Dunfermline in the Sticky Stuff

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

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Radio Scotland breaking news that Dunfermline players have not been paid their full wages. Having worked in Dunfermiline and also seen them bring 4 or 5000 fans to ER in the past, I have to say I'm puzzled by their poor crowds this season.

Who remembers the 3-3 draw at East End on the opening day of the season in the mid 80's? Must have been 12000 there that day. The same fixture a few weeks ago attracted about half that with the majority Hibs fans.

That was a great game Frazer, Beedie scored IIRC, next again away game was away to Morton, also 3 3, Im sure Weir scored a couple before he went to Luton.

[Frazerbob]

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That was a great game Frazer, Beedie scored IIRC, next again away game was away to Morton, also 3 3, Im sure Weir scored a couple before he went to Luton.

That's right. Remember thinking Weir was off to a huge English club......Luton!

The Scottish Cup game mentioned earlier was great as well. Pars were in the first and brought a cracking support (4-5000). We won 2-0 and I still remember Archie McPherson's commentary when Steve Cowan missed an easy header....."inexplicable ducking of the head". We still say that when ever anyone misses a header! Funny how you can remember all these details from games 25 years ago but can't even remember the score from games last season!

[Newry Hibs]

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That's right. Remember thinking Weir was off to a huge English club......Luton!

The Scottish Cup game mentioned earlier was great as well. Pars were in the first and brought a cracking support (4-5000). We won 2-0 and I still remember Archie McPherson's commentary when Steve Cowan missed an easy header....."inexplicable ducking of the head". We still say that when ever anyone misses a header! Funny how you can remember all these details from games 25 years ago but can't even remember the score from games last season!

I was living in Luton then and was (and still am) a Luton fan, going to most games around that time. In fairness, Luton were a very good team at that time and pre-premiership money were well capable of competing towards the top of the league. I remember when Mickey came down, I couldn't bring myself to watch as I was disappointed he left Hibs.

[JimBHibees]

Very sad indeed their support for the recent 3-2 game at home was embarressing IMO with part of their stand closed also. Incredible that they have just come up last season to be met with such local apathy as I am sure alot of their season tickets would have been reasonably priced for kids etc. A decent sized town with an excellent relatively recent history in the game who have home crowds of 3k tops should be a huge wake up call for the game in this country.

[Devonhibs]

Wouldn't have this problem if they had given RFC the two finger salute and sold direct and avoid paying commission etc.

[JeMeSouviens]

Statement on the Pars' website:

Due to the continuing delay by the Administrators at Rangers in paying the ticket revenue from the game held at East End Park on 11th February 2012 it has been necessary to part pay the Club's February salaries to all staff including management and players.

Bill Hodgins, Chief Executive said " by Monday all staff will have received 80% of their salary and we will be in a position to pay the remaining balance within ten days.

Our staff are aware that this situation is out with the Clubs control and they have been extremely understanding and supportive. In the meantime the Scottish Premier League are in constant dialogue with the Administrator at Rangers in order to try and secure payment of our ticket income of £84,000 that was due on 21st February 2012."

[CropleyWasGod]

I am tempted to say "that's business for you".

In all insolvencies, there are casualties. It's not just the owners and employees of the failed business, but their suppliers as well, who lose out. DAFC are a clear example of this, but such cases happen all the time in other industries. It's a risk, and these days an substantial one, that is a fact of business life.

The trick, if you can manage it, is to anticipate such events, and plan for them in a way that minimises your potential loss. For example, in the SPL situation, I can see most clubs adopting the "direct-sale" approach that Hibs and Hearts have used recently. Also, a "retention of title" clause, if that's possible, in player transfers.

[Part/Time Supporter]

They'll be struggling to pay March salaries as well because they don't have any games after Saturday for three weeks.

[kennyh]

Surely the SPL can help as these are extraordinary circumstances. They should be able to take money out of RFC's Prize Money for coming second/third whatever which would be paid at the end of the season and give it to DAFC and DUFC now. Why should other clubs be pulled down because of them.

I know some Hearts fans believe this will happen as they claim there is a clause in the SPL rule book that protects them if RFC don't come up with the readies when the next transfer instalment is due. Has anyone seen any evidence to back up their claims ?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Surely the SPL can help as these are extraordinary circumstances. They should be able to take money out of RFC's Prize Money for coming second/third whatever which would be paid at the end of the season and give it to DAFC and DUFC now. Why should other clubs be pulled down because of them.

I know some Hearts fans believe this will happen as they claim there is a clause in the SPL rule book that protects them if RFC don't come up with the readies when the next transfer instalment is due. Has anyone seen any evidence to back up their claims ?

There is precedent, in that the SPL advanced Gretna's prize money.

But why should Rangers pay for poor financial management by Dunfermline?; it's not Rangers fault that they have lost £1.5m over the past two seasons.

[greenlex]

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There is precedent, in that the SPL advanced Gretna's prize money.

But why should Rangers pay for poor financial management by Dunfermline?; it's not Rangers fault that they have lost £1.5m over the past two seasons.

To be fair losing £1.5M over the last two seasons is not the reason the players havent been paid. Its because another SPL Club has not paid them what they are due that has caused this.
Rangers are not being asked to bail them out. They are being asked to pay what is due to alllow them to go about their business.

[Bad Martini]

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But why should Rangers pay for poor financial management by Dunfermline?; it's not Rangers fault that they have lost £1.5m over the past two seasons.

EVERYTHING is rangers fault:

NEVER forget that.

MON THE LIQUIDATORS AND HMRC

[basehibby]

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I live and work in the Dunfermline area and it sickens me the old firm dominance. In my work (a large call centre) I can think of about 5 Dunfermline fans, with only about 2 of them going to regular matches. There is 2 other hibbys, they don't go to ER, 2 raith fans, 1 of which goes to games, then the rest are armchair OF fans. Think they know everything about Scottish football and are diehard fans because they watch their team every other week on the tv.

Bad isn't it - these people (in football terms at least) are nothing but a shower of ham-shankers and worthy of everybody's contempt. But they are actually in the majority in the likes of Dunfermline!

Nae wonder the Scottish game is dying on it's feet. Have a look down south and you'll find provincial towns like Sunderland where the team has next to no chance at glory and yet they are faithfully and proudly backed by the whole town. As described above, it was closer to that up here in the past - where did it all go wrong

[Kato]

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EVERYTHING is rangers fault'. EVERYTHING.

After a few minutes reflection, you're not far wrong.

[Stevie Reid]

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Radio Scotland breaking news that Dunfermline players have not been paid their full wages. Having worked in Dunfermiline and also seen them bring 4 or 5000 fans to ER in the past, I have to say I'm puzzled by their poor crowds this season.

Who remembers the 3-3 draw at East End on the opening day of the season in the mid 80's? Must have been 12000 there that day. The same fixture a few weeks ago attracted about half that with the majority Hibs fans.

I was there with my Dad and Brother, great atmosphere and a brilliant hot sunny day - IIRC we went a goal down early doors before equalising just before half time and going 2-1 immediately after the second half started. Think I can remember Kano and Weir scoring for us.

[EuanH78]

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Bad isn't it - these people (in football terms at least) are nothing but a shower of ham-shankers and worthy of everybody's contempt. But they are actually in the majority in the likes of Dunfermline!

Nae wonder the Scottish game is dying on it's feet. Have a look down south and you'll find provincial towns like Sunderland where the team has next to no chance at glory and yet they are faithfully and proudly backed by the whole town. As described above, it was closer to that up here in the past - where did it all go wrong

It all went wrong in 1988 or just before, David Murray went on his ego trip bought the hun and won 9 in a row(I think Dundee Utd had won the top division once and Aberdeen three? times since 1980 so competition was there, and of course Hearts near miss in 86).

I was quite young at the time (10 in 88) but remember Celtc were not that strong at all and Rangers were throwing money about. This was the catalyst for a resurgent Celtc (who before Fergus McCan where actually just an average Scottish football team IIRC)

Those 2 had access to funding no-one else could match and ever since we have seen a slow, gradual decline in the Scottish game, unbalanced and bias in formation and everything else to keep the OF juggernaut fuelled. Thats my take on it anyway.

IMO of course, but we must change the way Scottish football works or teams like Dunfermline will keep having to live on OF life support. Totally unhealthy and killing the Scottish game completely. Short term pain needed, again IMO but I think anyone thinking Scottish football needs Rangers is off their head.

[kennyh]

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There is precedent, in that the SPL advanced Gretna's prize money.

But why should Rangers pay for poor financial management by Dunfermline?; it's not Rangers fault that they have lost £1.5m over the past two seasons.

Obviously Pars were expecting anbd would have budgeted ~100K in their cashflow projections this month from RFC when fixtures were anounced. Pars have overestimated crowds in the SPL and have made problems for themselves as a result but they are owed £100K, why should they lose any more money when this part of their increasing debt is not their fault.

[IWasThere2016]

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I live and work in the Dunfermline area and it sickens me the old firm dominance. In my work (a large call centre) I can think of about 5 Dunfermline fans, with only about 2 of them going to regular matches. There is 2 other hibbys, they don't go to ER, 2 raith fans, 1 of which goes to games, then the rest are armchair OF fans. Think they know everything about Scottish football and are diehard fans because they watch their team every other week on the tv.

True of most of Fife.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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Obviously Pars were expecting anbd would have budgeted ~100K in their cashflow projections this month from RFC when fixtures were anounced. Pars have overestimated crowds in the SPL and have made problems for themselves as a result but they are owed £100K, why should they lose any more money when this part of their increasing debt is not their fault.

Makes their business in January (adding four players and only letting one go) look a bit bonkers if they were sailing that close to the wind.

[Hibs Class]

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Makes their business in January (adding four players and only letting one go) look a bit bonkers if they were sailing that close to the wind.

Kenny H above is right - this is a cash flow issue not a P&L issue. Given that they were looking like joint favourites for relegation they may well have calculated cashflow to the end of the season and worked out what extra they could spend on their attempt to avoid it.

[Kojock]

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I remember that game you mentioned, would it have been '86 or '87 ? We had a big support there that day too.
Probably my favourite away day in the past, I hope they're ok.

08/08/1987 Dunfermline 3 Hibs 3 then two weeks later we drew with Morton (a) again 3-3. Remember both games well.

[Ozyhibby]

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Bad isn't it - these people (in football terms at least) are nothing but a shower of ham-shankers and worthy of everybody's contempt. But they are actually in the majority in the likes of Dunfermline!

Nae wonder the Scottish game is dying on it's feet. Have a look down south and you'll find provincial towns like Sunderland where the team has next to no chance at glory and yet they are faithfully and proudly backed by the whole town. As described above, it was closer to that up here in the past - where did it all go wrong

Not a fair comparison. Sunderland have a population of 290k compaired to about 40000 people in Dunfermline.
A better comparison would be Yeovil with a similar population. How many kids in Yeovil would be wearing Yeovil town strips as opposed to man u, Liverpool, Bristol or Portsmouth strips?

[Bristolhibby]

Are the Pars in danger of going into administration?

If that's the case I for one don't want Rangers to pay.

A quick 10 point deduction, goodbye Dunfermline, hello safety for Hibs.

Done.

J

[EuanH78]

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Are the Pars in danger of going into administration?

If that's the case I for one don't want Rangers to pay.

A quick 10 point deduction, goodbye Dunfermline, hello safety for Hibs.

Done.

J

The Pars are a decent club, I would not like them to go into administration even though it may benefit us. I would rather we dug out our own mess tbh.

[PatHead]

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The Pars are a decent club, I would not like them to go into administration even though it may benefit us. I would rather we dug out our own mess tbh.

Although they may be a decent club just now it is not long since they were outbidding Hibs for players like Stevie Crawford and Craig Brewster. In the process doing much better than us. Half way through the second season of doing this they had to re-negotiate contracts with the players giving them a wage cut. I still find it difficult to have sympathy with clubs living above their means.

Also they don't contribute to the wider good of the Scottish game. Can't think of the last youngster to come through the ranks at Dumfermline. Finally Jim McIntyre scored the winning goal 2 seasons in a row in the Scottish Cup semi (Dundee Utd and Dumfermline) so no sympathy.

[Bristolhibby]

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Although they may be a decent club just now it is not long since they were outbidding Hibs for players like Stevie Crawford and Craig Brewster. In the process doing much better than us. Half way through the second season of doing this they had to re-negotiate contracts with the players giving them a wage cut. I still find it difficult to have sympathy with clubs living above their means.

Also they don't contribute to the wider good of the Scottish game. Can't think of the last youngster to come through the ranks at Dumfermline. Finally Jim McIntyre scored the winning goal 2 seasons in a row in the Scottish Cup semi (Dundee Utd and Dumfermline) so no sympathy.

Agree with this.

The time for sentamentality is when we are sitting second, CL place secured and a Scottish Cup final to win against Kilmarnock.

Not when we are second bottom, and 3 points above Dunfermline.

If them entering administration saves Hibs from relegation then there is no decision IMO.

J

[EuanH78]

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Although they may be a decent club just now it is not long since they were outbidding Hibs for players like Stevie Crawford and Craig Brewster. In the process doing much better than us. Half way through the second season of doing this they had to re-negotiate contracts with the players giving them a wage cut. I still find it difficult to have sympathy with clubs living above their means.

Also they don't contribute to the wider good of the Scottish game. Can't think of the last youngster to come through the ranks at Dumfermline. Finally Jim McIntyre scored the winning goal 2 seasons in a row in the Scottish Cup semi (Dundee Utd and Dumfermline) so no sympathy.

Lots of clubs have, at some point, lived beyond their means, us included. I just think in the grand scheme of Scottish football, Dunfermline are one of the good guys and wouldnt like to see them in serious trouble. That we are in a relegation dogfight with them right now is immaterial to my position (I believe we will be ok on our own steam anyway) so feel we can afford some sympathy.

[jst1875]

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Surely the SPL can help as these are extraordinary circumstances. They should be able to take money out of RFC's Prize Money for coming second/third whatever which would be paid at the end of the season and give it to DAFC and DUFC now. Why should other clubs be pulled down because of them.

I know some Hearts fans believe this will happen as they claim there is a clause in the SPL rule book that protects them if RFC don't come up with the readies when the next transfer instalment is due. Has anyone seen any evidence to back up their claims ?

if the investigation into players contracts goes against rangers then surely they wont be entitled to any prize money regardless of what position they finish

[weonlywon6-2]

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I live and work in the Dunfermline area and it sickens me the old firm dominance. In my work (a large call centre) I can think of about 5 Dunfermline fans, with only about 2 of them going to regular matches. There is 2 other hibbys, they don't go to ER, 2 raith fans, 1 of which goes to games, then the rest are armchair OF fans. Think they know everything about Scottish football and are diehard fans because they watch their team every other week on the tv.

rather sadly this is a common occurence across the country.

i sat a while ago with a group of old firm fans at work and i asked how many old firm games they had been to, none was the reply from them all

[CropleyWasGod]

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Obviously Pars were expecting anbd would have budgeted ~100K in their cashflow projections this month from RFC when fixtures were anounced. Pars have overestimated crowds in the SPL and have made problems for themselves as a result but they are owed £100K, why should they lose any more money when this part of their increasing debt is not their fault.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate, of course, but DAFC must have heard the gossip about RFC earlier in the season. It wouldn't have been beyond them to do what we did with Hearts, and get the money themselves.

Yeah, I know, 50/50 hindsight.....