Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Part/Time Supporter]

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Alex Thomson tweeting a lot about Alex Salmond phoning HMRC and discussing RFC information only obtained using freedom of information. Holyrood refusing to discuss what was said as 'it would prejudice relations between London/Edin govts' hmmmmmm.

Salmond said that he had been in meetings with HMRC asking them to do a deal at the same time he said that Celtic couldn't prosper without Rangers. The (Scottish) media focused on the second part.

[Dashing Bob S]

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Salmond said that he had been in meetings with HMRC asking them to do a deal at the same time he said that Celtic couldn't prosper without Rangers. The (Scottish) media focused on the second part.

Every time I start to tolerate Salmond, he makes a proper *rse of himself by trying to save vile, spoiled, selfish, mismanaged, fascist footballing organizations.

Leave well alone, Eck.

[grunt]

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Salmond said that he had been in meetings with HMRC asking them to do a deal ...

So is this our First Minister actively supporting the non-payment of PAYE/NI and VAT, and the avoidance of tax on EBTs and associated penalties?

[marinello59]

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So is this our First Minister actively supporting the non-payment of PAYE/NI and VAT, and the avoidance of tax on EBTs and associated penalties?

I wouldn't be surprised if he was. He has nothing to lose by letting the Westminster coffers take a hit and there are votes to be gained.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I wouldn't be surprised if he was. He has nothing to lose by letting the Westminster coffers take a hit and there are votes to be gained.

And lost.

[Keith_M]

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So is this our First Minister actively supporting the non-payment of PAYE/NI and VAT, and the avoidance of tax on EBTs and associated penalties?

He probably sees this as an opportunity to win over some of the Unionist vote. He's a politcian, I'm surprised anybody expects anything better.

[Keith_M]

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And lost.

are you not at work either, ya lazy b*gger?

[Part/Time Supporter]

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So is this our First Minister actively supporting the non-payment of PAYE/NI and VAT, and the avoidance of tax on EBTs and associated penalties?

The meeting would have been before everyone became aware that Rangers had dodged their monthly contributions under Whyte. The EBT issue is still contested.

[marinello59]

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And lost.

True. But love him or loathe the smug Yam loving tumshie heided git* he is one of the smartest polical operators around. He will know if he faces a net gain or loss of votes.

* I won't say which camp I fall in to.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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True. But love him or loathe the smug Yam loving tumshie heided git* he is one of the smartest polical operators around. He will know if he faces a net gain or loss of votes.

* I won't say which camp I fall in to.

Hence why he has gone quiet on the issue since the full scale of Whyte's mismanagement has become plain to see. The state can't do deals with businesses that treat their ongoing contributions as an optional extra. The EBT issue is more open to negotiation because of its complexity. HMRC previously did an EBT deal with Arsenal, who (unlike Rangers) had enough free cashflow to satisfy them.

(source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...wsstory.sport9)

[Hibrandenburg]

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are you not at work either, ya lazy b*gger?

Cheeky ****er! I'll have you know I'm sat at home by the phone waiting to spring into action in the name of the proletariat should my capitalist pig of an employer seek to oppress them.

;-)

[Keith_M]

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Cheeky ****er! I'll have you know I'm sat at home by the phone waiting to spring into action in the name of the proletariat should my capitalist pig of an employer seek to oppress them.

;-)

Fair enough.


I'm taking a sickie, so not as impressive as your excuse.


In the words of Winston from Still Game, "Arse oan the Pan, Hied ower the sink, baith ends gaun full tilt".

Too much detail perhaps?

[Hibrandenburg]

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Fair enough.


I'm taking a sickie, so not as impressive as your excuse.


In the words of Winston from Still Game, "Arse oan the Pan, Hied ower the sink, baith ends gaun full tilt".

Too much detail perhaps?

Arrrgh, Kopfkino! Gute Besserung :-)

[Keith_M]

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Arrrgh, Kopfkino! Gute Besserung :-)

Vielen Dank

[StevieC]

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The EBT issue is more open to negotiation because of its complexity. HMRC previously did an EBT deal with Arsenal, who (unlike Rangers) had enough free cashflow to satisfy them.

(source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...wsstory.sport9)

I never clicked the link, but from seeing this previously I kinda got the impression that HMRC were happy to take a reduced lump sum rather than take an untested case through the courts.

In the case of Rangers though it seems that they have opted to finally use this as the test case which will set the precedence for all future EBT claims.

[grunt]

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The meeting would have been before everyone became aware that Rangers had dodged their monthly contributions under Whyte. The EBT issue is still contested.

Good points, both.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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I never clicked the link, but from seeing this previously I kinda got the impression that HMRC were happy to take a reduced lump sum rather than take an untested case through the courts.

In the case of Rangers though it seems that they have opted to finally use this as the test case which will set the precedence for all future EBT claims.

I think the precedent idea with EBTs is a myth, because no two organisations will have operated their schemes in exactly the same way. If Rangers had operated their scheme appropriately, there wouldn't be a tribunal. HMRC are trying to claw back the amount of PAYE they think should have been due on certain payments. It's a substantial amount (tens of millions), which Rangers can't afford. That's all.

[Peevemor]

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I think the precedent idea with EBTs is a myth, because no two organisations will have operated their schemes in exactly the same way. If Rangers had operated their scheme appropriately, there wouldn't be a tribunal. HMRC are trying to claw back the amount of PAYE they think should have been due on certain payments. It's a substantial amount (tens of millions), which Rangers can't afford. That's all.

From what I gather, if there is paperwork/contracts guaranteeing people payments from the EBT (as opposed to discretionary open-ended loans) then the huns are goosed.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I think the precedent idea with EBTs is a myth, because no two organisations will have operated their schemes in exactly the same way. If Rangers had operated their scheme appropriately, there wouldn't be a tribunal. HMRC are trying to claw back the amount of PAYE they think should have been due on certain payments. It's a substantial amount (tens of millions), which Rangers can't afford. That's all.

The Arsenal case is a red (with fetching white sleeves) herring I think. Arsenal made provision to pay backdated tax to HMRC based on EBT related rulings versus other companies. In particular this one I think: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/practitioners...d-v-dextra.htm

The Hun case stretches back to 2001, HMRC reckon they underpaid by £24M. With interest and penalties this is likely to be north of £50M now.

[ScottB]

I want HMRC to do a deal and so should we all!

If they don't, Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.

If HMRC do a deal, say £5million a year back over a decade, the taxpayer is reimbursed and Rangers weakened for a long time.


I know which one I'm routing for.

[green glory]

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I want HMRC to do a deal and so should we all!

If they don't, Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.

If HMRC do a deal, say £5million a year back over a decade, the taxpayer is reimbursed and Rangers weakened for a long time.

I know which one I'm routing for.

Complete extinction is my preference. May they burn in hell.

[dangermouse]

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I want HMRC to do a deal and so should we all!

If they don't, Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.

If HMRC do a deal, say £5million a year back over a decade, the taxpayer is reimbursed and Rangers weakened for a long time.

I know which one I'm routing for.

Nice idea but then nothing can be done about the SPL voting structure

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Complete extinction is my preference. May they burn in hell.

Best option, Ross County become the 12th member and join with the other 10 for an 11-1 vote in favour of changing the status quo.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.

Another popular media myth.

HMRC get whatever can be realised from selling the Huns' assets (after CW gets his secured mitts up to the level of whatever debt he can legally make stick).

[jgl07]

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He probably sees this as an opportunity to win over some of the Unionist vote. He's a politcian, I'm surprised anybody expects anything better.

That will certainly win over the union flag waving, Rule Brittania singing hoards to the 'Independence' platform.

[Green Man]

Chris McLaughlin just put a couple of tweets out:

#Rangers administrators confirm HMRC bill could be £75m

#Rangers owe £55m to unsecured creditors. Looks like final creditors bill could be as high as £135m.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Chris McLaughlin just put a couple of tweets out:

Thats terrible news if true.

[Green Man]

And another one:

#Rangers bill for administrators so far is £1.2m.

Keep up the good work D&P

[Andy74]

Send her victorious....!

Mon the HMRC!

[StevieC]

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I want HMRC to do a deal and so should we all!
If they don't, Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.
If HMRC do a deal, say £5million a year back over a decade, the taxpayer is reimbursed and Rangers weakened for a long time.

If "the deal" involved paying the full amount back over time then yes it would benefit everyone.

The problem is that "the deal" being pushed is not one for repayment in full but a full repayment of a minimal amount, ie only paying 5% of total owed.

It's this that the Blue Knights are basing their business plan around. If they are forced to pay the full amount, even over time, they will take the liquidation route.

[robinp]

The proposal document has been on the website since early afternoon. Makes interesting reading!