Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[JimBHibees]

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Murrays as guilty as sin. CW guilty of an almighty gamble on Cl qualification that didn't pay off. But Murray is guilty beyond belief! Of stiffing Hibs & Scottish football & basically everyone with illegal stuff that gave his vile club an advantage & players that no-one else had! Hang draw & quarter the charlatan that is Murray before anything else!

He even admitted it by saying they did the EBT scheme to buy more expensive players. You do get the impression he is untouchable.

[Moulin Yarns]

Proceedings resume. Defence Advocate DonaldFindlay QC rises to begin his address to the jury

Findlay begins by telling the jury about aclerk of the court who used to say "you can't rush these things, justiceis too important."

Findlay "The public are entitled tosee justice being done."

Findlay "In this course of this trialyou have seen witness after witness come into court and refuse to takeresponsibility for anything" "It wasnae me"

Findlay "People are clearly givingevidence on what they know now..I've never made a mistake with the benefit ofhindsight"

Findlay urges the jury to assess evidencebased on what people knew at the time. What happened later to Rangers"irrelevant"

Findlay on Crown witnesses "They aretrying to protect their place in history"

Findlay "Football is a game ofpassion, it gets you" but adds that this also is irrelevant, "isabout a company, Rangers Football Club PLC"

Findlay The two big Scottish football clubsmake a huge contribution to Scottish life" "But in the end hasnothing to do with this case"

Findlay The Advocate Depute had lot to sayabout the roles people have in court "but didn't have much to say aboutthe role of the defence

Findlay, Crown have to show there was acrime. "When the state makes an allegation against an individual​ it is upto state to prove it"

Findlay: There was no crime

Findlay "Guilt has to be proved, it'snot for the police to do that, it's not for the prosecution to do that"tells jury "It's up to you"

Findlay: The Crown approach is wrong, isunfair is unjustifiable

Findlay: 400,000 pages of evidence yetCrown focussing on 6 words. Argues "This is a revisionist view ofhistory" "That's just wrong"

Findlay "The Advocate Depute says hehas to prove his case then jumps to the end..is a semantic exercise"

[Moulin Yarns]

Findlay "Mr Whyte is not my client" says he works on instructions of solicitor


Findlay "what happens then is that the person sitting over there (points to the dock) puts his trust in me.

"He sits in the dock and is in my hands... responsibility is mine, and mine alone"

Findlay: Crown suggest Whyte was in control of everything that happened during the purchase "That is far from the case"

Notes role of lawyers, asks if you would expect a Dr to ask you for advice on treatment?

Findlay Whyte and David Murray have both been "Ill served by their advisors"

Findlay "you might wonder why trial has not lasted 12 weeks" Says after McIntyre testified "a sea change in Crown case" Says Crown tried to drive down the case to narrowest level, witnesses got "shorter and shorter... there is a lot more to it than that"

Findlay compares Crown case to trying to solve a jigsaw only looking at a few pieces.

Findlay to the jury "look at the bigger picture"

Findlay Crown case is that money was not available on date of purchase, 6 May 2011, and Whyte knew, that amounts to fraud.

Whyte was on one side and on the other "the dupe"

Findlay "There was no financial loss to Murray, not a penny piece, well I suppose you could say they lost a pound" Findlay accuses Crown witnesses of buck passing" to preserve their reputations.

Findlay says all business negotiations involve "lying to each other"

Findlay: in 2008 a financial crisis hit the whole world. "A Tsunami of financial problems hit Murray"

Findlay David Murray made two mistakes, turned out to be "catastrophic" 1 entrusted club to a board that "didn't have a clue" 2 Trusted his advisors, which was a mistake

Findlay: The big tax case liability could be £50m, £60m would have been "the end of the club"

Findlay: Mr Whyte came along and had a business plan, how practical it was not relevant

Findlay Craig Whyte painted as a pantomime villain as if everything was fine before he came. Was the "fall guy"

Findlay: Rangers was declining and no-one knew what to do. Only plan to borrow money to spend on the team. "Ludicrous"

Findlay The only questions Murray ever asked Whyte was "money?" "money?' "money?"

Findlay "Murray wasn't interested in where the money was coming from" notes words "third party resources" in purchase agreement

Adds What did Murray's lawyers ask about it? Absolutely nothing

Findlay to the jury: "The Crown are desperate for you to throw the context away"

Findlay says he will try and finish today but will not be constrained by time from doing his duty to his client. Court takes morning break

[Moulin Yarns]

Proceedings resume with Donald Findlay QCcontinuing his closing address to the jury.

Findlay: Let's start with Dorchester hotel.Says Murray was about to sign deal but walked out as involved building flats atRangers

"Why didn't the advisers check in thefirst place?"

After that experience surely lawyers wouldhave checked everything

Findlay Can I prove Murray knew aboutTicketus, I can not. Can I prove he should have known, yes I can.

"It was more important to get the dealover the line..."

Findlay notes Murray spent money marketingthe club, spent money on accountants for tax case, had Dundas and Wilson

"How much did they spend checking onMr Whyte's background? Nothing, not a penny"

Findlay to jury "You are entitled toask yourself why, why were they so inneficient?"

Findlay The alarm bells were ringing, butno-one made inquiries..not the hardest job...Murray advisors focused on gettingdeal done"

Findlay notes previous potential buyerswere checked out says McGill view on Whyte: let's tell the press about it thenlet them investigate

4 May 2011 email from David Murray (asDavid Fraser) "Need to get this over the line..no realisticalternative..nothing is perfect"

"The fallout of no deal is reallyserious"

Findlay The deal was more important thanthe detail.

Findlay, when third party funding added toagreement, "no-one batted an eyelid, no-one cared"

Findlay moves on to then Rangers chairmanAlistair Johnson. Notes his board brought in "not a penny" ofInvestment.

Findlay on Paul Murray plan "At 11thhour he put in a bid, failed for only two reasons "It was nonsense and itwas illegal" "I might be uncharitable but you would think a man fromthe financial world would know these things"

[Moulin Yarns]

Findlay recalls evidence from Walter Smith, notes he said playing squad needed to be strengthened but "the bank had had enough."


Things were very very bad, chances of European football diminishing dramatically.

Findlay: common sense tells you no-one can guarantee the result of a game of football, "you cannot just buy success"

view of Rangers board "Borrow more money, spend more money and everything would be all right. Would have meant end of Rangers Football Club

"They were driving Rangers into a train crash and nobody saw it, or nobody knew what to do."

Findlay notes that Ian McGill of Lloyd's called the Rangers board "disfunctional" in his statement to police

Says £1.7m needed for health and safety work at stadium could not have happened overnight.

Findlay "Murray wanted to sell Rangers Football Club, there came a point in time when he had to sell Rangers Football Club."

Findlay says there was an advantage to Murray from the sale of Rangers, bank would consider giving him metals business back.

That was his incentive

Findlay: "It was a con being run by people who didn't know what they were doing"

Findlay The Advocate Depute said Mr Johnson and Mr King not called as witnesses, "that's not my problem" adds up to Crown who to call

Findlay​ notes after Whyte takeover, bank was paid, stadium repaired and players brought, including current captain Lee Wallace.

"What more did they want him to do?"

Findlay : season started "unfortunately had to have a trip to Malmö, if Rangers made Champions League we probably wouldn't be here today."

Findlay Talk of intention to invest in players "PR window dressing" adds "I might have an intention to buy Juventus"

Says £5m would have bought very little in way of players "was just PR"

Court adjourns for lunch, back at 2pm

[Dashing Bob S]

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Murrays as guilty as sin. CW guilty of an almighty gamble on Cl qualification that didn't pay off. But Murray is guilty beyond belief! Of stiffing Hibs & Scottish football & basically everyone with illegal stuff that gave his vile club an advantage & players that no-one else had! Hang draw & quarter the charlatan that is Murray before anything else!

A decent start has already been made on that enterprise.

[Spike Mandela]

Is it just me but the Crown's case after such a long time in preparation seems very weak?

No 'smoking gun' evident.

[Moulin Yarns]

Findlay: The bank debt had to be paid offas part of the procedure of the deal, that was done, other obligations"future obligations"

One was "hold £5m for playingsquad" Ally McCoist testified in fact more than £5m spent on squad Findlaysays

Health and safety liability met, taxliability appealed. "Not a scrap of evidence working capital notprovided"

"the question might legitimatelyasked, why are we here?"

Findlay: evidence from after an allegedoffence can be relevant, gives example of a murderer burying a body after thecrime. (I always said DF knew where the bodies wereburied)

"The fact somebody did this maysuggest they were involved in the murder"

Findlay wether the plan to use the Ticketusmoney was a good one or a bad one is not relevant, notes paying bank debt saved£1m a year

Findlay says Whyte was willing to deal withbig tax case, notes no-one can know if his plan would work has still notconcluded

Findlay suggests that in business theresources you have included "money that is available to you"

Adds If it matters to someone where yourmoney is coming from they can ask

Findlay, Murray could have walked away atany time, they chose not to"

Findlay: Ticketus would not have done adeal with Craig Whyte if they didn't know he had the resources to back it up

Findlay says Murray had the option to lookinto the sources of funds "they chose not to, that's not Mr Whyte'sfault"

Findlay says there was a secrecy element toTicketus deal which the Crown are presenting as "sinister" Showscourt Ticketus document saying deal is for paying the bank debt. "Nothingwas hidden from Ticketus"

"That's as plain as you can get, 2+2equalling 4"

Findlay says it was Ticketus who wereinsisting deal be kept confidential as didn't want football supporters to knowof their involvement

Findlay says he can't prove Murray knewabout Ticketus deal, but the football club had dealt with them previously.

Adds Murray knew there were otherInvestors, quotes email from "Trusted advisor" Mike McGill. April2011

[Moulin Yarns]

"Interestingly DG (David Grier) let slip that this opinion was required for Craig Whytes other Investors"


Recipients of email included David Murray

Findlay "Only conceivable question was to ask 'who are other Investors..what did they do.. absolutely nothing"

a "first year law student" would have spotted this...only conclusion it didn't matter where the money came from..they didn't care

Findlay: David Murray himself sat in that witness box and said no connection with Mr Whyte..then we saw the emails..how easily people forget

Court shown note made by Alistair Johnson from 23 Nov 2010 "Octopus £15m attempt to borrow" Findlay "It's Craig Whyte he is talking about.

Court shown notes from Murray lawyer David Horne, "£25m in escrow..Octopus meeting-discussing with CW re £15m"

Findlay "Who told them Whyte was talking to Ticketus?"

Findlay "What you just say 'oh well' and do nothing about it?"

"They will spend money on fancy brochures..but when it comes to the most precious thing Murray has to sell they do nothing"

Findlay: I can't prove Murray knew about Ticketus but, I think I've proved beyond a reasonable doubt, they should have.

Only two conclusions they didn't do their job properly or they didn't care

Findlay shows court HMRC letter about "Small tax case" Nov 2010 demand is for £2.28m, interest was"running"

By time Whyte takeover bill had risen to £2.8m, Findlay "Why? No-one had done anything about it..a familiar refrain"

The hope that was "someone else would sort it out..1/2 million pounds thrown away for nothing

"The notion this club was being run properly is becoming offensive."

Findlay to jury "If I had half a million pounds I'd have a good weekend. Would still be back in court on Monday, it's my job.

Findlay "The whole thing was deteriorating, was getting worse and worse by the minute." Stadium repair bill reached £1.7m "before anyone did anything about it."

Findlay "Rangers Football Club was given away for nothing" Court takes short break

[Moulin Yarns]

Donald Findlay rises to continue defenceclosing address to the jury. "As you know her ladyship is in charge ofthis court, her word is law

Adds "I could go on all night but Imight deal.with a short chapter then take the risk of asking for anadjournment" Laughter in court

Findlay "When I was a young lawyer themantra was 'attention to detail'" It "ought to be instinctive to alawyer"

Findlay on Murray and Whyte/Ticketus deal"They knew or must have known, ..the deal was the thing"

Findlay on real world of business documentsare prepared in advance, minutes created for meetings that dont happen"

Findlay on share purchase agreement"immediately" and "unconditionally" says is "adistinction without a difference."

Findlay on bank transfers: It leaves youraccount right away, doesn't reach recipient instantaneously"

Paying Immediately means "subject tothe workings of the bank"

Findlay, when you are told about thirdparty funding is involved and you don't ask who, you are taking a risk

From the moment third party funding wasadded to the share purchase agreement Murray was "on notice"

Third party funding, by its very nature,cannot be unconditional, as a lawyer you ask for evidence

"Nobody asked about the source of themoney, the only reason could be, that didn't matter"

Findlay wishes jury a pleasant weekend,tells jury not to forget what he says but "don't dwell on it" AsksLady Stacey for an adjournment

Lady Stacey advises jury "file it allin your head..but don't make up your mind over the weekend.. please don't talkto anyone about it.

[Eyrie]

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Remember that Ticketus were a creditor in the RFC liquidation. That was for a loan that CW took out before he was the owner. Ticketus believed that he was acting on behalf of RFC, which is why they paid over the money......and why they subsequently successfully sued him.

It definitely was a loan, BTW. An advance secured on ST sales, which they "bought" at a discounted rate and recouped at the full rate.

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Cheers - that explains why I was even more confused than normal about the "purchase".

[Hibs Class]

Findlay completed his closing argument this morning - judge now doing her summing up. For twitter updates follow James Doleman (@jamesdoleman)

[Keith_M]

TBH, I think it would be a travesty if Whyte was convicted and everyone else got off scot-free. The phrase Sacrificial Lamb springs to mind.





As an aside, the term 'scot free' has nothing to do with Scotland or Scottishness, but comes from a middle-english phrase that could equally be translated as to get off "tax-free".


Spooky!

[Iain G]

Looks like they really do have no money to spend if they are fishing in the same murky transfer pool as the Hearts

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40154488

[Hibs Class]

Court finished for the day - summing up to conclude tomorrow and jury will then be sent out

[CropleyWasGod]

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Court finished for the day - summing up to conclude tomorrow and jury will then be sent out

It's not Hibs Class to just say that, without telling us all what happened today.

I've read Doleman's Tweets today, and Lady Stacey is getting right to the heart of what is important in the case. Maybe somebody smarter than me can reproduce her comments.

[SirDavidsNapper]

Where are they getting all this money? Will they never learn? 5.5million spent already. Can see the new club going the way of the old one at this rate.

[Hibs Class]

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It's not Hibs Class to just say that, without telling us all what happened today.

I've read Doleman's Tweets today, and Lady Stacey is getting right to the heart of what is important in the case. Maybe somebody smarter than me can reproduce her comments.

I know, sorry! Twitter is blocked at work and so I tried to cut and paste on my phone but didn't get past 3 or 4 tweets before I did something wrong and lost everything. Looked like an interesting summing up though, directing without leading the jury.

[silverhibee]

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It's not Hibs Class to just say that, without telling us all what happened today.

I've read Doleman's Tweets today, and Lady Stacey is getting right to the heart of what is important in the case. Maybe somebody smarter than me can reproduce her comments.

You think.

[greenginger]

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Looks like they really do have no money to spend if they are fishing in the same murky transfer pool as the Hearts

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40154488

At this rate they're going to have more Kafflics in their side than the Celtic mob.

[lapsedhibee]

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isn't it only Whyte that has been charged?
it appears to me that his defence is that other people should have done more to stop him committing an offence.

I think Craigie's defence against the fraud charge is that he's not guilty of fraud because he didn't pretend anything to the people he's alleged to have defrauded. Are we to believe that David Murray, a peer of the realm if not quite a fragrant lady, lied when he claimed to have been duped? I do, and expect Craigie to walk away from that charge.

[Deansy]

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At this rate they're going to have more Kafflics in their side than the Celtic mob.

Was just about to type the same - can't be far away from a Hun-team with NO Protestants !

Wonder what they'll sing then .............................

[Brunswickbill]

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It's not Hibs Class to just say that, without telling us all what happened today.

I've read Doleman's Tweets today, and Lady Stacey is getting right to the heart of what is important in the case. Maybe somebody smarter than me can reproduce her comments.

Oh Oh Oh to be
Smarter than CWG

Lady Stacey begins by telling the jury her role is to "explain the legal rules you need to decide the case. The jury is the judge of the facts"
All of the evidence in the joint minute of agreed facts is proven fact
On witnesses​: "it is the answer to a question that is the evidence, not the question" Speeches also not evidence
Jury must take care over some of the documents such as Alistair Johnston note, as he was never called as a witness.
Cautions the jury about note from the takeover panel, again as no witness spoke to it. "Take it for what it's worth"
Tells jury "not to be deflected...get to the heart of it." Adds "you must not be influenced by what you have read about Rangers
On judging witnesses "No-one comes into court wearing a badge saying 'I am reliable'"
Notes the Crown relied on some parts of what lawyer Gary Withey testified to, but not all of it."
Circumstantial evidence can be just as important as direct eyewitness testimony.
On Mr Holmes testimony "He wasn't around for very long, unlike some of them."
One of the issues jury has to decide is "was there a crime?" which doesn't usually happen in, for example, a murder case
No-one has to disprove the charges against them, Crown must establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt
In Scottish law nobody can be convicted on the evidence of one person alone, must be corroborated.
Mr Whyte does not have to lead evidence, he doesn't have to prove anything, can't draw inference from non-testimony.
Tells the jury to look at their copies of the indictment (sometimes called The Libel)
The key part in the first charge is Whyte pretending to Murray he had his own funds to complete transaction
Legally fraud involves making a dishonest and false pretence for some practical purpose.
Not enough to be reckless or careless about being truthful" also has to lead to a practical result
To be satisfied 1. Whyte made dishonest pretence 2. Knew what he was doing 3. Must have led to a practical result.
No direct evidence of Whyte intentions, must be inferred from his actions
Tells jury that even if no-one lost anything that, in itself, is not a defence against fraud. No need to show loss to Murray.
Crown has to show that any dishonest pretence led to the share transfer, fraud must have a practical result
Summarising the financial transaction. Whyte bought the bank debt from Lloyds for over £18m Money transferred 8 May 2011
This happened after Rangers' lent Whyte's company Wavetower​ £16m
"The bank wanted to get it's money back, and it did" adds "Played hardball"
Points to para 14.5 of the Share Purchase Agreement "which you've not heard much of" "The purchaser may waive any part of the agreement" Says is not about any duties you may have under any agreement
Notes Crown say Whyte could not receive the Ticketus money until after he owned the club
Mr Findlay says Murray knew about "third party funding" as this is written in the Share Purchase Agreement. If they wanted to find out who was funding source "all they had to do was ask."
Reminds jury that Rangers put out a sale brochure​ saying "no investment needed"
says Findlay's: "know or ought to have known" is used in civil cases. Cites a building firm not protecting staff from asbestos.
Defence position s that Murray would have sold even if they knew about Ticketus, hence no "practical result" of pretence
Directs the jury issue is not if Murray should have known, , but the practical result of pretence. "Mr Whyte does not have to prove he didn't do it."
Lady Stacey tells the jury she is moving on to Charge 2 "financial assistance" an alleged breach of the Companies Act.
Tells the jury the offence of financial assistance was created by Parliament, asks jury to look at relevant section of the act. This is believed to be the first time a jury in Scotland has been asked to deal with a financial assistance charge.
The loan from Rangers may have been unlawful as used to pay off their liability. However not a crime if done 1. In good faith or 2. Was done for the benefit of the company.
tells the jury the Crown reject financial assistance was given in good faith or was good for the company. Mr Findlay on the other hand says there was a bigger picture." Club not in a good state bank wanted money back. Was for good of company
Directs the jury that "the law requires a mental element..the person needs to know he is doing something" Continues "Businessmen have to stick to the rules laid out by the companies act"
"Mr Findlay is very keen to remind you to take things in context, and he is surely right " What you have to decide if there was a purpose in financial assistance other than paying the debt.
It's for the Crown to show this wasn't done in good faith, it's not for Mr Whyte to prove anything
Court adjourns for the day.

[Bostonhibby]

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Was just about to type the same - can't be far away from a Hun-team with NO Protestants !

Wonder what they'll sing then .............................

The cry was we surrendered, surrendered then we died (again)?

Sounds like another Kafflik conspiracy. Actually all down to their former board of directors and owner by the sounds of it.

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[ACLeith]

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I think Craigie's defence against the fraud charge is that he's not guilty of fraud because he didn't pretend anything to the people he's alleged to have defrauded. Are we to believe that David Murray, a peer of the realm if not quite a fragrant lady, lied when he claimed to have been duped? I do, and expect Craigie to walk away from that charge.

Why did DM not have due diligence carried out? Only one reason - he wanted to offload the club to anyone daft enough to take it on and didn't want to unearth the truth about CW.

Doesn't mean CW is innocent of course, though I heard it said from a senior person in the Legal profession that he is simply the "patsy" in all of this.

[Geo_1875]

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Why did DM not have due diligence carried out? Only one reason - he wanted to offload the club to anyone daft enough to take it on and didn't want to unearth the truth about CW.

Doesn't mean CW is innocent of course, though I heard it said from a senior person in the Legal profession that he is simply the "patsy" in all of this.

Does it matter that Murray didn't want to know and could have found out if he wanted to? I think Whyte walked into it knowing what he was doing was wrong and thought he could get away with it.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Does it matter that Murray didn't want to know and could have found out if he wanted to? I think Whyte walked into it knowing what he was doing was wrong and thought he could get away with it.

This is from Lady Stacey's summing-up:-

Directs the jury issue is not if Murray should have known, , but the practical result of pretence

I interpret that as "it's irrelevant" that he could/should have known.

[Hibs Class]

Jury sent out about an hour ago

[ACLeith]

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Does it matter that Murray didn't want to know and could have found out if he wanted to? I think Whyte walked into it knowing what he was doing was wrong and thought he could get away with it.

Think you're probably right but Murray IMO has repeatedly lied, both before and during the case. His reputation has been shot down but not as much as I would like to have seen

[Deansy]

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I think Craigie's defence against the fraud charge is that he's not guilty of fraud because he didn't pretend anything to the people he's alleged to have defrauded. Are we to believe that David Murray, a peer of the realm if not quite a fragrant lady, lied when he claimed to have been duped? I do, and expect Craigie to walk away from that charge.

If Murray sold the Hun to Sir Craig as a 'Viable business' surely it's Murray who's guilty of fraud ?