Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Seveno]

If anyone is looking for a good investment opportunity, I'm setting up a scheme that will buy off-licences in wee towns up and down Scotland. I am confident that I'll get them cheap and then reap the benefits when the Hun hordes descend on these sleepy hamlets to watch RFC2 in their titanic struggle through the leagues.

[CropleyWasGod]

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If anyone is looking for a good investment opportunity, I'm setting up a scheme that will buy off-licences in wee towns up and down Scotland. I am confident that I'll get them cheap and then reap the benefits when the Hun hordes descend on these sleepy hamlets to watch RFC2 in their titanic struggle through the leagues.

Your insurance premiums will outweigh your income.

I'm out.

[jgl07]

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The use of an EBT as a tax avoidance device was widespread, it was not just used by football clubs. Given that this device may have been used by very large, as well as medium to small, businesses I would be astonished if HMRC will concede principal and do any public deal. I'd guess that any tax lost by Rangers going into liquidation would be dwarfed by the loss of tax within the wider business community if such a deal was done.

I also doubt any first tier decision in the Rangers case could set a precedent as it would appear that Rangers may not have followed the EBT "rules", i.e. if contractual payments were found to have been made via the EBT this is enough for HMRC to win. Normally you would not expect to find such a blatant abuse of the rules. The Rangers case would then stand apart from others.

As I understand things the use of EBT was supposed to apply for overseas earnings. The likes of t-shirts with pictures of the player sold in the Far East. It was never supposed to cover for earnings in the UK. The first clubs to use EBTs such as Chelsea could have some sort of a case but Rangers do not have a hope. I Personally do not see replica shirts with 'Kyle Lafferty' on the back selling well very in Singapore or Hong Kong. As for t-shirts with an image of Ally McCoist on the front, these would only fit Sumo Wrestlers!

HMRC are putting a public image of being open to suggestions and flexible as they have to be. However I suspect they would regard the liquidation of Rangers as a major win 'pour encourager les autres'. Rangers were once regarded as the richest club, not just in Scotland but in the UK. They would be massive coup for HMRC and would send a message to the Portsmouth's of this world that tax has to be paid.

[Peevemor]

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I suspect what happened was that the money was put in an escrow account (as described much earlier on this thread, but I forget by who) and only passed to CW (or more accurately the holding company) after he had handed over his shiny pound coin to Sir Dave (who of course was totally oblivious to what was happening).

"Escrow" is how the French word for "crook" is pronounced.

[CropleyWasGod]

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As I understand things the use of EBT was supposed to apply for overseas earnings. The likes of t-shirts with pictures of the player sold in the Far East. It was never supposed to cover for earnings in the UK. The first clubs to use EBTs such as Chelsea could have some sort of a case but Rangers do not have a hope. I Personally do not see replica shirts with 'Kyle Lafferty' on the back selling well very in Singapore or Hong Kong. As for t-shirts with an image of Ally McCoist on the front, these would only fit Sumo Wrestlers!

HMRC are putting a public image of being open to suggestions and flexible as they have to be. However I suspect they would regard the liquidation of Rangers as a major win 'pour encourager les autres'. Rangers were once regarded as the richest club, not just in Scotland but in the UK. They would be massive coup for HMRC and would send a message to the Portsmouth's of this world that tax has to be paid.

A client of mine, in property in the UK, told me recently that, some years ago, they had a meeting with "a friend of a friend who was involved with Rangers" who could "save them a lot of tax". The substance of the meeting, they now realise, was to sell them the benefits of an EBT. Thankfully, they took the view that "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is", and rejected the sales pitch.

How many, though, took that route?

[Seveno]

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Your insurance premiums will outweigh your income.

I'm out.

No problem, Deborah.

Duncan is backing me. He has offered to have one of his security guard companies looking after each of the various premises as the occasion demands.

Meanwhile, his ice cream van business is doing very well following the smeltic fans around the country.

[alfie]

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We've had yesterday's statement from the SFA, but we still have the SPL's statement to come (not sure when?). This will be dealing with the dual contracts which are alleged to have taken place. If they are found guilty, then sanctions will follow. If the SPL don't impose sanctions which are acceptable to the other SPL member clubs, can the other clubs walk away from the SPL? Clearly next weeks meeting of the "gang of ten" isn't for the benefit of either half of the OF.

Is it looking like the other the clubs will be imposing changes, ie revenue distribution and the voting structure in return for letting the OF remain in the SPL, or maybe even dissolving the SPL and setting up a new league structure?

Perhaps the gang of 10 are planning to force the SFL and SPL to merge quicker than planned (or more simply shutdown the SPL) with the agreement to drop down into an SFL with a better distribution of any funds from sponsorship or tv rights.

I get the feeling that the Tache and his fellow tight-fisted chairmen are sick of the duopoly in the SPL and want to see things change pronto, and that doesn't mean bending over backwards to help RFC out of the position they have got themselves into.

Send the remnants to the bottom of the third division!

[ancienthibby]

I see that Caley Thistle are saying that RFC have paid them £25k out of £40k outstanding.

Suggests to me even wholesale players cuts at 75% will not balance the cash flow.

[BarneyK]

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It is assumed this will buy the time to get to the end of the season and the opening of the transfer window when the likes of Whittakar and Wallace will be moved on.

Aye fair enough, but the buyers dinnae want to have to be shelling out for a whole new squad - Paul Murray has said that himself, he wants the same squad moving forward. A mass exodus due to an inability to pay the squad is not what they are looking for.

[Andy74]

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Aye fair enough, but the buyers dinnae want to have to be shelling out for a whole new squad - Paul Murray has said that himself, he wants the same squad moving forward. A mass exodus due to an inability to pay the squad is not what they are looking for.

But they will have to pay them and they are losing £1m per month on that basis. I presume they also can't be too keen on covering the loss so this is what I don't get about allowing this to still be in the business, temporarily cut down now or not.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Aye fair enough, but the buyers dinnae want to have to be shelling out for a whole new squad - Paul Murray has said that himself, he wants the same squad moving forward. A mass exodus due to an inability to pay the squad is not what they are looking for.

I suspect that, as each player signs a deal today that entitles him to leave on his own terms, the price the Knights are prepared to pay edges just that little bit downward.

[BarneyK]

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I see that Caley Thistle are saying that RFC have paid them £25k out of £40k outstanding.

Suggests to me even wholesale players cuts at 75% will not balance the cash flow.

They are due piles of cash to various clubs. They haven't paid for Cellik yet either.

[BarneyK]

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I suspect that, as each player signs a deal today that entitles him to leave on his own terms, the price the Knights are prepared to pay edges just that little bit downward.

It just seems bizarre that any buyer does so to willingly inherit a squad he cannot afford. In the case of Murray, he is going out of his way to insist upon a squad he can't afford.

[CropleyWasGod]

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It just seems bizarre that any buyer does so to willingly inherit a squad he cannot afford. In the case of Murray, he is going out of his way to insist upon a squad he can't afford.

As Graham Spiers said, the same Paul Murray who asked "who would buy Rangers with the BTC hanging over him?".

Is he posturing? Or is he the front-man for a cabal of SDM-era Huns who have the £100m that is needed?

He's not stupid, though. Is he?

[Seveno]

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It just seems bizarre that any buyer does so to willingly inherit a squad he cannot afford. In the case of Murray, he is going out of his way to insist upon a squad he can't afford.

Maybe Murray is just assembling his bid for post-liquidation but trying to look the good guy meantime.

Unless there are some rich Arab Hun supporters, I cannot see a serious purchaser emerging.

[calmac12000]

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As Graham Spiers said, the same Paul Murray who asked "who would buy Rangers with the BTC hanging over him?".

Is he posturing? Or is he the front-man for a cabal of SDM-era Huns who have the £100m that is needed?

He's not stupid, though. Is he?

It appears to me that the usual suspects are trying to create their own version of reality, which will no doubt convince the knuckle dragging majority who follow that manky mob. However, to anyone with even a modicum of intelect it is clear that Castle Greyskull's foundations are excedingly shaky

[banchoryhibs]

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As I understand things the use of EBT was supposed to apply for overseas earnings. The likes of t-shirts with pictures of the player sold in the Far East. It was never supposed to cover for earnings in the UK. The first clubs to use EBTs such as Chelsea could have some sort of a case but Rangers do not have a hope. I Personally do not see replica shirts with 'Kyle Lafferty' on the back selling well very in Singapore or Hong Kong. As for t-shirts with an image of Ally McCoist on the front, these would only fit Sumo Wrestlers!

HMRC are putting a public image of being open to suggestions and flexible as they have to be. However I suspect they would regard the liquidation of Rangers as a major win 'pour encourager les autres'. Rangers were once regarded as the richest club, not just in Scotland but in the UK. They would be massive coup for HMRC and would send a message to the Portsmouth's of this world that tax has to be paid.

You are confusing EBTs with the marketing of image rights and how earnings from such rights are taxed on players who are not domiciled in the UK. In brief a foreign player could claim that any income arising from his name / image abroad was not income earned in the UK thus was not taxable here.

EBTs are a widespread device used across the board and claim to ensure that monies lent to individuals through various offshore trusts do not attract tax. HMRC beg to differ!

I don't disagree with your take on the message that HMRC would sent to "les autres"

[green glory]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/inde...ntry1059852010

This is new. Tickets behind the Blue Knights?

[CropleyWasGod]

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http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/inde...ntry1059852010

This is new. Tickets behind the Blue Knights?

Knee-jerk reaction is that, because those on that forum don't like, I like.

More to follow....

[CropleyWasGod]

One of the conditions I thought PM would attach to his/the consortium deal was a guarantee about the Ticketus deal being avoided. As I said earlier, there's no way the admins could give such a guarantee.

However, this is a new twist. Get into bed with one of the flies in the ointment, to mix a couple of metaphors.

If it works, the only other major condition PM would ask for is that the deal is subject to the BTC going RFC's way.

I think.

[StevieC]

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Aye fair enough, but the buyers dinnae want to have to be shelling out for a whole new squad - Paul Murray has said that himself, he wants the same squad moving forward. A mass exodus due to an inability to pay the squad is not what they are looking for.

I'm getting the impression that the demands this Paul Murray is making is on the basis of being a Rangers supporter and wanting the best team on the park during administration. False hope and promises on the basis that the team isn't sold and they can still compete with Celtc for their two remaining games.



If he's really interested in the business is he wanting a company that is going to bleed him out of £3m of his own cash during the close season??

[johnrebus]

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Knee-jerk reaction is that, because those on that forum don't like, I like.

More to follow....

More to follow, follow, surely?

[CropleyWasGod]

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I'm getting the impression that the demands this Paul Murray is making is on the basis of being a Rangers supporter and wanting the best team on the park during administration. False hope and promises on the basis that the team isn't sold and they can still compete with Celtc for their two remaining games.



If he's really interested in the business is he wanting a company that is going to bleed him out of £3m of his own cash during the close season??

Keep up, Stevie boy, you're 5 minutes out of date.

It's Ticketus' cash he's spending now

[StevieC]

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However, this is a new twist. Get into bed with one of the flies in the ointment, to mix a couple of metaphors.

Exactly.

I get the impression that this (if true) is desperation from Ticketus who must be genuinely worried that they are close to getting "bumped" for £24m.
By being a major shareholder in any "new" Rangers it gives them a fighting chance of ensuring that they'll get their season ticket contract honoured.

[CentreLine]

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Exactly.

I get the impression that this (if true) is desperation from Ticketus who must be genuinely worried that they are close to getting "bumped" for £24m.
By being a major shareholder in any "new" Rangers it gives them a fighting chance of ensuring that they'll get their season ticket contract honoured.

Or parhaps they have been offered shares and a seat at the top table in place of theor money?????

[Seveno]

I wish that Rod would hurry up and get on to Ticketus to get some of this free cash while it is still going.

[StevieC]

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Keep up, Stevie boy, you're 5 minutes out of date.

It's Ticketus' cash he's spending now

Keep up? I lost track of things days ago.

Even the guy that was doing the scotslawthoughts website is 3 days behind!

[CropleyWasGod]

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Exactly.

I get the impression that this (if true) is desperation from Ticketus who must be genuinely worried that they are close to getting "bumped" for £24m.
By being a major shareholder in any "new" Rangers it gives them a fighting chance of ensuring that they'll get their season ticket contract honoured.

It seems a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, though.

They are an investment company. They know that investment in football clubs rarely works. They have their own little niche, which works, but this is different.

Other than protecting their £24m., I am not sure what is in this for them. And how much are they putting in to protect that investment?


As an aside, my gut is reminding me that one of the Ticketus directors is the owner of Close Finance, who have the famous "pie security" at Ibrox. I am not sure if this is significant... it's Friday afternoon, my brain is fried.

[Andy74]

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One of the conditions I thought PM would attach to his/the consortium deal was a guarantee about the Ticketus deal being avoided. As I said earlier, there's no way the admins could give such a guarantee.

However, this is a new twist. Get into bed with one of the flies in the ointment, to mix a couple of metaphors.

If it works, the only other major condition PM would ask for is that the deal is subject to the BTC going RFC's way.

I think.

Getting into bed with an oiled up fly eh.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Or parhaps they have been offered shares and a seat at the top table in place of theor money?????

At £24m, that's a helluva good seat.

Is it a recliner?


Having shares in RFC wouldn't satisfy their investors. I can't see that....