Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[CropleyWasGod]

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I see that one of Craigie's businesses involves ticketing.

I smell a small furry rodent.

This bit caught my eye:-

a breach of any of the undertakings given by The Rangers FC Group in the Agreement will
result in the debt acquired being automatically extinguished. The terms on which the debt
would be extinguished are to be agreed by the parties at the relevant time.

Given that just about all of the undertakings have been breached, I am curious as to how the debt would be extinguished.

[Spike Mandela]

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I am usre this has already been asnwered but ill ask any way:

Rangers are almost certian to be liquidated.

Although the SFA would like them the newco to come straight back into the league I simply dont see the other teams agreeing to this - i would guess the 11-1 voting system would be what is used for this? and I would guess at least 3 -4 clubs would tell them to bolt (hibs, hearts, dundee utd, dunfermline *on the assumption they may be relegated) plus maybe more inverness (sure they have said this already), killi, aberdeen. therefore the SFA CANT let them in no matter how much they want it right? this also leaves open the fact none of us will get relegated and newco will have to re apply to the SFL which im sure would happen and they are left in the wilderness for a few years at least.

basically my question is do the 'experts' on here agree that this is the likely outcome or have i missed 137 pages of the same thing?

Imo the voting system will be changed in this scenario in exchange for Rangers re-entry to the SPL. Quite simply if the OF play hard ball on this then Rangers don't get entry to SPL for 3 years and the other clubs have their chance to change the voting system anyway as It will be 11 votes to Celtic's one.

[Seveno]

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http://www.channel4.com/news/we-run-...olice-sfa-boss

Alex Thompson just comes across as an utter **** in this interview.

I'm all for hard questions being asked of how this entire situation has/has been allowed to unfold, but his approach is pretty poor here.

I think that Reagan comes over very well. Disappointing that Thomson keeps flogging the dead horse of the due diligence on Whyte issue. The SFA stance has always been quite clear on this and totally correct in my opinion.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I think that Reagan comes over very well. Disappointing that Thomson keeps flogging the dead horse of the due diligence on Whyte issue. The SFA stance ad always been quite clear on this and totally correct in my opinion.

Agreed. Also like Regan's point about changing the procedure in the future, in light of all this.

[Seveno]

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This bit caught my eye:-

a breach of any of the undertakings given by The Rangers FC Group in the Agreement will
result in the debt acquired being automatically extinguished. The terms on which the debt
would be extinguished are to be agreed by the parties at the relevant time.

Given that just about all of the undertakings have been breached, I am curious as to how the debt would be extinguished.

FFS I have already told you about your need to study Yamanomics !

[CropleyWasGod]

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FFS I have already told you about your need to study Yamanomics !

Yeah yeah.... .

I suppose I am curious as to how the hell they will actually get round a table and agree.

[Keith_M]

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"Experts"....
.................... As the saying goes, you could lie 1m economists down in a line, and run over them with a steam roller, and we'd all be happy

Fixed that for you

[CropleyWasGod]

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Fixed that for you

Excellent! Cheered up my afternoon....

[AndyM_1875]

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He's not right, though. If RFC are wound up, the assets will be sold off, and HMRC will get some (possibly most) of the proceeds. Not "not a penny".

As for the future, we all know that there will be an RFC. There will be an income stream for the Treasury.

Sorry, but Young is just plain wrong, and I'm not going to get my financial information from the likes of him.

Edit.. I wasn't aware of Arsenal's experience. Do you have a link for that?

Oh agreed - El Chico is a balloon.

But let's look at the Assets first.
Ibrox - A football stadium in a dreadful part of Glasgow that unfortunately due to the Big Hoose being a listed building cannot be used for anything else. The write down account book value is about 65m. But that figure is laughable. A newco would either rent Ibrox from HMRC who may push for a sale and then get a very low offer price thrown at them. If HMRC refuse to play ball with RFC2012, they'll probably look to rent Hampden instead.

Murray Park - Green belt land. Can't be used for development. Worth little to anyone apart from Rangers.

Players - on liquidation their contracts revert to the league.

Here is some stuff on Arsenal.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...wsstory.sport9
http://2ndyellow.com/2012/glasgow-ra...premier-league

A good mate of mine is a big Arsenal fan. He said this was all dealt with quietly and behind the scenes. Arsenal paid off to the tune of about 10m. Their demand was much bigger than Rangers one.

HMRC's end goal on the BTC may not actually be getting the cash from Rangers, they know they'll never get it from Rangers as they are rooked. Rather they want precedent - the ruling. As this will allow them to chase much bigger fish in the Premiership with Liverpool and Newcastle both rumoured to be targets, plus another six clubs - all of whom may have allegedly (mis)used EBT schemes.

Worth remembering as well that HMRC's record with football clubs rivals our home form this season.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Oh agreed - El Chico is a balloon.

But let's look at the Assets first.
Ibrox - A football stadium in a dreadful part of Glasgow that unfortunately due to the Big Hoose being a listed building cannot be used for anything else. The write down account book value is about 65m. But that figure is laughable. A newco would either rent Ibrox from HMRC who may push for a sale and then get a very low offer price thrown at them. If HMRC refuse to play ball with RFC2012, they'll probably look to rent Hampden instead.

Murray Park - Green belt land. Can't be used for development. Worth little to anyone apart from Rangers.

Players - on liquidation their contracts revert to the league.

Here is some stuff on Arsenal.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...wsstory.sport9
http://2ndyellow.com/2012/glasgow-ra...premier-league

A good mate of mine is a big Arsenal fan. He said this was all dealt with quietly and behind the scenes. Arsenal paid off to the tune of about 10m. Their demand was much bigger than Rangers one.

HMRC's end goal on the BTC may not actually be getting the cash from Rangers, they know they'll never get it from Rangers as they are rooked. Rather they want precedent - the ruling. As this will allow them to chase much bigger fish in the Premiership with Liverpool and Newcastle both rumoured to be targets, plus another six clubs - all of whom have allegedly (mis)used EBT schemes.

Worth remembering as well that HMRC's record with football clubs rivals our home form this season.

I agree that the marketability of RFC's assets is low. However, they do have a value.... particularly to someone who wants to pick up the club from liquidation and start again, which has always been my "preferred option", for this lot and HMFC.

I agree about HMRC wanting the decision, rather than the cash... although, of course, they would prefer both.

I am not so sure, though, about their willingness to negotiate. I haven't read through the Arsenal stuff yet, but I am presuming that was in the "Vodafone days". They are under pressure not to do such deals now. Indeed, they CAN'T negotiate on the amount of tax due, only the amount of the penalties.

[RyeSloan]

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Oh agreed - El Chico is a balloon.

But let's look at the Assets first.
Ibrox - A football stadium in a dreadful part of Glasgow that unfortunately due to the Big Hoose being a listed building cannot be used for anything else. The write down account book value is about 65m. But that figure is laughable. A newco would either rent Ibrox from HMRC who may push for a sale and then get a very low offer price thrown at them. If HMRC refuse to play ball with RFC2012, they'll probably look to rent Hampden instead.

Murray Park - Green belt land. Can't be used for development. Worth little to anyone apart from Rangers.

Players - on liquidation their contracts revert to the league.

Here is some stuff on Arsenal.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...wsstory.sport9
http://2ndyellow.com/2012/glasgow-ra...premier-league

I assume listed buildings can have a change of use and can be developed with the correct approval...I would wager that it's incorrect to say that because it is listed nothing can happen to it and as long as the development is 'sympathetic' and has no 'adverse effects' on the character of the building then a development would be more than possible. Arsenals development of Highbury is probably a good example here.

Also what part of Ibrox is listed...probably the main stand frontage, I very much doubt any of the rest of the stands are listed so the listed part of the site will only make up a small percentage of the land.

Also Murray Park may well be on greenbelt land but again I would suggest that as their is already a development on the site in question that there will be a number of avenues that will allow a change of use/redevelopment.

[Seveno]

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Oh agreed - El Chico is a balloon.

But let's look at the Assets first.
Ibrox - A football stadium in a dreadful part of Glasgow that unfortunately due to the Big Hoose being a listed building cannot be used for anything else. The write down account book value is about 65m. But that figure is laughable. A newco would either rent Ibrox from HMRC who may push for a sale and then get a very low offer price thrown at them. If HMRC refuse to play ball with RFC2012, they'll probably look to rent Hampden instead.

Murray Park - Green belt land. Can't be used for development. Worth little to anyone apart from Rangers.

Players - on liquidation their contracts revert to the league.

Here is some stuff on Arsenal.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...wsstory.sport9
http://2ndyellow.com/2012/glasgow-ra...premier-league

A good mate of mine is a big Arsenal fan. He said this was all dealt with quietly and behind the scenes. Arsenal paid off to the tune of about 10m. Their demand was much bigger than Rangers one.

HMRC's end goal on the BTC may not actually be getting the cash from Rangers, they know they'll never get it from Rangers as they are rooked. Rather they want precedent - the ruling. As this will allow them to chase much bigger fish in the Premiership with Liverpool and Newcastle both rumoured to be targets, plus another six clubs - all of whom may have allegedly (mis)used EBT schemes.

Worth remembering as well that HMRC's record with football clubs rivals our home form this season.

It will only be part of the main stand that is listed i.e the exterior, entrance and offices etc. That still leaves plenty room for a supermarket, with the grandest entrance in the whole Tesco estate !

There was talk about swapping Murray Park with West of Scotland and building houses on the latter. Where did that one go ?

[CropleyWasGod]

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It will only be part of the main stand that is listed i.e the exterior, entrance and offices etc. That still leaves plenty room for a supermarket, with the grandest entrance in the whole Tesco estate !

There was talk about swapping Murray Park with West of Scotland and building houses on the latter. Where did that one go ?

I beg to differ. The stands have the potential to be World Heritage Sites. In years to come, school-parties and busloads of Japanese tourists will be shown around the desolate slopes, being regaled by horrific tales of obscenity, religious intolerance and ritual pape-****ging. They may, in passing, glance at the bit where men used to kick a football around.

[green glory]

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I assume listed buildings can have a change of use and can be developed with the correct approval...I would wager that it's incorrect to say that because it is listed nothing can happen to it and as long as the development is 'sympathetic' and has no 'adverse effects' on the character of the building then a development would be more than possible. Arsenals development of Highbury is probably a good example here.

Also what part of Ibrox is listed...probably the main stand frontage, I very much doubt any of the rest of the stands are listed so the listed part of the site will only make up a small percentage of the land.

Also Murray Park may well be on greenbelt land but again I would suggest that as their is already a development on the site in question that there will be a number of avenues that will allow a change of use/redevelopment.

I would reckon only the Archibald Leitch designed main stand will be listed, and then only the facade as the interior of the stand has had alterations/new roof etc when the third tier was added in the 90's. It was actually my mate's dad's company who roofed it. Funnily enough he did the first two new stands at the PBS too.

The other 3 stands we're build in 79 I think. They have a kind of Cumbernauld chic, so couldn't be listed in this or any other sane world.

The Leitch facade could be incorporated into some future development. Makes a grand tombstone though.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I would reckon only the Archibald Leitch designed main stand will be listed, and then only the facade as the interior of the stand has had alterations/new roof etc when the third tier was added in the 90's. It was actually my mate's dad's company who roofed it. Funnily enough he did the first two new stands at the PBS too.

The other 3 stands we're build in 79 I think. They have a kind of Cumbernauld chic, so couldn't be listed in this or any other sane world.

The Leitch facade could be incorporated into some future development. Makes a grand tombstone though.

Maybe it could be moved to one end of the M8. At the other would be its sister from Tynie.

Monuments to Scottish enterprise.

[AndyM_1875]

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It will only be part of the main stand that is listed i.e the exterior, entrance and offices etc. That still leaves plenty room for a supermarket, with the grandest entrance in the whole Tesco estate !

There was talk about swapping Murray Park with West of Scotland and building houses on the latter. Where did that one go ?

Heh!

This is Highbury now.
http://www.highburysquare.com/

Somehow I can't see Ibrox ending up like this. Not too much call for smashed Buckie bottles and pishing in gutters up at Highbury Square.

[green glory]

Remembering all the bigoted goons outside the big house on administration day. Will probably take the day off work for liquidation day. Crack open that bottle of single malt.

I hope I s*it my trousers laughing.

[Seveno]

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I beg to differ. The stands have the potential to be World Heritage Sites. In years to come, school-parties and busloads of Japanese tourists will be shown around the desolate slopes, being regaled by horrific tales of obscenity, religious intolerance and ritual pape-****ging. They may, in passing, glance at the bit where men used to kick a football around.

Good thinking. And the grassy bit will be called 'Ivan's land'. The kids will be told, and might even get to see a video, of a wee man in green tearing eleven dumplings in blue totally apart.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Good thinking. And the grassy bit will be called 'Ivan's land'. The kids will be told, and might even get to see a video, of a wee man in green tearing eleven dumplings in blue totally apart.

... and there will be re-enactments of that famous exchange between Mowbray and Gaz, with the legendary words of the latter "what the f's he gonnae dae, like?" on a permanent loop.

[hibs0666]

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Heh!

This is Highbury now.
http://www.highburysquare.com/

Somehow I can't see Ibrox ending up like this. Not too much call for smashed Buckie bottles and pishing in gutters up at Highbury Square.

A mate of mine lived next door to the away entrance, and he made a small fortune when Arsenal moved out.

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...ngers.17178029

Seemingly the Blue Knights bid is around £10M and depends on a CVA.

Club9's bid is £25M to buy the assets of the company following a liquidation.

A no brainer you'd think, except that the BK bid involves Ticketus, so presumably a big chunk of C9's £25M would go to them. For the other creditors the bids aren't miles apart.

My feeling is that for HMRC, a CVA says, "go ahead, cheat your taxes, we'll come to an arrangement later" whereas liquidation gives them a prominent head on a stick. Either way, the ££££s on offer are comparable so they're much more likely to go for the latter.

The "L" word is very much out in the open now.

NewHuns are coming, so it'll soon be time for us all to make a stand against them getting into the SPL. If you haven't lobbied Hibs on the subject yet, I would suggest a wee email might be in order.

[jgl07]

It appears that the end game is approaching and the only real option is liquidation.

Time is certainly not on Rangers' side. They have negotiated temporary wage reductions for the staff but this will expire at the end of the season.

Will the likes of Whittakar and Davies be able to claim breach of contract and effectively become free agents. If Rangers try and transfer them they could sit tight and refuse a move knowing that Rangers cannot afford to keep paying them. This could mean that they will be freed and will be able to get better terms as a free agent. I cannot see how Duff and Phelps could even think about selling season tickets for next year so there will be no real revenue stream after the end of the season.

They current have a home match against St Mirren and possible post split home matches against Motherwell and Dundee United. None of these appear to be money-spinners especially once Celtic are confirmed as champions.

So Rangers playing 'assets' will become a major liability at the end of the season and are not likely to be retained or to generate much transfer income. Why pay a transfer fee for a Rangers player when you can wait a few weeks and pick them up as a free agent?

Liquidating the club would resolve the issue of HMRC including the £15 million currently due and the cash probably due from the BTC and the WTC. Liquidation would also deal with Ticketus once and for all. It would deal with every other sundry creditor such as HoMFC and Dundee United. It would presumably deal with Craig Whyte unless he can substantiate his claim to be a secured creditor and take Ibrox and Murray Park.

The SPL10 would be advised to keep any Rangers Newco out the SPL so that they can force through the changes in voting pattern. This would have the added bonus of p*ssing of Celtic as well.

Get the Rangers Newco set up now and start working on a business plan for the next three years in the SFL. Then get the application for membership of Division Three prepared. The SFL clubs would love the income that two home match against Rangers for virtually all of them over the next three season.

[CropleyWasGod]

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http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...ngers.17178029

Seemingly the Blue Knights bid is around £10M and depends on a CVA.

Club9's bid is £25M to buy the assets of the company following a liquidation.

A no brainer you'd think, except that the BK bid involves Ticketus, so presumably a big chunk of C9's £25M would go to them. For the other creditors the bids aren't miles apart.

My feeling is that for HMRC, a CVA says, "go ahead, cheat your taxes, we'll come to an arrangement later" whereas liquidation gives them a prominent head on a stick. Either way, the ££££s on offer are comparable so they're much more likely to go for the latter.

The "L" word is very much out in the open now.

NewHuns are coming, so it'll soon be time for us all to make a stand against them getting into the SPL. If you haven't lobbied Hibs on the subject yet, I would suggest a wee email might be in order.

Basically, then, they are buying the properties, and the name, for £25m. Do they know they won't get the players? (if not, dinny anybody tell them.)

I think that's a good deal all round. The buyers get a decent set of assets. Ticketus get a slice. HMRC do, too, and get their sacrifice, as you say. There also will be a future business for them to leech off . The fans (like I care about them) get a fresh new, debt-free, club. And us?.... that depends, of course, on the stand, as you put it.

I'm happy with all that.. maybe Hibs.net should send the admins a bill for our sterling advisory work.

Edit... forgot one other thing. Hearts get shafted too!!

[Seveno]

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Basically, then, they are buying the properties, and the name, for £25m. Do they know they won't get the players? (if not, dinny anybody tell them.)

I think that's a good deal all round. The buyers get a decent set of assets. Ticketus get a slice. HMRC do, too, and get their sacrifice, as you say. There also will be a future business for them to leech off . The fans (like I care about them) get a fresh new, debt-free, club. And us?.... that depends, of course, on the stand, as you put it.

I'm happy with all that.. maybe Hibs.net should send the admins a bill for our sterling advisory work.

You forgot ...... Duff and Duffer get a whacking great fee for doing f*** all.

[CropleyWasGod]

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You forgot ...... Duff and Duffer get a whacking great fee for doing f*** all.

Wait until they get MY bill.

[down-the-slope]

remember in assets the most valuable one is ironically the car park - its massive (maybe as big as stadium foot print) flat and no real planning issues, with great road links to M8 / M77 & now M74 extention pretty much a stones throw away.....

An asset stripper could flog this and then clean things up still leaving the stadium & training facility (and no long term duffer player contracts) to then sell on to 'blue nose 2012' for football purposes...making a healthy wedge in he process and caring little about reduced annual income / asset reduction....

[Seveno]

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remember in assets the most valuable one is ironically the car park - its massive (maybe as big as stadium foot print) flat and no real planning issues, with great road links to M8 / M77 & now M74 extention pretty much a stones throw away.....

An asset stripper could flog this and then clean things up still leaving the stadium & training facility (and no long term duffer player contracts) to then sell on to 'blue nose 2012' for football purposes...making a healthy wedge in he process and caring little about reduced annual income / asset reduction....

Sounds like a plan for STF.

[ancienthibby]

The Final Curtain draws closer!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17568752

[StevieC]

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I think that's a good deal all round. The buyers get a decent set of assets. Ticketus get a slice. HMRC do, too, and get their sacrifice, as you say. There also will be a future business for them to leech off .

I'm not so sure that Ticketus will be so easily pleased. I suspect that even a liquidated Rangers will face lengthy court actions, especially if they are still playing at Ibrox and allowed to stay in the SPL.

[PaulSmith]

THE American frontrunners in the race to buy Rangers are prepared to pay £25 million for control of the club – but their preferred option is to put the Ibrox side into liquidation.
The bid from Chicago-based Club 9 Sports, who have been linked to Rangers director Andrew Ellis and by association shamed owner Craig Whyte, is one of three offers which, if successful, may result in the new owners taking the highly unpopular option of winding up the club and reforming it as a new company (Newco).


All taking shape now, Whyte remembered appointed Duff and Phelps