Were Dundee cheated out of their SPL place?

[The Sea-gull]

When the latest cash flow rumblings started around about mid-May everyone reading between the liens could see Hearts were fudging things to get to the end of the season.

Whether they have done anything wrong - I don't know and I don't think many people do. The SPL investigated and found no wrong doing. I'm not convinced how thorough the SPL investigation was. Not very it seems but this is either because it was too complicated for them or they, for some reason have turned a blind eye to it all.

There have been a lot of comments for over a month now which suggested that Hearts would, for tactical reasons, go into admin at some stage in June. Low and behold it has happened. I'm no financial expert by any stretch but surely they would have know for some time now that admin was inevitable despite whatever assurances they have given the SPL. They did everything they could to avoid the points deduction and relegation. While it is immoral, I don't think they are the only team who would do this. Any team in this situation would play the system to meet their own ends.

And there perhaps is the point - what they have done in terms of avoiding the points deduction is immoral but not, certainly in the eyes of the SPL, illegal.

[EH6 Hibby]

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IIRC, the administrator has 8 weeks to make that call.

8 weeks? Who pays their fees for that period then? It's clear Hearts don't have the money and as the assets are still frozen, there won't be a buyer to pay them.

Is it possible that Hearts know something about events in Lithuania that might mean the club can be sold?

[CropleyWasGod]

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8 weeks? Who pays their fees for that period then? It's clear Hearts don't have the money and as the assets are still frozen, there won't be a buyer to pay them.

Is it possible that Hearts know something about events in Lithuania that might mean the club can be sold?

I may be wrong about the 8 weeks. That may be the deadline for the first report. If that's the case, they could come to a conclusion well before then.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I suppose the one good thing from the point of view of the rest of the league is that if they had been 20+ points clear of Dundee in May, you can be sure they would have taken the hit then. Alternatively, if they had made the top six, they would have been locked into sixth place at worst irrespective of any points deduction(s).

Fedotovas said in an interview at the time of their AGM that they had budgeted to finish sixth last season. With their player budget last season they should have been looking to finish top three, particularly with Rangers out of the picture. But if they had been running in the top three after 33 games, an 18 point hit would have dropped them into sixth place, with no prospect of going any higher or lower.

Coincidence?

[Robinho08]

Dundee were not good enough. However I do believe that Hearts held off to avoid relegation, so yes in that retrospect.

[God Petrie]

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Dundee were not good enough. However I do believe that Hearts held off to avoid relegation, so yes in that retrospect.

Hearts wouldn't have been good enough had they been fielding a a team they could actually afford. That's the entire point of the points deduction.

[HiBremian]

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When the latest cash flow rumblings started around about mid-May everyone reading between the liens could see Hearts were fudging things to get to the end of the season.

Whether they have done anything wrong - I don't know and I don't think many people do. The SPL investigated and found no wrong doing. I'm not convinced how thorough the SPL investigation was. Not very it seems but this is either because it was too complicated for them or they, for some reason have turned a blind eye to it all.

There have been a lot of comments for over a month now which suggested that Hearts would, for tactical reasons, go into admin at some stage in June. Low and behold it has happened. I'm no financial expert by any stretch but surely they would have know for some time now that admin was inevitable despite whatever assurances they have given the SPL. They did everything they could to avoid the points deduction and relegation. While it is immoral, I don't think they are the only team who would do this. Any team in this situation would play the system to meet their own ends.

And there perhaps is the point - what they have done in terms of avoiding the points deduction is immoral but not, certainly in the eyes of the SPL, illegal.

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I suppose the one good thing from the point of view of the rest of the league is that if they had been 20+ points clear of Dundee in May, you can be sure they would have taken the hit then. Alternatively, if they had made the top six, they would have been locked into sixth place at worst irrespective of any points deduction(s).

Fedotovas said in an interview at the time of their AGM that they had budgeted to finish sixth last season. With their player budget last season they should have been looking to finish top three, particularly with Rangers out of the picture. But if they had been running in the top three after 33 games, an 18 point hit would have dropped them into sixth place, with no prospect of going any higher or lower.

Coincidence?

No, I don't think it's a coincidence, PTS. What this points to is systemic failure, and why allowing the free enterprise business model in football a free rein inevitably leads to businessmen taking business decisions that have nothing to do with sport. It's also not a coincidence that the word "sport" has 2 meanings, and one of them ain't cheat.

[J-C]

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It was nothing to do with liquidation. The Newco applied to take the Oldco's place in the SPL, and were rejected. That is why Dundee came up.

Hearts penalty last season would have been 18 points.

My point was they were in admin during the season and got docked points, they were liquidated during the summer break, hence why they started in Div 3 and Dundee were asked to replace them at short notice. If Rangers hadn't gone into liquidation and stayed in administration, they'd just be docked the points again at the start of the new season.

[CropleyWasGod]

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My point was they were in admin during the season and got docked points, they were liquidated during the summer break, hence why they started in Div 3 and Dundee were asked to replace them at short notice. If Rangers hadn't gone into liquidation and stayed in administration, they'd just be docked the points again at the start of the new season.

Sorry, that isn't what happened.

The liquidation was not the reason they weren't allowed into the SPL. They transferred the assets to the NewCo, and it was the NewCo that was refused entry to the SPL. The liquidation of the OldCo happened later, and was irrelevant.

[silverhibee]

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Consider the following, which ignores the technical guff about UBIG, Ukio and all that:

The 2012/13 league season (and the date that any penalties would apply in that season) finished on 19 May.

Hearts have sold somewhere between 6000 and 7000 season tickets, generating an estimated £2M in cash. They have been selling these for the last couple of months; started long before the end of the 2012/13 league season.

Hearts completely run out of cash by early June.

There is no way that Hearts have incurred over £2M of costs in the last four weeks, even considering what a financial basket case they have been.

Therefore that season ticket revenue - which is supposed to finance their operations in 2013/14 - was used to finance operations in 2012/13.

If they had started selling season tickets later, or had ring-fenced that income for the operations it was supposed to finance, they would have become insolvent during 2012/13. Thereby incurring an 18 point penalty which (as it turned out) would have relegated Hearts and kept Dundee in the SPL.

And sure i heard Murray on STV news last night saying the club had taken in £1.7m with the share issue. Where did that go.?

[J-C]

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Sorry, that isn't what happened.

The liquidation was not the reason they weren't allowed into the SPL. They transferred the assets to the NewCo, and it was the NewCo that was refused entry to the SPL. The liquidation of the OldCo happened later, and was irrelevant.

Well whatever happened it was during the summer break and any newco had to apply to the league which was rejected, either way the old Rangers don't exist and a new one does, my point being they had the points reduction during the season as that's when admin started. UBIG applied for insolvency during the league season but the SPL decided to wait to make sure it was being done legally, so surely the fact that UBIG were insolvent during the season, that would make Heart insolvent at that time, causing a point deficit to be applied.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Well whatever happened it was during the summer break and any newco had to apply to the league which was rejected, either way the old Rangers don't exist and a new one does, my point being they had the points reduction during the season as that's when admin started. UBIG applied for insolvency during the league season but the SPL decided to wait to make sure it was being done legally, so surely the fact that UBIG were insolvent during the season, that would make Heart insolvent at that time, causing a point deficit to be applied.

Again, that's not what happened. UBIG announced their intention to go into administration, but they haven't yet followed through on that. So, legally, they are not yet in administration.

It's not the SPL's place to judge on insolvency; they are not qualified to do so. Their rules refer to an "insolvency event", rather than insolvency itself.

[Beefster]

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8 weeks? Who pays their fees for that period then? It's clear Hearts don't have the money and as the assets are still frozen, there won't be a buyer to pay them.

Is it possible that Hearts know something about events in Lithuania that might mean the club can be sold?

AFAIK, the administrators fees are paid from the proceeds before any creditors get their pennies.

[GloryGlory]

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And sure i heard Murray on STV news last night saying the club had taken in £1.7m with the share issue. Where did that go.?

Vlad's Cayman Islands bank account?

[Caversham Green]

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Again, that's not what happened. UBIG announced their intention to go into administration, but they haven't yet followed through on that. So, legally, they are not yet in administration.

It's not the SPL's place to judge on insolvency; they are not qualified to do so. Their rules refer to an "insolvency event", rather than insolvency itself.

However, the SPL's definition of an insolvency event includes "ceasing or forming an intention to cease wholly or substantially to carry on business...". I would argue that putting themselves on an official list of companies that were unable to meet their obligations is forming an intention to cease etc and that there was a very strong case for the penalty to have been applied last season.

[CropleyWasGod]

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However, the SPL's definition of an insolvency event includes "ceasing or forming an intention to cease wholly or substantially to carry on business...". I would argue that putting themselves on an official list of companies that were unable to meet their obligations is forming an intention to cease etc and that there was a very strong case for the penalty to have been applied last season.

Yeah, we're agreeing to differ here.

Neil Doncaster said last week that the SPL have lawyers in Lithuania on the case. I am assuming that they have taken their advice.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Paul McConville with some interesting (if impractical) thoughts on this issue:

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.co...legate-hearts/

[Franck Stanton]

Bottom line -- YES CHEATING 6-Fingered puddle drinking, in-breds

[IWasThere2016]

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And sure i heard Murray on STV news last night saying the club had taken in £1.7m with the share issue. Where did that go.?

I'm guessing here but I think there's a good chance it made one or two stops before resting somewhere where a bed-ridden Lithuanian may be able to reach it when required. Or is that too far fetched?

[silverhibee]

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I'm guessing here but I think there's a good chance it made one or two stops before resting somewhere where a bed-ridden Lithuanian may be able to reach it when required. Or is that too far fetched?

Wonder what is in these suitcases these two dodgy guys won't let out of there sight.


http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/199446...-for-the-club/