Were Dundee cheated out of their SPL place?

[Part/Time Supporter]

Consider the following, which ignores the technical guff about UBIG, Ukio and all that:

The 2012/13 league season (and the date that any penalties would apply in that season) finished on 19 May.

Hearts have sold somewhere between 6000 and 7000 season tickets, generating an estimated £2M in cash. They have been selling these for the last couple of months; started long before the end of the 2012/13 league season.

Hearts completely run out of cash by early June.

There is no way that Hearts have incurred over £2M of costs in the last four weeks, even considering what a financial basket case they have been.

Therefore that season ticket revenue - which is supposed to finance their operations in 2013/14 - was used to finance operations in 2012/13.

If they had started selling season tickets later, or had ring-fenced that income for the operations it was supposed to finance, they would have become insolvent during 2012/13. Thereby incurring an 18 point penalty which (as it turned out) would have relegated Hearts and kept Dundee in the SPL.

[GoldenEagle]

Wait until you read John Brown tomorrow ;)

[Boyle89]

In short yes they have. But when hearts get liquidated Dundee will just jump right back up :).

[Part/Time Supporter]

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In short yes they have. But when hearts get liquidated Dundee will just jump right back up :).

Not if they follow the precedent of last season.

[Eyrie]

Short answer is yes, because I can't see what has changed for the Yams since the season finished. Sporting integrity demands that the Yams are booted to Division Three and Dundee or Morton given their place in the top flight to avoid the farce of an uncompetitive mixture of amateurs and under 16s starting the season on -15 points and being certainties for relegation.

As regards the season ticket money, the £2m assumes that it is all paid up front but in practice many may be being paid by instalments so they haven't had the cash yet to burn. Easy to believe though that what money has been paid was used to settle debts and wages for the 2012/13 season.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

A bit like a retrospective red card. It's not the team that is playing at the time that gets the benefit from it, it is the team that plays them next.

[blaikie]

Surely be Morton next year in the league if the maroon morons end up in the EOS league!

[blackpoolhibs]

Never mind Dundee, they cheated me out of just under £1500.

[CropleyWasGod]

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In short yes they have. But when hearts get liquidated Dundee will just jump right back up :).

Hearts will not be liquidated for quite some time. If they are, it won't be before the start of the season.

[clerriehibs]

Has someone not previously stated that the SPL can make a retrospective decision about when a club became insolvent, which they might decide was before the end of the season?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Has someone not previously stated that the SPL can make a retrospective decision about when a club became insolvent, which they might decide was before the end of the season?

Think that was more to do with the UBIG insolvency, no?

It would be a brave decision by the SPFL to make a decision like that, since it would be contrary to Company Law.

[J-C]

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Has someone not previously stated that the SPL can make a retrospective decision about when a club became insolvent, which they might decide was before the end of the season?

Did UBIG not apply for insolvency prior to the end of the season but the league waited till it found out if it was done in a proper legal manner in the Lithuanian courts etc.

[God Petrie]

What happens if Hearts are unable to fulfil their fixtures next season but aren't yet "liquidated"? Zombie Hertz buy their league place (in div3)?

[clerriehibs]

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Did UBIG not apply for insolvency prior to the end of the season but the league waited till it found out if it was done in a proper legal manner in the Lithuanian courts etc.

That's how I remember it; and I'd think, if the SPFL wanted to maintain its fixture integrity for next season, the SPL could retrospectively say that "yes, UBIG did go about it the right way, they were declaring themselves insolvent, and so, apologies hmfc, but your erchie is retrospectively out the window".

[Spike Mandela]

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Hearts will not be liquidated for quite some time. If they are, it won't be before the start of the season.

Haven't some 'knowledgable' posters on here suggested that finances are so grim at Hearts the administrator/judge could go straight to liquidation?

[lEXO]

They probably were. However as someone else has already stated the standard was set last year with Dundee coming up instead of Dunfermline getting the place. They wont take the chance.

[lucky]

I actually think its the only sensible decision the Yam board have made in all this. They raised enough cash to get over the finish line and have given themselves an outside chance of staying up next year if they can avoid liquidation. So whilst they have financially cheated the whole league under SPL rules they are ok. But Dundee have also been financially doping for a number of years so no sympathy for them

[ballengeich]

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Think that was more to do with the UBIG insolvency, no?

It would be a brave decision by the SPFL to make a decision like that, since it would be contrary to Company Law.

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I actually think its the only sensible decision the Yam board have made in all this. They raised enough cash to get over the finish line and have given themselves an outside chance of staying up next year if they can avoid liquidation. So whilst they have financially cheated the whole league under SPL rules they are ok. But Dundee have also been financially doping for a number of years so no sympathy for them

So morally yes, legally no.

[Sir David Gray]

I think it's fairly obvious that Hearts have managed to draw this whole thing out just long enough so they avoided the 18 points deduction last season that would have seen them relegated.

I'm certain that the hierarchy at the club knew what the outcome was going to be last month but, to be fair to them, they did what every club would have done in their position.

If they start on minus 15 points next season, they're going to find it difficult, particularly if they lose most, if not all, of their first team players. However they're still going to have a chance of surviving, which they wouldn't have had if they had lost those points last season.

Dundee can feel aggrieved at the situation but there's no way that they'll be reinstated in the SPL, even if they go bust as it will be Morton who will go up.

[IWasThere2016]

The Yams have lied, lied and lied again. So, yes IMHO.

[KWJ]

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I think it's fairly obvious that Hearts have managed to draw this whole thing out just long enough so they avoided the 18 points deduction last season that would have seen them relegated.

I'm certain that the hierarchy at the club knew what the outcome was going to be last month but, to be fair to them, they did what every club would have done in their position.

If they start on minus 15 points next season, they're going to find it difficult, particularly if they lose most, if not all, of their first team players. However they're still going to have a chance of surviving, which they wouldn't have had if they had lost those points last season.

Dundee can feel aggrieved at the situation but there's no way that they'll be reinstated in the SPL, even if they go bust as it will be Morton who will go up.

What this man said.

The flip-side of this though is that the fans won't be best pleased seeing them take a pumping week-in-week-out and they won't be able to hold on to that feeling of togetherness and winning mentality that Newco Rangers had/have.

Let's see if their fans are still being patient, saying this is for the best when Lewis Stevenson heads home his 2nd hat-trick of the game and the Hibees 14th!

Okay, I got a little carried away but you catch the drift!

[bighairyfaeleith]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scot...os-timing.html

I have to say, brown is right, hearts have once again cheated and a 15 point deduction doesn't even come close to being a suitable punishment. They should be relegated as they blatantly lied to the SPL at the end of the season.

Think it's time to start bombarding folks again with emails and make our feelings known. Can't let these cants wriggle out of this one at all.

[Beefster]

They've been cheating since about 1998 so they were never going to stop until the club was completely taken out of their hands.

[Salisbury Hibby]

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As regards the season ticket money, the £2m assumes that it is all paid up front but in practice many may be being paid by instalments so they haven't had the cash yet to burn. Easy to believe though that what money has been paid was used to settle debts and wages for the 2012/13 season.

Hearts would have got the full funds from the company administering season ticket finance. I think that's how it usually works.

[Pete]

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They've been cheating since about 1998 so they were never going to stop until the club was completely taken out of their hands.

How many teams have actually been cheated during this period of financial doping, especially the romanov era?

How many teams have been knocked out of cups and finished in lower league positions because they were spending money they didn't have?

They are a disgrace and deserve everything that is coming...and more. Self-confessed cheats and they will take that reputation to the grave.

[bingo70]

He says rangers were punished for administration but they weren't really, think they got a 10 point penalty so were still guaranteed to finish second, it was liquidation what done the old rangers.

[GloryGlory]

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I actually think its the only sensible decision the Yam board have made in all this. They raised enough cash to get over the finish line and have given themselves an outside chance of staying up next year if they can avoid liquidation. So whilst they have financially cheated the whole league under SPL rules they are ok. But Dundee have also been financially doping for a number of years so no sympathy for them

Surely under company law the Yam directors have a few hard questions to answer? They have been trading while insolvent for some time and yet have only now decided to appoint administrators. Could even be a case for the fraud squad!

[J-C]

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They probably were. However as someone else has already stated the standard was set last year with Dundee coming up instead of Dunfermline getting the place. They wont take the chance.

Did Rangers not go into liquidation after the end of that season, hence it was the team lying in 2nd in Div 1 who came up. If UBIG therefore Hearts applied for insolvency prior to the end of the league season, then surely a 15 pt penalty would've been incurred and they not Dundee would've been relegated.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Haven't some 'knowledgable' posters on here suggested that finances are so grim at Hearts the administrator/judge could go straight to liquidation?

IIRC, the administrator has 8 weeks to make that call.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Did Rangers not go into liquidation after the end of that season, hence it was the team lying in 2nd in Div 1 who came up. If UBIG therefore Hearts applied for insolvency prior to the end of the league season, then surely a 15 pt penalty would've been incurred and they not Dundee would've been relegated.

It was nothing to do with liquidation. The Newco applied to take the Oldco's place in the SPL, and were rejected. That is why Dundee came up.

Hearts penalty last season would have been 18 points.