Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Smartie]

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The Morelos / Milan story originated from Italian media.

Aye, from Giacomo Traynore.

[Saturday Boy]

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Aye, from Giacomo Traynore.

Carlo Collodi, more like.

[Smartie]

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Carlo Collodi, more like.

I had to google that one, but I like it.

[Eyrie]

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Pensions are taxable. You get tax relief when you put money into a pension (as an incentive to save) but pension income is taxed like any other income.

ISAs are funded with money that has already been taxed. You just don't pay any tax on the gain.

So, pensions and ISAs aren't tax avoidance at all.

Of course they are.

I put money into an ISA rather than a normal bank account so that I don't need to pay tax. I know people who pay into a pension scheme to reduce their tax bill now and save tax in the long run (41% relief on the contributions and pay tax at 20/21% when they take the pension). I know businesses who buy a new piece of machinery to get the tax relief and trade in the current item which works fine.

My point remains that there is nothing wrong with tax avoidance when the tax system is written to encourage certain behaviours by providing a tax saving.

The problem arises when smart alecs try to exploit a gap between the wording and the intent of the legislation. They don't all get caught like Huns RIP did.

Anyway, this is in danger of getting political, so I'll bow out now.

[Alan62]

No need to bow out. The key word is ‘avoidance’. ISAs and pensions are tax-efficient rather than tax avoidance.

It isn’t just semantics either. As I pointed out both are part of the taxation chain. For it to be tax avoidance, your money has to be removed from taxation altogether - either legally or otherwise.


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[lapsedhibee]

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No need to bow out. The key word is ‘avoidance’. ISAs and pensions are tax-efficient rather than tax avoidance.

It isn’t just semantics either. As I pointed out both are part of the taxation chain. For it to be tax avoidance, your money has to be removed from taxation altogether - either legally or otherwise.

Such as putting it in an ISA.

[Alan62]

Eh, naw. The money you put into the ISA has already been subject to the rules of income tax.


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[lapsedhibee]

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Eh, naw. The money you put into the ISA has already been subject to the rules of income tax.


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If I put money into an ISA, at the end of the year I get more money added to it, which has not been subject to tax. If I take the interest and put it into another ISA, this second ISA is wholly funded by money which has not been subject to tax. Saying it is 'subject to the rules of income tax' does not disguise the fact that it is wholly untaxed.

[southsider]

Each person is allowed only 1 cash ISA.

[lapsedhibee]

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Each person is allowed only 1 cash ISA.

Not so.

[green day]

......anyway, back on topic from this pish about ISAs

Check this wee beauty out -

https://twitter.com/debbie_napier/st...358237184?s=19

[malcolm]

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Not so.

Well I suppose you could take out 20,000 cash ISAs in a year if you put a £1 in each.

ISAs whether cash or stocks & shares have an annual limit. The investment comes from a taxed environment into a tax free one - it is tax efficient and a govt arrangement. There used to be a clear difference between evasion and avoidance with the former criminal and the latter considered good planning.

Things have moved on due not in the least to contrived, connived and artificial arrangements with the sole purpose of escaping fair taxation. Tax avoidance schemes are now reportable to HMRC so that the likes of dodgy EBTs from dodgy employers should not happen again. The propensity of greedy millionaire celebrities and footballers etc , to invest in film funding LLPs designed to create tax relief rather than produce films, demonstrates the reprehensible view that tax is for the poor to pay and not the rich. Personally I’d say it demonstrates greed and a lack of morals or principles.

[lapsedhibee]

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The investment comes from a taxed environment into a tax free one

Not if you use the proceeds of a previous ISA to start a new one it doesn't. In that case it comes from an untaxed environment into a tax free one.

ISAs started in 1999 and for the first ten years were paying a much higher interest rate than they are now (although annual maximums were much lower). If you have paid in the maximum allowed every year since 1999, you will by now have quite a lot of money which has come from an untaxed environment.

[weecounty hibby]

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......anyway, back on topic from this pish about ISAs

Check this wee beauty out -

https://twitter.com/debbie_napier/st...358237184?s=19

So are they now doing fundraisers? How are the MSM not picking up on this. Sounds like they are in deep deep ****. 🤞🤞🤞

[Brummie_Hibs]

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So are they now doing fundraisers? How are the MSM not picking up on this. Sounds like they are in deep deep ****. 🤞🤞🤞

I think it is a show/play about Rangers. I saw a poster for it when I was in Glasgow last week.

[hibbyfraelibby]

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Not if you use the proceeds of a previous ISA to start a new one it doesn't. In that case it comes from an untaxed environment into a tax free one.

ISAs started in 1999 and for the first ten years were paying a much higher interest rate than they are now (although annual maximums were much lower). If you have paid in the maximum allowed every year since 1999, you will by now have quite a lot of money which has come from an untaxed environment.

Are you sure about 1999? My pal Sandra has a sister called Isa and she was born in 1953...

[Bostonhibby]

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Are you sure about 1999? My pal Sandra has a sister called Isa and she was born in 1953...

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[malcolm]

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Not if you use the proceeds of a previous ISA to start a new one it doesn't. In that case it comes from an untaxed environment into a tax free one.

ISAs started in 1999 and for the first ten years were paying a much higher interest rate than they are now (although annual maximums were much lower). If you have paid in the maximum allowed every year since 1999, you will by now have quite a lot of money which has come from an untaxed environment.

No it will all have come from a taxed environment and grown in a tax free one. To move to a new one you are simply then moving monies that originated in a taxed environment from one wrapper to another. It is like moving your car to a new parking spot - it is NOT a new car.

Moving wrappers or cumulatively adding to the same wrapper, assuming the same interest rate, has the same result in a cash ISA. You have moved monies from a taxed environment into a tax efficient one where the growth is not taxed. The money you put in a cash ISA comes from your net taxed income or your capital as subject (within the allowances) to for example to CGT or IGT. It is all from a taxed environment.

Anyway that the taxman has looked less than kindly to avoidance has given us this thread that I’m hoping will offer up a lot more interest to come than currently paid from your average cash ISA. Which is my last word on ISAs

[The Wireless]

I wonder what kind of figure Sevco will be hit with from Astley? Are there any estimates going around ?

[lapsedhibee]

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No it will all have come from a taxed environment and grown in a tax free one. To move to a new one you are simply then moving monies that originated in a taxed environment from one wrapper to another. It is like moving your car to a new parking spot - it is NOT a new car.

Moving wrappers or cumulatively adding to the same wrapper, assuming the same interest rate, has the same result in a cash ISA. You have moved monies from a taxed environment into a tax efficient one where the growth is not taxed. The money you put in a cash ISA comes from your net taxed income or your capital as subject (within the allowances) to for example to CGT or IGT. It is all from a taxed environment.

Anyway that the taxman has looked less than kindly to avoidance has given us this thread that I’m hoping will offer up a lot more interest to come than currently paid from your average cash ISA. Which is my last word on ISAs

To argue that the tax-free interest on an ISA has come from a taxed environment is like saying that cash-in-hand for a building job is from a taxed environment because the homeowner is paying it out of his PAYEd wages. Ditto the money that Govey pays for his coke. All money is legit.

[lapsedhibee]

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Are you sure about 1999? My pal Sandra has a sister called Isa and she was born in 1953...

Isa Drennan was born in 1953. Is it her?

[Keith_M]

Could you ISA obsessors take your filthy chat outside, puh-leez!

[Ronniekirk]

For those in the know about ISA s. Where can I get one that pays 3 percent or more



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[Keith_M]

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For those in the know about ISA s. Where can I get one that pays 3 percent or more



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[JohnMcM]

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For those in the know about ISA s. Where can I get one that pays 3 percent or more



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In your dreams for the time being I'm afraid.

[Ronniekirk]

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In your dreams for the time being I'm afraid.

Boris will sort it


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[Since90+2]

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For those in the know about ISA s. Where can I get one that pays 3 percent or more



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If you stick it in a decent stocks and shares ISA you could get double that or more.

Obviously need to add the caveat that they can also go down in value and past performance is no guarantee of future returns .

[hibbyfraelibby]

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Isa Drennan was born in 1953. Is it her?

No...her name is Cumming

[malcolm]

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To argue that the tax-free interest on an ISA has come from a taxed environment is like saying that cash-in-hand for a building job is from a taxed environment because the homeowner is paying it out of his PAYEd wages. Ditto the money that Govey pays for his coke. All money is legit.

You have moved your argument not so much to a new parking place but you’ve now left the car behind and are talking about the added extra alloy wheels! I never said the growth came from a taxed environment just the investment and of course we are talking about moving your own funds from one place to another not a black market under the counter cash in hand payment between 2 parties. This is most certainly my last response on this!!

[Ronniekirk]

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If you stick it in a decent stocks and shares ISA you could get double that or more.

Obviously need to add the caveat that they can also go down in value and past performance is no guarantee of future returns .

Been there tried it But prefer security of a fixed guaranteed return even if locking it away for longer period


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