Butcher Today

[HappyAsHellas]

Most of the players are good enough for survival, but not much else. We need a few quality players to come in and lift the entire squad. I firmly believe this will happen in the summer window. We're only a player or two away from being 2nd in the league. That is reality, and what I'm looking forward to.

[Northernhibee]

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I am assuming you think that wages are an issue then (forgive me if my assumptions are off)
Thats the only thing the board could change.

We dont have the season ticket holders to indulge our fantasies .

I am 100% behind RP and the way he runs our club.

I was there at the HOH campaign and fully bought in Douglas Crombs visions that we would never be in that position again.
I witnessed JB kiising the hallowed turf and remember thinking , no matter what , i would always follow Hibs through thick and thin.
never in my mind did i think we would have a state of the art Stadium and trianing facilities.
I also think we have the perfect management team. We just need to give them the opportunity to get there message acrros.

Dont get me wrong . TB is not untouchable . Personally , i do not think he should have publicly stated that the players were *****

I don't think it's wages either.

I'm not denying that the board have done good for the club in the past. I'm not sure if they're right for the clubs future now we're in a good position and need to focus on what's on the pitch.

[sleeping giant]

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Most of the players are good enough for survival, but not much else. We need a few quality players to come in and lift the entire squad. I firmly believe this will happen in the summer window. We're only a player or two away from being 2nd in the league. That is reality, and what I'm looking forward to.

TBH ,
i quite agree with you. I really do think we will see a good few players arriving in the summer.

[sleeping giant]

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I don't think it's wages either.

I'm not denying that the board have done good for the club in the past. I'm not sure if they're right for the clubs future now we're in a good position and need to focus on what's on the pitch.

Forgive me if im being thick but are you saying you believe its just down to the board financing higher wages ?

[Northernhibee]

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Forgive me if im being thick but are you saying you believe its just down to the board financing higher wages ?

No, I don't know what it is. But I don't think the problem with our club is the manager or the players.

We should be focusing our attention on getting an answer to the million dollar question though.

[sleeping giant]

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No, I don't know what it is. But I don't think the problem with our club is the manager or the players.

We should be focusing our attention on getting an answer to the million dollar question though.

Right So what is your guess then...
Stadium ...Check
Training Ground...Check
International multi capped , successful Manager ....Check
International multi capped Assistant manager ....Check
Decent players playing well for their old clubs ....check

The only thing left is finance.

[HappyAsHellas]

There seems to be quite a lot of people starting to question the board just now, and I wonder why? I was one of RP's biggest critics a few years ago but I look across the road now and think thank christ the board had a bigger collective brain than me. Financially we are on a pretty sound footing, we have facilities and a stadium that is the envy of every club outside the OF, and I wonder now, I ask myself. Would the people who managed to bring all this for us, not realise that we might need a team to enhance the surroundings? - or were they simply putting the foundations down first? Give it a bit of time and I'm sure we will all reap the rewards. Starting next season.

[OsloHibs]

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The fact we haven't won in our last 13 games surely must be a clue am not saying he won't turn out to be a good manager but he came in praising and building up confidence in handling Collins and drilled back four into keeping clean sheets with Craig scoring and us scoring from corners for fun He has now turned on these same players and it's clear the impact this has had .he could at least have waited a bit longer but he run out of Patience and players aren't playing for him and he threatens to drop them and doesn't .I would rather he did as these players are no longer playing for him or club in a way that is Professionally acceptable to us Fans

Wonderful post.

[truehibernian]

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There seems to be quite a lot of people starting to question the board just now, and I wonder why? I was one of RP's biggest critics a few years ago but I look across the road now and think thank christ the board had a bigger collective brain than me. Financially we are on a pretty sound footing, we have facilities and a stadium that is the envy of every club outside the OF, and I wonder now, I ask myself. Would the people who managed to bring all this for us, not realise that we might need a team to enhance the surroundings? - or were they simply putting the foundations down first? Give it a bit of time and I'm sure we will all reap the rewards. Starting next season.

We signed Zoubir, Vine, Collins, Heffernan......could have had Lyle Taylor and Adam Rooney with Handling, Cummings and Caldwell as back up.

We signed Tudur Jones and Liam Craig......could have had Willo Flood.

Signed Nelson, let McManus and McCourt train for a week and then FO to other clubs.

Yep, I blame the Board. No ambition.

[Hermit Crab]

Everyone that doesn't pull their weight in the squad out. New players in.

[sleeping giant]

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Everyone that doesn't pull their weight in the squad out. New players in.

You just in from the peeve ?

[GreenOnions]

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We signed Zoubir, Vine, Collins, Heffernan......could have had Lyle Taylor and Adam Rooney with Handling, Cummings and Caldwell as back up.

We signed Tudur Jones and Liam Craig......could have had Willo Flood.

Signed Nelson, let McManus and McCourt train for a week and then FO to other clubs.

Yep, I blame the Board. No ambition.

Although I don't believe we ever had a chance of signing McCourt this has always been the frustrating thing with Hibs. Apart from a short spell when McLeish was at ER (eg with John O'Neil) we NEVER succeed in bringing players to ER when they are also sought by Aberdeen or Hearts.

Ending up with the likes of Michael Nelson, Fraser Mullen and Rowan Vine in our first starting eleven of the season - after about five minutes of the match I just couldn't believe how we'd signed players like that. Also - I don't think Callum Booth was ever as bad as Ryan McGivern or the "new Roberto Carlos" - in fact despite some errors defensively he showed a lot of promise and yet he was banished from the first team and then from the club before you could even blink.

I think we need to give some of our players a break though - they will be much better when they have better players around them.

I think Forster (as a centre back), Hanlon, Thomson, Robertson, Stanton, Craig and Harris are definitely players we should be keeping if we can and I woudn't be unhappy if they were all in a first team. I think Lewis Stevenson is also a good player to have around the squad and I hear positive things about some of our other youngsters.

As far as I'm concerned though that means that Nelson, McGivern, McPake, Taiwo, Cairney, Tudur-Jones, Heffernan, Caldwell, Handling and Collins should go if they are out of contract or if we can move them on.

[rcarter1]

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We signed Zoubir, Vine, Collins, Heffernan......could have had Lyle Taylor and Adam Rooney with Handling, Cummings and Caldwell as back up.

We signed Tudur Jones and Liam Craig......could have had Willo Flood.

Signed Nelson, let McManus and McCourt train for a week and then FO to other clubs.

Yep, I blame the Board. No ambition.

The McManus situation was interesting. Politely he decided to choose a smaller club (and wage?) for some reason. How many other players have looked at Hibs and chosen a rival of equal or lesser size?

I would really like (but don't expect) to hear a range of honest views from current and ex players/staff. Particularly if they can compare with other clubs in Scotland. I never hear the honest opinions of people on the inside. Ive stopped watching the Hibs interactive interviews because they often come across a bit cagey or defensive. Some of the interviews allude to divisions within the squad. This is perhaps not surprising as there has been little continuity in personel. Our players sound like defensive individuals trying not to say the wrong things to the fans, but almost no belief comes through. Its been like this for years.

I just hope that Butcher can punt enough of our current squad to enable a total rehaul of the mood/atmosphere/team spirit.

[blackpoolhibs]

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I've already given you my answer. But you keep choosing to ignore it. If I had any hard evidence as to what the problem actually is, I would present it.

So basically you dont have a ****in clue?

I haven't said anything about a lack of finanical backing concerning our recent managers. I don't think finances are a problem at all.

But you dont give any other reason except meddling from above, but cant state any facts to back it up?

I "suspect" that their may be an issue regarding attitudes further up in the club and that it's filtering down to staff and players effecting performance throughout the club, regardless of replacements. But I have no hard evidence to back this up, it just seems logical to suspect this, considering the board are the lowest common denominator in all of this.

Again you say you suspect there may be an issue further up, but cant tell us just what it is. Well done, i suspect someone is working you from behind, but i cant tell who it is but thats the lowest common denominator in my book?

What if Butcher brings in his own players and nothing changes? Will it still be down to an endless stream of rubbish managers and players? Or will you ever begin to suspect that there may be another issue at hand?

Well if butcher ****s it up, you will have another few weeks of making up some bull**** to make your opinion sound feasible.

Throw enough **** and some of it will stick, that is your way of trying to make a point.

[Bobby's Cinema]

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Most of the players are good enough for survival, but not much else. We need a few quality players to come in and lift the entire squad. I firmly believe this will happen in the summer window. We're only a player or two away from being 2nd in the league. That is reality, and what I'm looking forward to.

I'm afraid the gap between us and an Aberdeen/DundeeUtd/Motherwell is a lot LOT bigger than you think, despite the possibility of losing some of their better players in the summer.

[Ronniekirk]

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I'm afraid the gap between us and an Aberdeen/DundeeUtd/Motherwell is a lot LOT bigger than you think, despite the possibility of losing some of their better players in the summer.

But this is the nub of the issue and the chicken and egg remove Aberdeen from equation as there board has been just as bad at picking managers than ours .But the other two have managed to with the odd exception ( like Jim Gannon at Motherwell ) choose the right manager ,have a youth policy and scouting system and coaches that brings through regularly first team players that cement there place in first team They know who they are losing and bring in like for like Higdon goes bring in Sutton .Daley goes bring in The big guy that scored the goal against Hearts .well loose fast winger with pace who chips in with goals bring in Ainsworth . The manager and back room are same but having key people that know their job provides the continuity and these players come in and know where they are playing and in what system and they maintain top six .
We have chopped and changed ,had to bring in assistant managers to try and shore up the manager .Reintroduced. Scouting system that had been allowed to lapse .
If we believe the current Management team is the right one then we have to give them the three years of contract but at some point have an eye on who would succeed them eg Jackie McNamara if he continues to do well at United .If we need to pay to get the right people in we need to do that .
But we can't underestimate the mess that had has been made of our club over the past seven years and we have a Reputation to rebuild .Aberdeen are just now embarking on that ,and you can see see how it's galvanising them and their supporters ,so Rooney was always going to pick them over us even if we did offer permanent contract IMO .However the fact we didn't offer a Permanent deal was a mistake as you can see what he would bring to us .My point is that the Board Panic at times and didn't get Leigh when they could of as it would have been an investment even if we had to shell out £ 500,000 it was obvious we would recoup that Pissing about upping bids and losing out on Lyle Taylor if he was managers no 1 choice was another example However they then go and back the Manager at end of a Transfer window in a panic and we end up with Collins who you now couldn't give away .The board see that and then don't want to part with more cash given our tight financial structure.
So we need to look at what these teams have done right as the blue print is there for us to see but do we have right Board Members to bring this about .Its not stadiums and training facilities as nice as they are to have .Its the right people with the right skill sets ,be it manager coaches scouts psychologist physio etc .If we get those Foundations right we can build a team and then tinker with it each transfer window .But when we don't we see these wholesale squad clearances that can't be engineered without making players unhappy ,and then being left with some of them in squad
So summer is part one of this Transformational change that needs to take place at our club and fans who go to meetings with board need to articulate the vision and passion we have for the club to find a way the Board can support this Petrie has admitted failings but what are Board doing to learn lessons and ensure we don't keep making these same mistakes .

[Tyler Durden]

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could have turned it from a betting pencil into a mega-dobber to borrow from the Arctic Monkeys.

The actual lyric is "Mecca dauber" as in a bingo magic marker. Not a mega dobber! Took me a while to work that out too.

[Hermit Crab]

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You just in from the peeve ?

No. Just in after working a ten hour back shift.

[emerald green]

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Here's my problem with the "the players aren't good enough" argument, I'll take a standardish starting XI from this season:

Ben Williams - Ex Man Utd youth, won player of the year awards before, definately good enough

Jordan Forster - Inconsistency to be expected being young but has played at RB and CB before so should be good enough
Michael Nelson - A decent leader and has played well at SPL level before.
Paul Hanlon - Former Scotland U21s captain and arguably our best player
Ryan McGivern - Performed well at Championship level, ex Man City youth

Paul Cairney - Took a step up a couple of seasons back but has chipped in with assists
Scott Robertson - Experienced SPL central midfielder and has played at Championship level
Kevin Thomson - Played in European competition, Scotland international, championship level
Alex Harris - Pacey and showed last year he's capable of very good things

James Collins - Goal machine down south, scored four in a game despite coming on as a sub with twenty-five minutes to go
Paul Heffernan - Experienced, proven SPL player

Even some subs - Rowan Vine - experienced, proven SPL player who has racked up a seven figure amount in transfer figures in the past, Tom Taiwo who is good and tidy, Alan Maybury - good, experienced SPL defender etc. etc. etc.

I don't buy into this idea that the team isn't good enough and I don't buy into the idea that the manager isn't good enough at all.

So, if as you claim, these players ARE good enough, why do they perform so badly week after week? It's not just this group of players either. It's been like this for years under several different managers/coaches. It just backs up the theory that there are serious deep-seated problems at our club.

[blackpoolhibs]

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So, if as you claim, these players ARE good enough, why do they perform so badly week after week? It's not just this group of players either. It's been like this for years under several different managers/coaches. It just backs up the theory that there are serious deep-seated problems at our club.

What are these deep seated problems, nobody seems to be able to answer this question other than throw in the odd gem like meddling from above.

Then when you ask who and what meddling is being done, you never get an answer to that either?

Was there meddling ar aberdeen while they were as poor as us, although it must be a good type of meddling they are getting at the moment, or is it just the introduction of a decent manager who's identified some decent players and moulded them into a decent team?

[rcarter1]

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What are these deep seated problems, nobody seems to be able to answer this question other than throw in the odd gem like meddling from above.

Then when you ask who and what meddling is being done, you never get an answer to that either?

Was there meddling ar aberdeen while they were as poor as us, although it must be a good type of meddling they are getting at the moment, or is it just the introduction of a decent manager who's identified some decent players and moulded them into a decent team?

I would like to get some players/explayers from the last 7 years, and under the influence of sodium pentobarbital, ask them what has been going on. John Rankin always seems keen to put the boot into us, so he would be my first choice. I think the deep seated problem is that the club has been on the back foot for 5 or 6 years, and the fans, players, management and everyone else have developed a collective anxiety.

One good whole hearted clean out is my hope for a revival.

[gegs70]

We need to get back to the team that beat hearts in January....however confidence is low and getting lower every time they lose!

Maybe we need to do something different, a 5-3-2, 5-4-1aim for the draw but hope to steal the game?

[emerald green]

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What are these deep seated problems, nobody seems to be able to answer this question other than throw in the odd gem like meddling from above.

Then when you ask who and what meddling is being done, you never get an answer to that either?

Was there meddling ar aberdeen while they were as poor as us, although it must be a good type of meddling they are getting at the moment, or is it just the introduction of a decent manager who's identified some decent players and moulded them into a decent team?

I agree with you, nobody is able to answer this question. Certainly not on these forums anyway. I have said elsewhere that I don't have the answers. I don't even claim that any "meddling" is going on, as I simply don't know. Fans, who have the best interests of the club at heart, can only offer their views and opinions as to what the cause of the malaise at HFC actually is. Presumably you will agree that all is not well at HFC? You ask "what are these deep seated problems"? For what it's worth, I'll put in my tuppence worth here again. There has been a succession of poor managerial appointments over several years, especially Calderwood & Fenlon. (The jury is still out on TB & I wish him all the luck in the world turning things around. He will need it IMO). Many of the signings made over recent years and to date have simply not been good enough, allied to numerous loan signings who time & again prove to be well below the level required to compete successfully at this level. Is this because the budget is set at such a level, by the board, that's all HFC can afford or are willing to pay? There has been no stability at the club for years now. IMO there also seems to be a lack of drive, ambition, and leadership at the club. Both on and off the pitch. I'll again exclude TB from this last bit. A losing culture now exists at the club. Our record at home over recent seasons, for a club of our stature, has been a disgrace. Maybe fans groups could sit down and speak to STF & the board about all this, but I presume that's been done before? I'm not so arrogant that I claim to know it all and have all the answers to the problems at the club. These are just my opinions. I just want my club, whom I have supported all my life, to be better than what it is just now, and for once to realise its true potential, as I'm sure every other supporter does too.

[wills]

I feel that we don't have any leaders on the park, too many wishing to pass the buck. Get rid of some of the journey men, use there wages to invest in 2/3 quality players through the middle of the park who will guide and develope the younger players around. We've never had a true leader since Sauze

[sean]

When the butcher appointment came about I was very worried. He had good success with an Inverness club who have never ever achieved anything, was average at Motherwell and dire at Brentford etc.

What ever you think of butcher good or bad he has made some god awful decisions:

Told Taiwo and Thomson they weren't his kind of players and don't expect to play.

Gets rid of Scott Thomson the goalie coach, who to my knowledge is down in England 3 days a week leaving Ben Williams to take goal keeping practice.

Undermind hibs under 20s coach James mcdonaugh on several occasions.

Made Liam Craig (proven SPL box to box goal scorer) captain then leave him on the bench most weeks.

Now people can argue all they want with these points but it's my opinion, guys like butcher work well at small clubs, picking up lower league players and making them hard to beat, that hibs squad should perform a lot better and it's upto the management to get the best out the players.

All this talk about the players not giving a **** etc? Why would they ? Some have been told they won't be here next season and are just picking up a pay cheque toll the end .
Sure most of us have all done that in our jobs at some point.
It was a risky move by butcher slating players and telling them too move on early doors and it's back firing as we now have a team in free fall.

[3pm]

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When the butcher appointment came about I was very worried. He had good success with an Inverness club who have never ever achieved anything, was average at Motherwell and dire at Brentford etc.

What ever you think of butcher good or bad he has made some god awful decisions:

Told Taiwo and Thomson they weren't his kind of players and don't expect to play.

Gets rid of Scott Thomson the goalie coach, who to my knowledge is down in England 3 days a week leaving Ben Williams to take goal keeping practice.

Undermind hibs under 20s coach James mcdonaugh on several occasions.

Made Liam Craig (proven SPL box to box goal scorer) captain then leave him on the bench most weeks.

Now people can argue all they want with these points but it's my opinion, guys like butcher work well at small clubs, picking up lower league players and making them hard to beat, that hibs squad should perform a lot better and it's upto the management to get the best out the players.

All this talk about the players not giving a **** etc? Why would they ? Some have been told they won't be here next season and are just picking up a pay cheque toll the end .
Sure most of us have all done that in our jobs at some point.
It was a risky move by butcher slating players and telling them too move on early doors and it's back firing as we now have a team in free fall.

Are you sure about those bits in bold?

[rcarter1]

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When the butcher appointment came about I was very worried. He had good success with an Inverness club who have never ever achieved anything, was average at Motherwell and dire at Brentford etc.

What ever you think of butcher good or bad he has made some god awful decisions:

Told Taiwo and Thomson they weren't his kind of players and don't expect to play.

Gets rid of Scott Thomson the goalie coach, who to my knowledge is down in England 3 days a week leaving Ben Williams to take goal keeping practice.

Undermind hibs under 20s coach James mcdonaugh on several occasions.

Made Liam Craig (proven SPL box to box goal scorer) captain then leave him on the bench most weeks.

Now people can argue all they want with these points but it's my opinion, guys like butcher work well at small clubs, picking up lower league players and making them hard to beat, that hibs squad should perform a lot better and it's upto the management to get the best out the players.

All this talk about the players not giving a **** etc? Why would they ? Some have been told they won't be here next season and are just picking up a pay cheque toll the end .
Sure most of us have all done that in our jobs at some point.
It was a risky move by butcher slating players and telling them too move on early doors and it's back firing as we now have a team in free fall.

This. Its either a deliberate and carefully thought through plan, or it he is losing his cool already.

[sean]

For me the reason the club struggles time and time again is the fact that there is no real Club Identity anymore.

For the last 5 years we have had managers who have not fitted the mild of what the club stands for, now it was meant to always be fast flowing, attractive football. Thats been totally and utterly lost.

The club doesn't seem to have a set of values or an ethos of what it really stands for or believes in, Call me fantisful if you like but shouldn't a club our size dictate the ethos and values to the manager when he is appointed? or all that happens is we go round and round in circles appointing new managers with new ideas and new players while the results stay the same.

Secondly why do we have a youth section? whats its actually really doing in the cold light of day? i don't know how many youth teams Hibernian have but they are all taught to play a different style and a different way right up too senior level where they are taught to play another completley different way again, surely the club again would either be better by having a genuine brand of football all the way through making the transition to senior football 10 times easier for younger players OR scrap youth football, saves thousands and just bring players in on loan like we do every season.


I dont blame Terry Butcher for this, i blame the head of the club for having a lack of direction, ethos and core values which defines any organisation. It has been lost in the last 6-8 years of constant mismanagement and turmoil with no solid foundation.

[AK86]

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Most of the players are good enough for survival, but not much else. We need a few quality players to come in and lift the entire squad. I firmly believe this will happen in the summer window. We're only a player or two away from being 2nd in the league. That is reality, and what I'm looking forward to.

That will be Messi and Ronaldo then.

[Kaiser1962]

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It was a risky move by butcher slating players and telling them too move on early doors and it's back firing as we now have a team in free fall.

I hope for their sake they don't read Hibs Net.