Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Mellow Hibee]

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That's exactly what the establishment want. Everything swept under the carpet, lots of wealthy individuals protected and made richer. Nice few 'loans' that will never be paid back, several titles won with money they avoided paying to the public purse.Job Done!

No doubt all the missing EBT documentation in the same shredder as the 114 missing files relating to paedophilia scandal at Westminster.

The UK establishment really takes us for a bunch of mugs.

I'm not sure what you mean by the establishment?

HMRC fought against an agressive avoidance scheme and took MIH to court twice to try to secure money (through other EBT cases) for the UK taxpayer.

[Bishop Hibee]

Has the EBT 'loophole' been closed or are other clubs free to use it? If not closed then it is something Hibs should look into.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Has the EBT 'loophole' been closed or are other clubs free to use it? If not closed then it is something Hibs should look into.

It was closed some years ago.

[AndyM_1875]

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HMRC were never chasing the debt. Even if they had won this case, they would have got very little.

It was always about establishing a precedent to enable them to pursue other clubs who operated the same schemes and who do have money.

Yep I know that. Similar schemes were operated by several current English Premiership & Championship clubs.

However chucking more money at this Rangers thing is wasting everyone's time and the public purse doesn't deserve any more of this.

[AndyM_1875]

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That's exactly what the establishment want. Everything swept under the carpet, lots of wealthy individuals protected and made richer. Nice few 'loans' that will never be paid back, several titles won with money they avoided paying to the public purse.Job Done!

No doubt all the missing EBT documentation in the same shredder as the 114 missing files relating to paedophilia scandal at Westminster.

The UK establishment really takes us for a bunch of mugs.

The UK or Scottish establishment doesn't give a **** about a stupid Glasgow football team that ran up debts and became persona non grata in the post new Labour luvvie environment due to the behaviour of its fans & their bigotry. The Establishment never lifted a finger to help Rangers. Unlike Hearts where you had the first Minister of Scotland pressurising the Lithuanian Ambassador etc.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Yep I know that. Similar schemes were operated by several current English Premiership & Championship clubs.

However chucking more money at this Rangers thing is wasting everyone's time and the public purse doesn't deserve any more of this.

That's how case law works, though.
Had HMRC won, the public purse would have benefitted by applying the precedent to those other clubs.

It's easy to say in hindsight that it was a waste of money.

[Spike Mandela]

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The UK or Scottish establishment doesn't give a **** about a stupid Glasgow football team that ran up debts and became persona non grata in the post new Labour luvvie environment due to the behaviour of its fans & their bigotry. The Establishment never lifted a finger to help Rangers. Unlike Hearts where you had the first Minister of Scotland pressurising the Lithuanian Ambassador etc.

Aye, OK then.

[Weststandwanab]

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That's exactly what the establishment want. Everything swept under the carpet, lots of wealthy individuals protected and made richer. Nice few 'loans' that will never be paid back, several titles won with money they avoided paying to the public purse.Job Done!

No doubt all the missing EBT documentation in the same shredder as the 114 missing files relating to paedophilia scandal at Westminster.

The UK establishment really takes us for a bunch of mugs.

Just about correct!

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HMRC were never chasing the debt. Even if they had won this case, they would have got very little.

It was always about establishing a precedent to enable them to pursue other clubs who operated the same schemes and who do have money.

We always knew that was the case.

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Has the EBT 'loophole' been closed or are other clubs free to use it? If not closed then it is something Hibs should look into.

No we should not.

Thankfully it was closed awhile back - ask that man Dodds

[Mellow Hibee]

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Yep I know that. Similar schemes were operated by several current English Premiership & Championship clubs.

However chucking more money at this Rangers thing is wasting everyone's time and the public purse doesn't deserve any more of this.

Just to be clear, the football clubs which were using EBT's make up a tiny minority of the companies that HMRC are going after. This isn't about football clubs (though they did go after Rangers and of course they aren't a fan of the football creditors rule).

In terms of unfairness and abuse of the system to make the wealthy wealthier, this is pretty bad. I personally hope that they appeal right to the lords if they are able to, and if they lose there then they pick another case and approach it from a different angle.

[ballengeich]

From what I understand, this verdict, like the FTTT judgment isn't entirely one-sided. The bulk of the HMRC appeal has been disallowed, but the I think the UTTT judge has directed some cases back to the lower tier for reassessment. Does anyone know if HMRC can go to a further appeal now, or do they have to wait for the revised UTTT result?

There was already some tax due after the FTTT verdict, but the media announced the news as if Rangers had been entirely cleared of liability. Expect a similar distortion in the papers tomorrow. There's also been a suggestion that Collyer-Bristow have had to make a large sum available to the creditors of the old club so Hun fury will be greater than ever.

[CropleyWasGod]

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From what I understand, this verdict, like the FTTT judgment isn't entirely one-sided. The bulk of the HMRC appeal has been disallowed, but the I think the UTTT judge has directed some cases back to the lower tier for reassessment. Does anyone know if HMRC can go to a further appeal now, or do they have to wait for the revised UTTT result?

There was already some tax due after the FTTT verdict, but the media announced the news as if Rangers had been entirely cleared of liability. Expect a similar distortion in the papers tomorrow. There's also been a suggestion that Collyer-Bristow have had to make a large sum available to the creditors of the old club so Hun fury will be greater than ever.

You're right about it not being a clear "win", and that some of the issues have been sent back to the FTTT. If, as seems likely, those decisions go in favour of HMRC, that will put a dent (no idea how much) in the liquidation pot.

I have no idea if HMRC can take the remaining case to the Lords. Nothing has been mentioned in the media, unsurprisingly.

I didn't know about the CB thing. BDO were suing them, so perhaps they've come to a settlement?

[Keith_M]

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You're right about it not being a clear "win", and that some of the issues have been sent back to the FTTT. If, as seems likely, those decisions go in favour of HMRC, that will put a dent (no idea how much) in the liquidation pot.

I have no idea if HMRC can take the remaining case to the Lords. Nothing has been mentioned in the media, unsurprisingly.

I didn't know about the CB thing. BDO were suing them, so perhaps they've come to a settlement?

HMRC are considering an appeal

[CraigHibee]

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HMRC are considering an appeal

i hope they get it and win, always someone else's fault with that great dirty unwashed mob!

[Ozyhibby]

It does not matter one jot as they were liquidated.

[bighairyfaeleith]

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It does not matter one jot as they were liquidated.

Exactly that club no longer exists. The fact the died for no good reason makes it even funnier.

[stoneyburn hibs]

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The UK or Scottish establishment doesn't give a **** about a stupid Glasgow football team that ran up debts and became persona non grata in the post new Labour luvvie environment due to the behaviour of its fans & their bigotry. The Establishment never lifted a finger to help Rangers. Unlike Hearts where you had the first Minister of Scotland pressurising the Lithuanian Ambassador etc.

Rangers always have and will continue to have the erm most favours handed out to them.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Their supporters feel they have been hard done by. Now, what I don't understand and hopefully one of the intelligentsia will be along to assist, but if the judges have ruled that the EBTs were indeed loans why don't the hun just get them all to repay them? This would surely fix all their money problems.

[bighairyfaeleith]

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Their supporters feel they have been hard done by. Now, what I don't understand and hopefully one of the intelligentsia will be along to assist, but if the judges have ruled that the EBTs were indeed loans why don't the hun just get them all to repay them? This would surely fix all their money problems.

Because they no longer exist, you can't pay back money to a dead man. Rangers are dead.

[BH Hibs]

Cue the mock outrage and we did nothing wrong witchhunt from them and their pals in the MSM. Every bit as paranoid as the other shower from the weedj.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Because they no longer exist, you can't pay back money to a dead man. Rangers are dead.

"They" do still exist. The company that formerly owned the football club is still "in liquidation", which will continue until that process is complete.

BDO, as liquidators, are currently suing the club's former lawyers for £30m. If that succeeds, then yes, the money will be paid to your "dead man."

[CropleyWasGod]

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It does not matter one jot as they were liquidated.

It does matter.

If the appeal succeeds, and HMRC have the resulting authority to pursue other companies, UK plc could be quids in.

And, they're not yet liquidated.

[ballengeich]

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Their supporters feel they have been hard done by. Now, what I don't understand and hopefully one of the intelligentsia will be along to assist, but if the judges have ruled that the EBTs were indeed loans why don't the hun just get them all to repay them? This would surely fix all their money problems.

The new Hun incarnation is an entirely separate business from the one which was put into liquidation in 2012, so if any loans are ever repaid (don't hold your breath) the money would go into the trusts set up by the old club. The trusts were even separate from the old club so repayments wouldn't even benefit the creditors of the old club.

The club now operating out of Ibrox has no entitlement to anything relating to EBTs.

[bighairyfaeleith]

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"They" do still exist. The company that formerly owned the football club is still "in liquidation", which will continue until that process is complete.

BDO, as liquidators, are currently suing the club's former lawyers for £30m. If that succeeds, then yes, the money will be paid to your "dead man."

Will the dead man pass it on to the rangers? No so who gives a ****. Rangers are dead, if they end up rich in death it won't help them

[bighairyfaeleith]

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It does matter.

If the appeal succeeds, and HMRC have the resulting authority to pursue other companies, UK plc could be quids in.

And, they're not yet liquidated.

No but they are no longer a functioning football club. The two are not connected because they chose to run and hide.

[Ozyhibby]

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It does matter.

If the appeal succeeds, and HMRC have the resulting authority to pursue other companies, UK plc could be quids in.

And, they're not yet liquidated.

That may matter more on the 'Tax payers alliance' forum. On a football forum, people are only really interested on the effect on the football team. In this case it's none because the old Rangers are dead.
:-)

[CropleyWasGod]

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Will the dead man pass it on to the rangers? No so who gives a ****. Rangers are dead, if they end up rich in death it won't help them

As a taxpayer, I give one. The money will be passed on to me.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-28957732


HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) has been granted permission to appeal against a tax ruling over Rangers Football Club's use of employee benefit trusts (EBTs).



The ongoing tax claim has no impact on the current Rangers owners.


so who would a successful appeal have an impact on former players ?

[CropleyWasGod]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-28957732


HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) has been granted permission to appeal against a tax ruling over Rangers Football Club's use of employee benefit trusts (EBTs).



The ongoing tax claim has no impact on the current Rangers owners.


so who would a successful appeal have an impact on former players ?

It would have no impact on the former players.

It would have an impact on:-

1. the liquidation of the old owners of Rangers. A successful outcome would mean more of a payout to HMRC, and less to the other (smalle) creditors).

2. it would help HMRC in their actions in similar EBT cases against other companies.

[Spike Mandela]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-28957732


HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) has been granted permission to appeal against a tax ruling over Rangers Football Club's use of employee benefit trusts (EBTs).



The ongoing tax claim has no impact on the current Rangers owners.


so who would a successful appeal have an impact on former players ?

Forget Rangers, forget Sevco, forget football even. Rich men, powerful men and institutions were earning money beyond our wildest dreams and paying less tax than honest hard working people. HMRC need to keep their teeth into this like a pitbull.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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It would have no impact on the former players.


well that's a bummer, billy dodds (amongst a host of others) will be happy chappy's :(

It would have an impact on:-

1. the liquidation of the old owners of Rangers. A successful outcome would mean more of a payout to HMRC, and less to the other (smalle) creditors).

2. it would help HMRC in their actions in similar EBT cases against other companies.

let's hope they reverse the scoreline from the previous round