hard-earned money in a Scottish football team. You don't get anywhere in the business world without knowing you'll get a healthy return on your investment in a Scottish football team.

And I want the next chairman to not have a moustache. Petrie has a moustache and he's just rubbish.

All makes ense to me.

[easty]

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There are too many recurring themes here.

Managers who come in, show promise, then fail to deliver on that promise. Or come in and just fail.

Players who arrive, show promise, then fail to deliver on that promise. Or come in and just fail.

Money spent in transfer deals for no improvement discernible whatsoever.

And I have to say it - a great big gaping space at the top of the club, where the leadership and vision and purpose should be.

I wonder Doddie, with a different chairman, how would any of the above be different?

[--------]

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I wonder Doddie, with a different chairman, how would any of the above be different?

So we're what, caught in a time-warp where we're doomed to go on and on repeating and repeating the same mistakes?

If RP can lead change at Hibs, then fine. If he can break us out of the pattern of 18-month managers and constant changes of personnel on the pitch, fine. I'm not convinced he can.

But if I were to be convinced, he would have my complete support. It's not about personalities; it's about the principles of good club management and directorship.

Collins. Paatelainen. Hughes. Calderwood. Fenlon. Now Butcher. Who'll be next, and when?

[easty]

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So we're what, caught in a time-warp where we're doomed to go on and on repeating and repeating the same mistakes?

If RP can lead change at Hibs, then fine. If he can break us out of the pattern of 18-month managers and constant changes of personnel on the pitch, fine. I'm not convinced he can.

But if I were to be convinced, he would have my complete support. It's not about personalities; it's about the principles of good club management and directorship.

Collins. Paatelainen. Hughes. Calderwood. Fenlon. Now Butcher. Who'll be next, and when?

It's not his job to sign the players and pick the team though. That's the job of the managers, and they've failed at it miserably. If Petrie had consistently picked awful managers then gave them no money to do the job, then I could understand they fervour to get rid of him.

As far as I'm concerned though, he's backed the managers, and the only appointment I wasn't sure about was Fenlon.

[stantonhibby]

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And therein lies the problem.

It's just a numbers game to Petrie and the board. They don't go through the kind of motions that we do.

We could get hammered in our next home game. But as long as there are enough fans there to pay the bills, Rod can walk away with a wry smile on his face.

Even by your own high standards you really have cranked up the drivelometer this weekend.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Even by your own high standards you really have cranked up the drivelometer this weekend.

[Stantons Angel]

[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;3941410]

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Farmer and Petrie need to realise they will have to take their chances in the transfer market for two or three tried and tested players of an acceptable standard. Im sure Butcher is not the type of man who will sit and take the crap Petrie gives him about purse strings etc. He is a winner (even though he is English and a Hun) he will i believe stand up to the owner and his chairman and look to them to support him in his efforts.

Too long have Hibs sat in the shadows waiting for time to turn its time to go out there and make it happen, stop being sheep and become lions fighting for the club and its supporters![/QUOTE]

Farmer doesn't need to realise anything. The deal was: I save your club (which you are begging me to do); you never get in debt again; I have nothing to do with running the club, I'm not really interested in football.

The fans need to realise that, unless they find someone better, all their bleating about Farmer is just the grumblings of the terminally inadequate. You want power, then take it, he's not standing in anyone's way.

As for the bit in bold, it's a wee bit too Yammish for me. (Not saying you're a Yam by the way, I think that would be going too far).

Sorry to go off on one, but having gone through Hibs almost shutting once, I'm very cautious about fan led initiatives.

Yes i think that would be far to much an insult on the 50+ years ive supported Hibs if you dared call me a "yam".

Im not advocating fan led initiatives and i agree with the things you refer back to Farmer.

All i want is some one at the Chairman level who knows about football, Petrie tried this when he made Lindsay chairman responsible for the footballing side of the business.

That didnt work at all well and he took back the position in another shake up of the board.

All i want is for Hibs to remain solvent in this high charged atmosphere of clubs going out of business. BUT i also want a team who know what it means to pull that jersey over their heads. Who know the hopes of the support paying every week to see them doing their jobs!

We are on a never ending circle of disappointment at the moment and have been for too long.

Just what the answer is i just dont know but i do know that even i am getting so fed up with it!!!

[--------]

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It's not his job to sign the players and pick the team though. That's the job of the managers, and they've failed at it miserably. If Petrie had consistently picked awful managers then gave them no money to do the job, then I could understand they fervour to get rid of him.

As far as I'm concerned though, he's backed the managers, and the only appointment I wasn't sure about was Fenlon.

Last time I looked, football was a result-driven industry.

Petrie may well have done everything right according to the manual of business practice. The results have been dire, though, and to apply the Lady Bracknell Principle - "To appoint one unsuccessful manager might be considered misfortune; to appoint five one after the other (with the jury out on #6) looks very much like carelessness (or incompetence?) ...

[RIP]

I'm not sure we need to be discussing the chairman role.

What we actually need is a full-time CEO or MD. Rod started succession planning in 2008 when he appointed Scott Lindsay then Fife Hyland. They both handed in their notice which when you look at their decision in hindsight adds to our plight.

5 managers and 2 CEO's lost in 7 years. Add to that several dozen players.

If a company has a high staff turnover over such a short space of time they end up with a poor reputation.

In the same time frame Motherwell recruited Leeann Dempster. If anyone needs a single example of the value add of a good CEO it's there for all to see.

We cut our cloth too tight and have paid the price.

[J-C]

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It's not his job to sign the players and pick the team though. That's the job of the managers, and they've failed at it miserably. If Petrie had consistently picked awful managers then gave them no money to do the job, then I could understand they fervour to get rid of him.

As far as I'm concerned though, he's backed the managers, and the only appointment I wasn't sure about was Fenlon.

The problem you have is a chairman who's happy to sit mid table and balance the books, there is no drive and determination from above, which then shows in how we play. Aberdeen have decided to invest in the team with a good proven manager, their results speak for themselves, the chairman was fed up with mediocrity, said so in an interview I heard.

[jakeshibs]

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The problem you have is a chairman who's happy to sit mid table and balance the books, there is no drive and determination from above, which then shows in how we play. Aberdeen have decided to invest in the team with a good proven manager, their results speak for themselves, the chairman was fed up with mediocrity, said so in an interview I heard.

I am assuming that you have heard RP say he is happy with mid table and poor performances on the pitch. I have never ever heard him say that and as some one else stated if you turn this question on its head and look at what is right with our club, its a lot down to RP!

[--------]

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I'm not sure we need to be discussing the chairman role.

What we actually need is a full-time CEO or MD. Rod started succession planning in 2008 when he appointed Scott Lindsay then Fife Hyland. They both handed in their notice which when you look at their decision in hindsight adds to our plight.

5 managers and 2 CEO's lost in 7 years. Add to that several dozen players.

If a company has a high staff turnover over such a short space of time they end up with a poor reputation.

In the same time frame Motherwell recruited Leeann Dempster. If anyone needs a single example of the value add of a good CEO it's there for all to see.

We cut our cloth too tight and have paid the price.

Now an appointment like that one ....

LD's sorted out a whole lot of things at Fir Park, as well as lifting a lot of peripheral responsibilities from McCall's shoulders, freeing him to concentrate on the team. They have a very good positive working relationship too, I've been told.

[Phil D. Rolls]

[QUOTE=Stantons Angel;3941533]

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Yes i think that would be far to much an insult on the 50+ years ive supported Hibs if you dared call me a "yam".

Im not advocating fan led initiatives and i agree with the things you refer back to Farmer.

All i want is some one at the Chairman level who knows about football, Petrie tried this when he made Lindsay chairman responsible for the footballing side of the business.

That didnt work at all well and he took back the position in another shake up of the board.

All i want is for Hibs to remain solvent in this high charged atmosphere of clubs going out of business. BUT i also want a team who know what it means to pull that jersey over their heads. Who know the hopes of the support paying every week to see them doing their jobs!

We are on a never ending circle of disappointment at the moment and have been for too long.

Just what the answer is i just dont know but i do know that even i am getting so fed up with it!!!

Honestly, I wasn't calling you a Yam. I agree with everything you say, and wish we weren't in such a rut.

[Kaiser1962]

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Farmer doesn't need to realise anything. The deal was: I save your club (which you are begging me to do); you never get in debt again; I have nothing to do with running the club, I'm not really interested in football.

The fans need to realise that, unless they find someone better, all their bleating about Farmer is just the grumblings of the terminally inadequate. You want power, then take it, he's not standing in anyone's way.

As for the bit in bold, it's a wee bit too Yammish for me. (Not saying you're a Yam by the way, I think that would be going too far).

Sorry to go off on one, but having gone through Hibs almost shutting once, I'm very cautious about fan led initiatives.

It is also worth remembering that in 2003 Hibs and Hearts were in very similar financial positions.

[Kaiser1962]

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The problem you have is a chairman who's happy to sit mid table and balance the books, there is no drive and determination from above, which then shows in how we play. Aberdeen have decided to invest in the team with a good proven manager, their results speak for themselves, the chairman was fed up with mediocrity, said so in an interview I heard.

Aberdeen have had losses of £28.5m between their last LC win in 1996 and this one. It may be that Milne is picking that up and if he is good luck to him but the only thing that has changed at Aberdeen is the personnel. There has been no calculated master plan.

[Jonnyboy]

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I'm not sure we need to be discussing the chairman role.

What we actually need is a full-time CEO or MD. Rod started succession planning in 2008 when he appointed Scott Lindsay then Fife Hyland. They both handed in their notice which when you look at their decision in hindsight adds to our plight.

5 managers and 2 CEO's lost in 7 years. Add to that several dozen players.

If a company has a high staff turnover over such a short space of time they end up with a poor reputation.

In the same time frame Motherwell recruited Leeann Dempster. If anyone needs a single example of the value add of a good CEO it's there for all to see.

We cut our cloth too tight and have paid the price.

You have to wonder why? Is it perhaps because their vision for Hibs didn't meet Rod's approval?

[smurf]

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You have to wonder why? Is it perhaps because their vision for Hibs didn't meet Rod's approval?

Am I correct in saying Rod only works part time now for the club? It begs the question just what were Scott and Fyfe doing?

[Jonnyboy]

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Am I correct in saying Rod only works part time now for the club? It begs the question just what were Scott and Fyfe doing?

Not sure K. Others may know?

[sleeping giant]

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Am I correct in saying Rod only works part time now for the club? It begs the question just what were Scott and Fyfe doing?

***** Smurfy Where the **** have you been ? In the jail ?