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View Poll Results: What is your attitude to a new "Rangers" entering at Div1?

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  • Opposed - and will walk away from Scottish professional football

    527 54.90%
  • Opposed - but will continue to support the game.

    414 43.13%
  • In favour.

    19 1.98%
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  1. #37261
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    Oh. Sorry.
    S'cool. This **** has more characters and subplots and twists than a John le Carré novel.....and is actually better fun than the one I'm reading just now.

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  3. #37262
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    At last, confirmation of yesterday's thoughts


    The trial continues

    Proceedings resume to hear further evidencefrom asset finance manager Phil Betts.

    Court shown an email from Craig Whyteasking Merchant Turnaround to transfer £1m to Colloyer Bristow

    Betts says he was happy to transfer themoney as Collyer Bristow only held it on a "conditional basis."

    Betts asked about a document showing a £16mloan from Rangers to Wavetower. Says he has never seen it.

    Betts agrees that when this happened (9 May 2011) he wasa director of both Rangers and Wavetower.

    AD "As a director of Rangers you approved a £16mloan to Wavetower, of which you were also a director?" Betts"According to that document"

    Betts "I don't remember signing theloan agreement, but it is my signature" AD "Do you sign documentswithout reading them?"

    AD "Do you recall who asked you tosign this document?" Betts "I don't remember signing it."

    AD "Did Wavetower have anyassets?" Betts "No"

    AD "It was club money that was beingused to pay off the Lloyds debt?" Betts "Wavetower were the owners ofRangers Football Club"

    AD "Do you see it as an issue that aclub asset is being used to pay off the debt?" Betts "The bank hadcontrol of those assets anyway"

    AD "Wavetower had no funds" Betts"The completion price was only a pound."

    Betts says deal was £27m in total, majorityTicketus money, £1m from Merchant £4.5m from Whyte.

    Betts says he first heard about Jeromepension fund in July 2011 when he saw Aidan Earley in the directors box atIbrox

    AD As a director of Wavetower did you havesight of the funds to be used? Betts "No"

    Betts on Jerome pension fund "I spoketo Gary Withey about it but can't recall the conversation"

    Betts says money was to be provided forplayers, the stadium and the tax bill "If HMRC gave us time to pay the taxbill"

    AD "Was there a desire to keep theinvolvement of Ticketus confidential?" Betts says Ticketus did not wantMurray group to know

    Adds "They were concerned the MurrayGroup would approach them for the funds and they would say no."

    AD suggests cash-flow projection given toMurray was misleading as didn't mention Ticketus




    Break
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  4. #37263
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    At last, confirmation of yesterday's thoughts


    The trial continues

    Proceedings resume to hear further evidencefrom asset finance manager Phil Betts.

    Court shown an email from Craig Whyteasking Merchant Turnaround to transfer £1m to Colloyer Bristow

    Betts says he was happy to transfer themoney as Collyer Bristow only held it on a "conditional basis."

    Betts asked about a document showing a £16mloan from Rangers to Wavetower. Says he has never seen it.

    Betts agrees that when this happened (9 May 2011) he wasa director of both Rangers and Wavetower.

    AD "As a director of Rangers you approved a £16mloan to Wavetower, of which you were also a director?" Betts"According to that document"

    Betts "I don't remember signing theloan agreement, but it is my signature" AD "Do you sign documentswithout reading them?"

    AD "Do you recall who asked you tosign this document?" Betts "I don't remember signing it."

    AD "Did Wavetower have anyassets?" Betts "No"

    AD "It was club money that was beingused to pay off the Lloyds debt?" Betts "Wavetower were the owners ofRangers Football Club"

    AD "Do you see it as an issue that aclub asset is being used to pay off the debt?" Betts "The bank hadcontrol of those assets anyway"

    AD "Wavetower had no funds" Betts"The completion price was only a pound."

    Betts says deal was £27m in total, majorityTicketus money, £1m from Merchant £4.5m from Whyte.

    Betts says he first heard about Jeromepension fund in July 2011 when he saw Aidan Earley in the directors box atIbrox

    AD As a director of Wavetower did you havesight of the funds to be used? Betts "No"

    Betts on Jerome pension fund "I spoketo Gary Withey about it but can't recall the conversation"

    Betts says money was to be provided forplayers, the stadium and the tax bill "If HMRC gave us time to pay the taxbill"

    AD "Was there a desire to keep theinvolvement of Ticketus confidential?" Betts says Ticketus did not wantMurray group to know

    Adds "They were concerned the MurrayGroup would approach them for the funds and they would say no."

    AD suggests cash-flow projection given toMurray was misleading as didn't mention Ticketus




    Break
    I'm wondering if this guy should also have been in the dock 🙄

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  5. #37264
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    I'm wondering if this guy should also have been in the dock 🙄

    Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
    Probably easier to list those who shouldn't be in the dock
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  6. #37265
    @hibs.net private member Argylehibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    At last, confirmation of yesterday's thoughts


    The trial continues


    AD "Do you see it as an issue that a club asset is being used to pay off the debt?" Betts "The bank hadcontrol of those assets anyway"


    Break
    Imagine even contemplating that they would pay off their debt using their own funds / assets rather than someone else's!

  7. #37266
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Morning pt 2

    Proceedings resume to hear further evidencefrom former Rangers' director Phil Betts.

    The Advocate Depute, Alex Prentice QC, asksif it was an issue to him that Wavetower were not providing any funds? Betts"No"

    Email to witness says deal is £20m"The reality is Wavetower will not be providing this amount, instead willcome from the club direct"

    Betts says he can't recall receiving theemail but accepts he must have.

    1. AD"Was it your understanding that Ticketus was not to be mentioned?"Donald Findlay rises to object to question. LadyStacey upholds objection
    2.
    3. Bettssays he believed there was a non-disclosure agreement but didn't see it. AD Whotold you about the NDA? Betts "He is not in the room today."
    AD: "Can I make it clear to you, you have immunity,you can't be prosecuted over this." Betts says he can't remember signingloan deal

    Betts adds "I'm a little bit stressedat the moment

    AD "Did you act on a frolic of yourown" Betts "Frolic?" AD "You just did it on your own"Betts "I don't remember

    Advocate Depute ends, Donald Findlay QCrises to cross-examine

    Findlay opens "I have no intention topry into your business affairs..but crucial jury have all the information theyneed."

    Findlay "Who has £33m in cash?"Betts "Nobody I know" DF "Possibly a gentleman from Medellin,but that might ring alarm bells" (Columbian drug cartel?)

    Findlay "Did you ever want to be thedirector of a football club?" Betts "No"

    Betts says he first found out about Whyte'splan to buy Rangers from Vincent Bull (Escrow)







    Ends (WHIT???)
    Last edited by Golden Fleece; 19-05-2017 at 02:10 PM.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  8. #37267
    Coaching Staff Iain G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Morning pt 2

    Proceedings resume to hear further evidencefrom former Rangers' director Phil Betts.

    The Advocate Depute, Alex Prentice QC, asksif it was an issue to him that Wavetower were not providing any funds? Betts"No"

    Email to witness says deal is £20m"The reality is Wavetower will not be providing this amount, instead willcome from the club direct"

    Betts says he can't recall receiving theemail but accepts he must have.

    1. AD"Was it your understanding that Ticketus was not to be mentioned?"Donald Findlay rises to object to question. LadyStacey upholds objection
    2.
    3. Bettssays he believed there was a non-disclosure agreement but didn't see it. AD Whotold you about the NDA? Betts "He is not in the room today."
    AD: "Can I make it clear to you, you have immunity,you can't be prosecuted over this." Betts says he can't remember signingloan deal

    Betts adds "I'm a little bit stressedat the moment

    AD "Did you act on a frolic of yourown" Betts "Frolic?" AD "You just did it on your own"Betts "I don't remember

    Advocate Depute ends, Donald Findlay QCrises to cross-examine

    Findlay opens "I have no intention topry into your business affairs..but crucial jury have all the information theyneed."

    Findlay "Who has £33m in cash?"Betts "Nobody I know" DF "Possibly a gentleman from Medellin,but that might ring alarm bells" (Columbian drug cartel?)

    Findlay "Did you ever want to be thedirector of a football club?" Betts "No"

    Betts says he first found out about Whyte'splan to buy Rangers from Vincent Bull (Escrow)







    Ends (WHIT???)
    They are all a bunch of liars, cowards and shysters by the sounds of this whole transcript!

    Sure they are all proper Rangers-minded people though so that's all ok

  9. #37268
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Post lunch perusings

    Proceedings resume to hear furthercross-examination from Donald Findlay QC of former Rangers' director Phil Betts

    Betts says initial proposal to Ticketus wasfor £10m towards the purchase of Rangers.

    Witness says there is nothing unusual about3rd party funding only being available once deal completed

    Findlay: "Murray gave away Rangers fora joke, a pound slid across a table"

    Findlay "A central element to all thiswas that Rangers were in debt to the bank for £18m. The debt was cleared."Betts "Yes"

    Findlay on debt repayment, "Was it notbetter to keep money in house rather than pay it in interest to the bank."Betts "Yes"

    Findlay "Wavetower could​ have writtenthe debt off?" Betts "I don't think Ticketus would have been happywith that."

    Findlay it could be said selling seasontickets in advance would cut your income, but would reduce payments to thebank"

    Findlay "Do you know much aboutfootball" Betts "I'm a Tottenham supporter" (that’ll be a no then J )

    Findlay suggests if Rangers "went deepinto the Champions League" that would overcome the sale of the seasontickets. Would be "debt free"

    Findlay "Your taking a gamble, butmany business plans involved a gamble" Betts "Correct"

    DF 'You get rid of the debt, make it moreattractive to investors and get Champions League money, that was the businessplan.'



    TBC
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  10. #37269
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Betts on the Ibrox takeover data room:"It was poor, there didn't seem to be enough in it."


    Witness says he found out about the"small tax case" at the end of a conference call with Murray Group

    Findlay "So someone said, by the wayyou owe HMRC £2.8m, have a nice weekend" Betts "Yes" J

    Findlay "Did David Grier know aboutthe Ticketus deal" Betts "Yes" Findlay "Was he any use atall?" Betts "Not particularly"

    Betts says he only found out about the"substantial increase" in the Rangers CEO's contract after thetakeover.

    Witness says was asked by Whyte to join theRangers board before the takeover. Doesn't remember signing any forms.

    Findlay "If was to spend £5m onplayers should I just wander about a public park saying 'do you want to signfor Rangers son?"

    Findlay "The bank was paid, the stadium was fixed,the tax case was appealed and players were signed."

    Findlay "Did you obtain additionalfunding?" Betts says £2m was sourced from "Close Brothers" inmid 2011.

    Findlay "It's up to people to decideif Mr Whyte's business model was better than the one before"

    "Was not a club that was hale andhearty but struggling badly..in huge debt"

    Findlay notes Rangers price reduced from£5m to £1 due to health and safety issue (£1.7m) and tax case (£2.8m) "Thatadds up to £4.5m. They just threw 500k out of the window"

    Lady Stacey intervenes "Is there aquestion in there Mr Findlay?"




    Fin

    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  11. #37270
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    And last for the week

    Proceedings resume Donald Findlay asks PhilBetts if Ticketus was a respected firm Betts "Yes"

    Findlay "Was the club in a betterposition after the deal?" Betts "Yes"

    Betts on keeping Ticketus involvementconfidential "I think most football clubs do it"

    Betts says the £2m sourced from CloseBrothers was used for "stadium repairs"

    Betts agrees the board meeting whoseminutes are dated on the Saturday was a "notional meeting"

    Betts says he would be "disappointedin himself" if he signed a document he hadn't read "at least someof"

    Findlay on paying the Ticketus money to thebank "it had to go via a fairly circuitous route?" Betts"Yes"

    Findlay "No-one would accept obviousillegality in this transaction?" Betts "No"

    Findlay ends by asking why the witness saidTicketus would have said no to Murray doing the same deal "They told meso"

    Donald Findlay ends his cross-examination.Advocate Depute rises to re-examine




    AD "Football is an emotivematter," more than just a normal business?" Betts "Yes"

    AD suggests this explains why Murray wantedassurances over what happened after club was sold. Betts agrees

    AD Asks what the witness thinks Murraywould have thought about Ticketus Findlay objects Judge allows question

    Betts "They were getting pressure fromelsewhere to complete the transaction"

    AD "They didn't get the chance becauseit was concealed from them" Ends re-examination

    AD says he should be able to close theCrown case next week, has 8 witnesses left. Court adjourns

    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  12. #37271
    The Crown has made a complete gubbins of this.They've given immunity to a succession of witnesses who then will not give the evidence that the Crown wants.Most of them sound like they're appearing for the defence.

  13. #37272
    Solipsist Eyrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancient hibee View Post
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    The Crown has made a complete gubbins of this.They've given immunity to a succession of witnesses who then will not give the evidence that the Crown wants.Most of them sound like they're appearing for the defence.
    Honour amongst thieves?
    Mature, sensible signature required for responsible position. Good prospects for the right candidate. Apply within.

  14. #37273
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancient hibee View Post
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    The Crown has made a complete gubbins of this.They've given immunity to a succession of witnesses who then will not give the evidence that the Crown wants.Most of them sound like they're appearing for the defence.
    Probably the plan all along. Another carpet lifting exercise no doubt.

  15. #37274
    First Team Regular Hibernianinc's Avatar
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    Sorry for the really basic question, but who do we want to win this?

    Rephrased, which outcome is worst for TRFC?

  16. #37275
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernianinc View Post
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    Sorry for the really basic question, but who do we want to win this?

    Rephrased, which outcome is worst for TRFC?
    If you mean the current entity, I'm not sure that there is a preferred outcome.

    There is a fanciful scenario whereby, as a result of this particular case, BDO start civil proceedings against some of the individuals involved. If that were to happen, Oldco might be in a position to buy back their assets. But that's for Series 8....we're only on Series 5.

    To answer your question, it's a bit like watching Hearts play Rangers. We want them all to kick **** out of each other....which is what is happening...and for them all to get red cards. The result is almost irrelevant



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    Last edited by CropleyWasGod; 20-05-2017 at 11:31 AM.

  17. #37276
    @hibs.net private member Stonewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancient hibee View Post
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    The Crown has made a complete gubbins of this.They've given immunity to a succession of witnesses who then will not give the evidence that the Crown wants.Most of them sound like they're appearing for the defence.
    It's beginning to look that way. I wonder how many millions this has cost/ wasted.

    fascinating stuff though.

  18. #37277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall View Post
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    It's beginning to look that way. I wonder how many millions this has cost/ wasted.

    fascinating stuff though.
    Not as big a waste as tracking down supporters that were on the pitch.

  19. #37278
    @hibs.net private member Stonewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatHead View Post
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    Not as big a waste as tracking down supporters that were on the pitch.
    The pursuit of those invading the pitch is certainly more futile, although I may re-vist that opinion if we get a not proven verdict.

  20. #37279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonewall View Post
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    The pursuit of those invading the pitch is certainly more futile, although I may re-vist that opinion if we get a not proven verdict.
    I did laugh at that but only because John Wilson got a not proven after admitting assaulting Neil Lennon.

  21. #37280
    DF will have a spring in his step for the next instalment of the CW trial.

    Might just swing things for his client!!

  22. #37281
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    a new week in the life of Craigie




    next witness for the Crown, John Newlands

    Newlands tells the court he is 62 and is a"corporate financier"

    Newlands says he raises funds for small andmedium sized enterprises Met Craig Whyte in 2010

    Newlands says he met Whyte through a PeterShakeshaft. (no giggling at the back J )

    Newlands points to Craig Whyte in court,sitting in the dock between two security staff

    The witness confirms he provided someemails to the police Advocate Depute asks for court screens to be turned on

    Letter shown to court from "City oneSecurities" to Murraym Says Liberty Capital has "up to £10m" tosupport a rights issue for Rangers

    Newlands says he wrote the letter afterWhyte told him he had assets of £60m. Wrote letter in "good faith" (now we know the definition of “Off theRadar wealth!)

    Newlands says when letter written he was"under pressure" for rent from his landlord. "Did not have thecash to meet obligations"

    Newlands says he asked Whyte for £2,100 foroffice rent bill. Jury and witness leavecourt while a legal matter is discussed.

    To be continued
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  23. #37282
    @hibs.net private member greenginger's Avatar
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    Shakeshaft ! brilliant name for character in this farce.

  24. #37283
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Live tweeting being allowed again *confused*


    Jury return to court, Advocate Depute risesto take further evidence from Mr Newlands

    Newlands confirm that in March 2011 hiscompany was at risk of eviction from its offices. Whyte offered to write acheque

    However cheque would take 3 days to clear,which would have taken too long.

    Newlands says "Craig transferred fundselectronically" to pay the rent. He then signed letter saying LibertyCapital had £30m in assets

    Newlands says he based asset letter wasbased on a draft emailed to him by Mr Whyte.

    Newlands says he does not recall seeingproof of the £10m but "would be very surprised" if he had writtenletter without seeing it.

    Donald Findlay QC for the defence rises tocross-examine Mr Newlands.

    Newlands says his company was regulated bythe Financial Conduct Authority, "They have more power than HMRC andCustoms put together" Findlay "I don't know if that scares you but itscares me...they are a wolf you wouldn't want to invite into yourhenhouse"

    Findlay "In a letter of comfort areyou guaranteeing anything?" Newlands "No"

    Findlay "If you have a friend who isshort of cash you would help them out..not a vast sum of money £2,100"Newlands agrees

    Findlay "The business in non-technicalterm was skint?" Newlands "It was a commercial transaction"

    Findlay suggests that it is understandablethat Newlands can not recall what documents he saw 6 years ago.

    Newlands says the regulator allows clientsto self-certify there level of funds. Witness ends his evidence.


    (Well, that was boring)

    Next witness Stuart McClean

    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  25. #37284
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenginger View Post
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    Shakeshaft ! brilliant name for character in this farce.
    He must've had a difficult childhood with that name
    [SIGPIC]

  26. #37285
    @hibs.net private member BonnieFitbaTeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    He must've had a difficult childhood with that name

    He's lucky he had a childhood at all given that his father is Mr. Shakeshaft !
    At Easter Road They Play.....

  27. #37286
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    He must've had a difficult childhood with that name
    Could have been so much different, imaging a letter change from h to n.

  28. #37287
    @hibs.net private member & Biggest, Funniest Slaver on hibs.net 2012 Pedantic_Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodhibs55 View Post
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    Could have been so much different, imaging a letter change from h to n.
    Shakesnaft?
    "Play for the name on the front of the jersey and the supporters will remember the name on the back"

  29. #37288
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieFitbaTeam View Post
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    He's lucky he had a childhood at all given that his father is Mr. Shakeshaft !
    [SIGPIC]

  30. #37289
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodhibs55 View Post
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    Could have been so much different, imaging a letter change from h to n.
    That's his porn name.
    [SIGPIC]

  31. #37290
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Next witness Stuart McClean

    Mr McLean tells the court he is 42 and asolicitor.

    Mclean says he joined Dundas and Wilson in2004, became a partner in 2008

    Mclean says his firm had a long termrelationship with the Murray Group of companies. Worked on sale of shareholdingin Rangers

    Mclean "The team at Murray wanted theshareholding disposed of" says he worked on the legal side of this as partof a larger team.

    Mclean says he has to "take care inhis response" due to legal privilege. Can't answer last question. Jury andwitness asked to leave court

    Jury return to court. Lady Stacey tellswitness, Mr Mclean, that she understands his obligation of confidentiality but Notescourt has heard from David Murray and other witnesses, directs Mclean legalprivilege has effectively been waived

    Mclean is directed to answer questionsrelating to sale of Rangers shares unless there is an objection or judgeintervenes.

    Mclean says that he still has"difficulties" over discussing interactions with clients. LadyStacey: "If you are in doubt please let me know

    Mclean says this was his first involvementin the sale of a football club.

    Advocate Depute asks what Murray wanted toachieve with the sale of Rangers Mclean refers to Share Purchase Agreement

    Mclean asked about Andrew Ellis. Witnesssays he expressed interest in buying Rangers in 2010 Doesn't recall if therewas a meeting.

    Mclean says he became aware of Craig Whyteafter Ellis organised a meeting with him and David Murray in the South ofFrance.

    Says his firm provided a"chaperone" for the first Whyte/Murray meeting

    Mclean asked if he thought Whyte's offerwas "serious" Lady Stacey intervenes and says would not be for thiswitness to judge that

    Mclean, "Questions were asked aboutthe funding," of the bid Says letters were received from solicitorsColloyer Bristow.

    Witness shown email to him by solicitorGary Withey, October 2010. Says Liberty Capital hold sufficient funds for theacquisition of shares

    Says funds are held in a UK bank account and are"under the direct control" of LCL Adds "The assets of targetwill not be used for the borrowings of bidco"

    Mclean, "I took the email at facevalue."

    Court showing Mclean's reply to Witheyemail. Says Murray requires "additional certainty" on funds availableto "bidco"

    Mclean says at this point the"Enterprise value" of Rangers was £33m, debt was £27m, so price forshares being discussed £5.5n

    Mclean email notes the financialinstitution backing Whyte "remained anonymous" AD "Did youask" Mclean "This indicates we did"

    Court adjourns for lunch

    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

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