Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[theonlywayisup]

No point in complaining to STV. Better to direct as many complaints as possible to Ofcom. Section 5 in their document refers to Due impartiality and due accuracy and undue prominence of views and opinions.

This guidance below relates to the Ofcom Broadcasting Code (February 2011) and applies to all programmes broadcast on or after 28 February 2011.

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bro...nce/bguidance/

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bin...3/section5.pdf

[theonlywayisup]

Re The Rangers getting a vote in the decision of whether they are allowed into the SPL or not, are we sure that they will get a vote? Who has confirmed this in the media?

The reason why I ask is that Green is quoted as saying "The big challenge is that as we sit here today we are no longer in the SPL. We’re not a member of the SFA. We’re a newco who are applying – and letters have gone off already to the SPL and the SFA – asking them to consider the transfer of the shares to allow us to become members." So as I read that I would be surprised if they get a vote as they are not now in the SPL. I am sure that Rod is on the case!

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ears-1-2353744

[Onion]

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Toe curlingly bad programme which is like an advert for promoting Rangers with no dissenting voices present. Pathetic.

I started watching but could only stomach 15 mins. It was the most one side piece of blatant propaganda I think I've ever seen on TV.

[Onion]

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Celtic's fans would have their directors head's if they voted yes. Their fans say that they can live without Rangers and want them gone, so Celtic I'm going to put down as a No to Newco along with Hibs, Utd. and Aberdeen. I think that Well might vote No too, as their fans have made rumblings about not getting STs/returning them if the chairman votes Yes. It's far too tight for my liking at the moment, as we've almost certainly got 4 'No' votes off the bat. Hearts are on the fence, I hope the Hearts fans let their club know their feelings on this situation (I'd like to think that they would want the club to vote 'No') and threaten them with return/non-purchase of season tickets if they vote Yes. Even though we may not see eye to eye, I would hope the Hibernian fans who are opposed to a Newco may join forces with the Hearts fans opposed to a Newco, as a resounding 'No' from the fans of both Edinburgh teams would surely be enough to make clubs sit up and take notice.

Whichever way this goes, this will rip Scottish Football apart. It is obvious that the only sensible answer is if Newco to volunteer to start again in Div 3 - taking away any decision to be made by the Chairmen. It is the right thing to do for all concerned. But sadly, when was the last time the Huns did the right thing ?

[R'Albin]

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Aberdeen will surely be more encouraged by their fans to vote no after the Rangers historian had a dig at them regarding sporting integrity .

I severely doubt Stewart Milne gives a toss about what anybody say about Abereen. The only reason that he will, IMO, vote no is that there will be a massive boycott from the fans.

[Pete]

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I started watching but could only stomach 15 mins. It was the most one side piece of blatant propaganda I think I've ever seen on TV.

The old celtic guy was great value. He was going on about how rangers should stay in the SPL for a while...only then to suddenly come out with the condition that they should be stripped of all their titles and cups!

He sounded like an old man who had downed one too many nips.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Re The Rangers getting a vote in the decision of whether they are allowed into the SPL or not, are we sure that they will get a vote? Who has confirmed this in the media?

The reason why I ask is that Green is quoted as saying "The big challenge is that as we sit here today we are no longer in the SPL. We’re not a member of the SFA. We’re a newco who are applying – and letters have gone off already to the SPL and the SFA – asking them to consider the transfer of the shares to allow us to become members." So as I read that I would be surprised if they get a vote as they are not now in the SPL. I am sure that Rod is on the case!

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...ears-1-2353744

~And you have hit the nail on the head as to why The Rangers (Charles Green) should not be allowed to vote on their entry into the SPL, because they are not in the SPL and are applying to the SPL.

[bighairyfaeleith]

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~And you have hit the nail on the head as to why The Rangers (Charles Green) should not be allowed to vote on their entry into the SPL, because they are not in the SPL and are applying to the SPL.

It's a technicality, but he isn't allowed to vote, duff and phelps get the vote as rangers plc administrators, there vote should be cast in the best interests of the creditors, but it won't be

[Caversham Green]

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What's your latest view on the "assets", Cav? Do you think the property is in there?

Sorry, I was out last night and didn't see this till now.

I've never been entirley convinced about my own interpretation here, but the Estimated Outcome Statement really couldn't be clearer - the properties are excluded from the £5.5m price. I've noticed that the bracket round the other assets is hand drawn (very professional) and is carefully drawn up short of the properties, so it's not a typo or drafting error, it's deliberate. Getting something like that wrong would be a sacking offence in most of the places I've worked, but I'm pretty sure they all had more professional dignity than Duff & Phelps. Your arguments earlier on in the thread are also very convincing but....

The fact that the proposal makes no mention of what will happen to the properties means that if my interpretation is right the document is incomplete and does not give a true picture of the choices facing the creditors to the extent that it is wilfully misleading. In addition pretty much everything that's been said so far suggests the properties have gone across and general logic would also suggest that (that's not a strong argument in this case though).

So I remain not entirely convinced either way, but if I was a creditor I would have requested clarification in writing to myself and all other creditors.

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thanks Cav saved me posting as you have...

Question to think about...could the SPL share not be considered an asset? (potentially very valuable) as Any NewCo (Greens / Wattys etc) will want RFCIA to vote Yes for it...that surely has a 'value' ...presumably its D&P who have that Vote as they still Administer RFCIA and they should act in best interest of creditors....so......

The SPL share has no sell-on value, because the recipient can only receive it with the consent of the other members and the SPL as a commercial concern has no residual value. However there's nothing to prevent the other member clubs insisting that a payment be made towards the oldco liquidation fund as a condition of admitting the newco into the SPL.

[Moulin Yarns]

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It's a technicality, but he isn't allowed to vote, duff and phelps get the vote as rangers plc administrators, there vote should be cast in the best interests of the creditors, but it won't be

even then, Rangers 1872 are in liquidation, so technically no longer exist, so why would D&P or even BDO be allowed a vote when the future of oldco is already assured (DEATH)

[s.a.m]

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Sorry, I was out last night and didn't see this till now.
.....
.

Is CWG meant to handle this all by himself?

[bighairyfaeleith]

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even then, Rangers 1872 are in liquidation, so technically no longer exist, so why would D&P or even BDO be allowed a vote when the future of oldco is already assured (DEATH)

I think technically they are not in liquidation yet, that is several weeks away. Just enough time for a vote. Sure someone can confirm or deny this though??

[johnrebus]

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Whichever way this goes, this will rip Scottish Football apart. It is obvious that the only sensible answer is if Newco to volunteer to start again in Div 3 - taking away any decision to be made by the Chairmen. It is the right thing to do for all concerned. But sadly, when was the last time the Huns did the right thing ?

I don't get all the clamour to have them in Division Three.

They should be expelled completely or, at the very least, be suspended for three years.


I would prefer expelled, then the air we all breath would be that little bit cleaner.

[Caversham Green]

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CG and CWG can we say now categorically RFC's history lies with Oldco and will die with it? Legally speaking? I need a reassuring hug.

Here you go:



In legal terms it is a new club with no history, but as I posted on another thread in footballing terms it can be viewed in one of two ways:

- Either the newco is an entirely new club, in which case it has no history and no place in Scotland's top league because it is not a leading football, having never even played a game of football yet, or

- It is a continuation of the old club, which has been found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute to the extent that only match-fixing would be considered more serious and stands accused of fraudulent returns regarding players contracts - if proven, that's a far more serious offence in my view than the first one. Such a club has no place in Scotland's top league or indeed anywhere in Scottish football.

As far as I'm concerned there is no middle ground, but the second option would allow them to keep their history at least in philosophical terms. They would no longer be a football club though.

[Paisley Hibby]

[QUOTE=Caversham Green;3263827]

The fact that the proposal makes no mention of what will happen to the properties means that if my interpretation is right the document is incomplete and does not give a true picture of the choices facing the creditors to the extent that it is wilfully misleading. In addition pretty much everything that's been said so far suggests the properties have gone across and general logic would also suggest that (that's not a strong argument in this case though).

If the bit in bold is correct, who do you think D&P would have been trying to mislead and why?

[Caversham Green]

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Is CWG meant to handle this all by himself?

Funnily enough there were a couple of fellow professionals in the company and one is just getting up to speed on the Rangers case, so guess what the main topic of converation was.

[Caversham Green]

[QUOTE=Paisley Hibby;3263850]

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The fact that the proposal makes no mention of what will happen to the properties means that if my interpretation is right the document is incomplete and does not give a true picture of the choices facing the creditors to the extent that it is wilfully misleading. In addition pretty much everything that's been said so far suggests the properties have gone across and general logic would also suggest that (that's not a strong argument in this case though).

If the bit in bold is correct, who do you think D&P would have been trying to mislead and why?

Undoubtedly they would be trying to mislead the creditors to convince them to accept the CVA. If the properties were included in the newco option at any reasonable value then that option becomes far more attractive to creditors than the CVA.

[StevieC]

Property?

Is it conceivable that Craig Whyte will own the property upon liquidation and he had entered into a pre-liquidation agreement with Green? Ticketus have also taken a step back which leads me to believe, rightly or wrongly, that they may have some sort of post liquidation deal for season tickets if there is some sort of Green & Whyte collaboration?

It just seems strange that there is so much uncertaintity surrounding the ownwrship of Ibrox, especially given how cozy the relationship between D&P and Green and Whyte seems to have been.

[AllyT]

Why don't Rangers just apply to join the English Conference North? Everyone wins then, we get rid of them and they fulfill their dream of playing in Engerland.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Property?

Is it conceivable that Craig Whyte will own the property upon liquidation and he had entered into a pre-liquidation agreement with Green? Ticketus have also taken a step back which leads me to believe, rightly or wrongly, that they may have some sort of post liquidation deal for season tickets if there is some sort of Green & Whyte collaboration?

It just seems strange that there is so much uncertaintity surrounding the ownwrship of Ibrox, especially given how cozy the relationship between D&P and Green and Whyte seems to have been.

If, big IF as we've discussed, the property is still in the OldCo, the liquidation process would put it up for sale in the open market. CW may have his eyes on it, but 1. so might others 2. does he have the cash, especially given that Ticketus are now after him personally?

[Paisley Hibby]

[QUOTE=Caversham Green;3263852]

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Undoubtedly they would be trying to mislead the creditors to convince them to accept the CVA. If the properties were included in the newco option at any reasonable value then that option becomes far more attractive to creditors than the CVA.

Sorry, still trying to understand. Are you saying that the document may have been written in a way that would lead the creditors to think that the property was not included in the £5.5m Newco purchase but in fact it was?

I can't believe that D&P would think they could get away with that or that the main creditors' advisers would be taken in by it - especially as Green has been claiming since before the CVA vote that the Newco would still play at Ibrox.

[ancienthibby]

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If, big IF as we've discussed, the property is still in the OldCo, the liquidation process would put it up for sale in the open market. CW may have his eyes on it, but 1. so might others 2. does he have the cash, especially given that Ticketus are now after him personally?

Via his front man, Yorkie bar??

[dangermouse]

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Why don't Rangers just apply to join the English Conference North? Everyone wins then, we get rid of them and they fulfill their dream of playing in Engerland.

Because they don't want them either. There are links further back in this thread to support my claim.

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=Paisley Hibby;3263916]

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Sorry, still trying to understand. Are you saying that the document may have been written in a way that would lead the creditors to think that the property was not included in the £5.5m Newco purchase but in fact it was?

I can't believe that D&P would think they could get away with that or that the main creditors' advisers would be taken in by it - especially as Green has been claiming since before the CVA vote that the Newco would still play at Ibrox.

The very fact that you don't understand.... and that I am swithering, and that Cav is sitting on the fence so much he has splinters in his erse .... is indicative of how crucial this question is. No Fricker has asked the question publicly yet!!

I do hope that my former employers at BDO are on this. They will be, won't they? We can't be the only ones talking about his, can we?

[ScottB]

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Because they don't want them either. There are links further back in this thread to support my claim.

Also their recent 'Operation let's **** off FIFA / UEFA as much as possible' would surely render the governing bodies a tad reluctant to sanction their moving into a different countries league.

[Caversham Green]

[QUOTE=Paisley Hibby;3263916]

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Sorry, still trying to understand. Are you saying that the document may have been written in a way that would lead the creditors to think that the property was not included in the £5.5m Newco purchase but in fact it was?

I can't believe that D&P would think they could get away with that or that the main creditors' advisers would be taken in by it - especially as Green has been claiming since before the CVA vote that the Newco would still play at Ibrox.

I'm actually saying the opposite of that. The Estimated Outcome Statement shows very clearly that the property is not included in the sale to newco, but the document as a whole and subsequent comments by D&P and others give the impression that the property is included. If the EOS part is not a mistake then D&P have been working very hard to convince creditors that a CVA was the best possible outcome whilst not revealing the whole story - that the properties were not a part of the Newco settlement.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Just watched the Newsnight Scotland programme, unfortunately we never learnt anything new, although, thankfully, it was a lot more professional and balanced than the STV nonsense.
Jim Spence at least had his finger on the pulse re fans of other SPL teams, the big question is Will we be listened to?

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=Caversham Green;3263931]

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I'm actually saying the opposite of that. The Estimated Outcome Statement shows very clearly that the property is not included in the sale to newco, but the document as a whole and subsequent comments by D&P and others give the impression that the property is included. If the EOS part is not a mistake then D&P have been working very hard to convince creditors that a CVA was the best possible outcome whilst not revealing the whole story - that the properties were not a part of the Newco settlement.

The more I read it, Cav, the more I am convinced that the latter is the case.

BUT... and this is the most frustrating thing for me... NO ONE is asking the question!!

[ancienthibby]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3263925]

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The very fact that you don't understand.... and that I am swithering, and that Cav is sitting on the fence so much he has splinters in his erse .... is indicative of how crucial this question is. No Fricker has asked the question publicly yet!!

I do hope that my former employers at BDO are on this. They will be, won't they? We can't be the only ones talking about his, can we?

Surmising a bit on this, Mr Croppers, would this not allow the Yorkie man to walk away, Watty to sail in and be the great hero, whom the SFA/SPL would never inflict any punishment on ever

Is this what the Scottish fans (excepting huns) want??

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=ancienthibby;3263936]

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Surmising a bit on this, Mr Croppers, would this not allow the Yorkie man to walk away, Watty to sail in and be the great hero, whom the SFA/SPL would never inflict any punishment on ever

Is this what the Scottish fans (excepting huns) want??

Yes, but the property would still be in the old company.... leaving it open to purchase by someone who had no intention of using it as a football stadium.