The Fenlon Debate

[blackpoolhibs]

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Fenlon was quite right to pick the team he did. We should be protecting a few key players in games like that. The team that we put out should have been more than capable of taking care of QOTS. It was the players themselves who dropped the standard, let down the fan, and let down the manager.

Unfortunately the result tells me he was wrong to pick the team he did, we all knew beforehand this would be a tricky tie, and thats how it panned out.

Resting players this early in the season is ridiculous, especially with a free week coming up.

How to shatter a clubs confidence in one easy lesson, well done to all involved.

[500miles]

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Unfortunately the result tells me he was wrong to pick the team he did, we all knew beforehand this would be a tricky tie, and thats how it panned out.

Resting players this early in the season is ridiculous, especially with a free week coming up.

How to shatter a clubs confidence in one easy lesson, well done to all involved.

Doesn't matter. Kujabi set up 3 goals in a trashing of the St. Mirren reserves game, and Fenlon will have been deciding whether to use some of his limited resources on a CH, or if O'Hanlon can be relied on. Both players are good enough to be Div 2 opposition, but the problem wasn't just them. Griffiths missed an open goal, hit the bar and should have cut back for Doyle, and Kuqi took a shot straight at the keeper that would have been a goal either side, Deegan and Claros didn't manage to get the game by the scruff of the neck.....

Every player should have been capable but they didn't produce.

Bad day at the office for some, wrong attitude from other, but that team should be beating QOTS, even if the manager was on holiday FFS. It was the fault of the players, and that includes the more popular players like Deegan and Griffiths.

[jacomo]

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Fenlon was quite right to pick the team he did. We should be protecting a few key players in games like that. The team that we put out should have been more than capable of taking care of QOTS. It was the players themselves who dropped the standard, let down the fan, and let down the manager.

No he wasn't. The result not enough evidence enough for you?

Games like what? Games we should definitely win? Coz it clearly wasn't one of those.

The manager selects the team and the manager takes responsibility for results. If that isn't clear then he has no business being the manager.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Doesn't matter. Kujabi set up 3 goals in a trashing of the St. Mirren reserves game, and Fenlon will have been deciding whether to use some of his limited resources on a CH, or if O'Hanlon can be relied on. Both players are good enough to be Div 2 opposition, but the problem wasn't just them. Griffiths missed an open goal, hit the bar and should have cut back for Doyle, and Kuqi took a shot straight at the keeper that would have been a goal either side, Deegan and Claros didn't manage to get the game by the scruff of the neck.....

Every player should have been capable but they didn't produce.

Bad day at the office for some, wrong attitude from other, but that team should be beating QOTS, even if the manager was on holiday FFS. It was the fault of the players, and that includes the more popular players like Deegan and Griffiths.

Oh i think it does, we dont have a side we can intentionally weaken to take on any team never mind a tricky away tie at a lower league club.

You only have to look at how sevco are struggling to win on their travels in the 4th division to know that.

[lyonhibs]

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Doesn't matter. Kujabi set up 3 goals in a trashing of the St. Mirren reserves game, and Fenlon will have been deciding whether to use some of his limited resources on a CH, or if O'Hanlon can be relied on. Both players are good enough to be Div 2 opposition, but the problem wasn't just them. Griffiths missed an open goal, hit the bar and should have cut back for Doyle, and Kuqi took a shot straight at the keeper that would have been a goal either side, Deegan and Claros didn't manage to get the game by the scruff of the neck.....

Every player should have been capable but they didn't produce.

Bad day at the office for some, wrong attitude from other, but that team should be beating QOTS, even if the manager was on holiday FFS. It was the fault of the players, and that includes the more popular players like Deegan and Griffiths.

If the manager is using performances in a reserve game (as opposed to past performance for the 1st team, which should be enough to let Stevie Wonder see that Kujabi ain't got it at LB) as his main criteria for deciding who gets to pull on the green & white in one of our 2 chances for silverware, then the game is up the pole.

Also, every man and his dog knows that O'Hanlon can't be relied upon. 2nd division or not, this was an away game at a pokey wee ground. Far from ideal and far from easy. Better teams than Hibs have come unstuck in the past at lower league opposition, so why Fenlon thought it appropriate to tinker with a winning side I don't know.

What I do know is that the best, most in-form 11 fit players should play at Celtic Park this weekend, and every game this season forthwith. No more tinkering about when our "plan B" players are so very clearly not up to the task.

[hibsbollah]

Before kickoff on Tuesday i said id be happy for Fenlon to give some players a rest for the night, its easy with hindsight but Kujabi has shown good things last season, Booth obviously has talent, Kuqi needed games...as has already been said Fenlon cant have foreseen how spectacularly his players let him down. A squad is just that, a squad. I would have expected the players above on a normal night to have been too much for a third division team. (i exclude ohanlon from that, i wouldnt trust him to put one foot in front of the other but thats just me).

[Famous5forever]

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Doesn't matter. Kujabi set up 3 goals in a trashing of the St. Mirren reserves game, and Fenlon will have been deciding whether to use some of his limited resources on a CH, or if O'Hanlon can be relied on. Both players are good enough to be Div 2 opposition, but the problem wasn't just them. Griffiths missed an open goal, hit the bar and should have cut back for Doyle, and Kuqi took a shot straight at the keeper that would have been a goal either side, Deegan and Claros didn't manage to get the game by the scruff of the neck.....

Every player should have been capable but they didn't produce.

Bad day at the office for some, wrong attitude from other, but that team should be beating QOTS, even if the manager was on holiday FFS. It was the fault of the players, and that includes the more popular players like Deegan and Griffiths.

This is frightening if a few of our better players hit bad form a couple of injuries to others and suspensions then we are goosed as the fringe players are dross Paddy still needs to clear a lot of the dross out to be replaced by quality hopefully this squad can get us through till the window opens again in January so we can bring more players in.

What we need is 3 or 4 wins on the trot to install confidence Paddy saying he " Is Disgusted " with them does not help.

[HFC 0-7]

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Before kickoff on Tuesday i said id be happy for Fenlon to give some players a rest for the night, its easy with hindsight but Kujabi has shown good things last season, Booth obviously has talent, Kuqi needed games...as has already been said Fenlon cant have foreseen how spectacularly his players let him down. A squad is just that, a squad. I would have expected the players above on a normal night to have been too much for a third division team. (i exclude ohanlon from that, i wouldnt trust him to put one foot in front of the other but thats just me).

Disagree, these players that he brought in let us down last season, especially O ' Hanlon. We have had a problem with our defence for a few seasons now and O ' Hanlon was a big part of that, we have just got a semi decent defence for 3 games and its changed to put in the players that have let us down. Why we are resting players 4 games into a season is also strange, these are professional footballers who should be able to play over 30 games a season easy. We are just off the back of a horrific season where we couldnt compete with anyone, to start playing better and change the players that have been playing well with ones that let us down is crazy.

i just dont understand why we are resting players at this stage of the season, possibly resting one at a time at a push but to change half the defence, an area that has plagued us previously can only be viewed as a mistake from the manager.

[JimBHibees]

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This is frightening if a few of our better players hit bad form a couple of injuries to others and suspensions then we are goosed as the fringe players are dross Paddy still needs to clear a lot of the dross out to be replaced by quality hopefully this squad can get us through till the window opens again in January so we can bring more players in.

What we need is 3 or 4 wins on the trot to install confidence Paddy saying he " Is Disgusted " with them does not help.

I am sure he will be working every hour until tomorrow night to improve his squad both in and out. I would prefer a manager to be honest with his players rather than "blow smoke up their ass". Players arent stupid (sometimes) I think they will realise Tuesday's result wasnt good enough. I agree with him I was disgusted with the score also.

[Baldy Foghorn]

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Need a banner for parkhead telling them "qos ffs hang your heads low"

Utterly unacceptable

Yes, that's sure to give the players a huge lift

[Baldy Foghorn]

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No he wasn't. The result not enough evidence enough for you?

Games like what? Games we should definitely win? Coz it clearly wasn't one of those.

The manager selects the team and the manager takes responsibility for results. If that isn't clear then he has no business being the manager.

So no blame is apportioned to every outfield player who were collectively and individually shambolic???

Lucky old PF, hope he has big shoulders.....

[500miles]

If those players went out and done the professional nights work that they are all capable of, we would have won. Every one if those players is professional and, booth apart, have proven themselves at a professional level. Pat put trust in players he would have hoped had been lifted by the teams recent form, and they let him down. One criticism I would have is that I would have swapped booth and kujabi, as I think the latter would be a good winger

[Baldy Foghorn]

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If those players went out and done the professional nights work that they are all capable of, we would have won. Every one if those players is professional and, booth apart, have proven themselves at a professional level. Pat put trust in players he would have hoped had been lifted by the teams recent form, and they let him down. One criticism I would have is that I would have swapped booth and kujabi, as I think the latter would be a good winger

Agreed......

[jacomo]

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So no blame is apportioned to every outfield player who were collectively and individually shambolic???

Lucky old PF, hope he has big shoulders.....

Not what I said.

What I said is that absolving PF of any blame for Tuesday is ridiculous - he got it wrong, plain and simple.

[lord bunberry]

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Not what I said.

What I said is that absolving PF of any blame for Tuesday is ridiculous - he got it wrong, plain and simple.

He did he put his faith in players who are not good enough he underestimated the opposition and we paid the price he needs to learn from this and play our strongest 11 in every match from now on

[Famous5forever]

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I am sure he will be working every hour until tomorrow night to improve his squad both in and out. I would prefer a manager to be honest with his players rather than "blow smoke up their ass". Players arent stupid (sometimes) I think they will realise Tuesday's result wasnt good enough. I agree with him I was disgusted with the score also.

I Know he has brought in 15 players in his short time at the helm but i still think we need at least 2 more and preferably 4 to 5 new players to have decent cover in all positions i am not convinced Kuqi is the answer but ill reserve judgement till he has a few games under his belt.

[Baldy Foghorn]

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Not what I said.

What I said is that absolving PF of any blame for Tuesday is ridiculous - he got it wrong, plain and simple.

If you read your post you say it is manager who picks the team....It reads to me from your post that you blame PF, and make no mention of the abysmal display from the players.....

[matty_f]

Credit to Pat for the result and performance today. Great way to come back from Tuesday.

[LeighLoyal]

I'm still hurting a bit from Tuesday night, but today made up for it. I hope Fenlon stays as Hibs managers for a few years and builds a team as exciting as the McLeish and Mowbray ones.

[jacomo]

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If you read your post you say it is manager who picks the team....It reads to me from your post that you blame PF, and make no mention of the abysmal display from the players.....

We could talk all day about the failings of the Hibs players - thankfully fewer of them around now - but this thread is about Fenlon, and whether or not he got it wrong on Tuesday. He did.

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Credit to Pat for the result and performance today. Great way to come back from Tuesday.

see, credit where its due

[blackpoolhibs]

Pat deserves enormous credit for yesterdays draw, well done Pat and the team.

[Captain Trips]

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Pat deserves enormous credit for yesterdays draw, well done Pat and the team.

Indeed no debate on here or talk from PF or players will make me think PF is right man only a continuation of results like yesterday will so please keep it up and I will be delighted to be wrong.

[basehibby]

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If the manager is using performances in a reserve game (as opposed to past performance for the 1st team, which should be enough to let Stevie Wonder see that Kujabi ain't got it at LB) as his main criteria for deciding who gets to pull on the green & white in one of our 2 chances for silverware, then the game is up the pole.

Also, every man and his dog knows that O'Hanlon can't be relied upon. 2nd division or not, this was an away game at a pokey wee ground. Far from ideal and far from easy. Better teams than Hibs have come unstuck in the past at lower league opposition, so why Fenlon thought it appropriate to tinker with a winning side I don't know.

What I do know is that the best, most in-form 11 fit players should play at Celtic Park this weekend, and every game this season forthwith. No more tinkering about when our "plan B" players are so very clearly not up to the task.

You obviously don't get to many games from down there in Oxford then!

Any regular attendee at ER from last season could tell you that Kujabi performed consistently WELL against bottom 6 teams. It was only against teams in the top 6 with quality wingers that he started to struggle a bit. On that basis I would have expected him to have no great problems playing against a 2nd Div side.

As it goes, I tend to agree that Fenlon got it wrong in making too many changes against QOS but that does not mean I will suddenly erase from memory the positive things he has done at Hibs so far - what I see is a team in progress. Part of that progress was signing Kujabi, who, after helping to steady the defence and earning plaudits with a superb assist for GOC to help earn us a place in the Cup Final, has since been piloried by fickle Hibs supporters and made a scapegoat for the whole team's non-performance that day.

I'm not saying Kujabi is any kind of superstar (see above) but I am heartilly sick of certain so called supporters who cannot open their mouths/browsers without laying into their latest scapegoat.

Anyway - back to the Fenlon debate - games like QOS and THAT game in May are evidence that Pat is certainly human and has made mistakes in terms of tactics and setting his teams out. That said he has also displayed some very important qualities indeed - first among them the ability to spot where things are going wrong and identify and attract the kind of players to rectify the problems. I would add focus, determination and an ability to communicate frankly and intelligently to the list.

The end of the transfer window was perhaps a bit disappointing in that it left positions identified by Fenlon himself as understrength unchanged. There is still a positive to take from this though - what it says to me is that PF is dead set on building a TEAM and that panic buys are not his thing. That will do fine for me - it may take a wee while but I believe this policy will see a steady progress up the table season on season.

[basehibby]

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Disagree, these players that he brought in let us down last season, especially O ' Hanlon. We have had a problem with our defence for a few seasons now and O ' Hanlon was a big part of that, we have just got a semi decent defence for 3 games and its changed to put in the players that have let us down. Why we are resting players 4 games into a season is also strange, these are professional footballers who should be able to play over 30 games a season easy. We are just off the back of a horrific season where we couldnt compete with anyone, to start playing better and change the players that have been playing well with ones that let us down is crazy.

i just dont understand why we are resting players at this stage of the season, possibly resting one at a time at a push but to change half the defence, an area that has plagued us previously can only be viewed as a mistake from the manager.

O'Hanlon was brought in by CC as you would know if you'd been paying attention.

[HFC 0-7]

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O'Hanlon was brought in by CC as you would know if you'd been paying attention.

Doest matter who brought him in, Fenlon knew enough about him to know that the team had been le down by his performances before, that was my point. Don't play players that aren't good enough if there are better players available. What are you saying? Because he didn't bring him in he didn't know he was a liability?

[basehibby]

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Doest matter who brought him in, Fenlon knew enough about him to know that the team had been le down by his performances before, that was my point. Don't play players that aren't good enough if there are better players available. What are you saying? Because he didn't bring him in he didn't know he was a liability?

Yes it does matter when that's what you're being corrected about. You stated that Fenlon's signings had let us down - especially O'Hanlon - blatant BS that needed to be corrected.

As it goes, much as I didn't rate him myself, O'Hanlon did pretty well in his last appearance before QOS (away vs Aberdeen?). Therefore, given that McPake apparently needed rested, his inclusion DID make sense. Not sure if I would have made all the other changes though.

[HFC 0-7]

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Yes it does matter when that's what you're being corrected about. You stated that Fenlon's signings had let us down - especially O'Hanlon - blatant BS that needed to be corrected.

As it goes, much as I didn't rate him myself, O'Hanlon did pretty well in his last appearance before QOS (away vs Aberdeen?). Therefore, given that McPake apparently needed rested, his inclusion DID make sense. Not sure if I would have made all the other changes though.

Never said his signings at all! I said the players he brought in, as in players he brought into the side for that game, perhaps could have worded it better, but you seem prefer just to lay into peoples posts.

So the BS here is from you as I never mentioned signings anywhere in my post!